Pagan Festival Causes Tension

Haruko · Post by **Haruko** » 2005-10-06 04:34pm

The following is a reprinting of what I read in the Oct. 6 edition of The Sun newspaper, more specifically page 3.

The Sun wrote:The small eastern plains town of Ramah, Colo., is simmering with religious tension after a pagan group rented out the American Legion Hall for a festival on Halloween weekend. A Baptist minister tried to rally the town board to stop the gathering, and one woman is circulating a petition demanding that the festival be stopped. Other residents call the situation a witch hunt targeting those with different beliefs and are sarcastically referring to their town as Salem. In August, the Secret Garden Coven decided to hold a fall festival as a fundraiser for St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital. Organizer Jerusha Doucette-Johnson said a ritual consists of facing different directions, lighting candles, honoring those who have died and giving thanks for loved ones. There's no violence. Ramah is named for an Israeli town in the Old Testament.

It's good that some people there realize this tension for what it is.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2005-10-06 04:59pm

The fact it's in my own state pisses me off, but the fact that it's described as a "plains town" explains the vast majority of it right there.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2005-10-08 08:13am

I don't suppose this is a good time to remind these Christians that freedom of religion does not equal freedom to choose Christianity. Or if that fails how about telling them that we need to let them have use of Legion Hall to "preserve balance", and let both sides be heard. On second thought such irony and logical arguments would most probably not make a dent in their WoI.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2005-10-08 09:41am

General Zod wrote:The fact it's in my own state pisses me off, but the fact that it's described as a "plains town" explains the vast majority of it right there.

You aren't encouraged by this?

Other residents call the situation a witch hunt targeting those with different beliefs and are sarcastically referring to their town as Salem.

At least the entire town isn't marching in lockstep with the nutbars.

PrinceofLowLight · Post by **PrinceofLowLight** » 2005-10-08 02:57pm

Haruko wrote:Other residents call the situation a witch hunt

I like it when a metaphor works literally and metaphorically.

"Man, that crocodile is a cold-blooded predator!"

Post by **Dalton** » 2005-10-08 03:26pm

I think what's scariest about this is how these people actually believe in witchcraft. You'd probably be able to scare 'em to death by waggling your fingers and saying "Boo!"

Really, just a bunch of darkly ironic hypocrisy.

SecondToDie · Post by **SecondToDie** » 2005-10-08 03:26pm

I'm surprised these fundies aren't trying to ban Halloween itself instead of just pagan celebrations on Halloween.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2005-10-09 12:24am

SecondToDie wrote:I'm surprised these fundies aren't trying to ban Halloween itself instead of just pagan celebrations on Halloween.

Perhaps because they realise, how ever much they want to deny it, that Christmas also originated in "pagan" traditions?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-10-09 12:56am

Lord of the Farce wrote:
SecondToDie wrote:I'm surprised these fundies aren't trying to ban Halloween itself instead of just pagan celebrations on Halloween.
Perhaps because they realise, how ever much they want to deny it, that Christmas also originated in "pagan" traditions?

"Then why is it called 'Christmas'?"

darthdavid · Post by **darthdavid** » 2005-10-09 01:00am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Lord of the Farce wrote:
SecondToDie wrote:I'm surprised these fundies aren't trying to ban Halloween itself instead of just pagan celebrations on Halloween.
Perhaps because they realise, how ever much they want to deny it, that Christmas also originated in "pagan" traditions?
"Then why is it called 'Christmas'?"

I do so hope you're joking...

Metatwaddle · Post by **Metatwaddle** » 2005-10-09 01:06am

I think that's what the quotes are for.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-10-09 05:23am

"Christmas" as far as it being a mass to celebrate the birth of Christ (hence the name), is not Pagan but Catholic. However, if shepherds were "watching their flocks by night" then it wasn't winter but spring that the birth occured - in other words, Christ would have been born closer to Easter than Solstice. One theory is that the early church "moved" the birth of Christ to the Solstice to replace a Pagan holiday celebrating the rebirth of the Sun God. Is that true? Quite likely, but seeing as it's 4 am, I just woke up, and I haven't had a full cup of caffeine yet I'm not sure I'm coherent enough to go about supporting that claim at the moment.

There are, by the way, lots of Christians in the US who do feel that "freedom of religion" means only the freedom to choose one or another brand of Christianity.

There are Christians who try to ban even the most innocuous Halloween celebrations/decorations/whatever. They're the same crowd who also want to ban Christmas trees and Santa Claus as "pagan" trappings - which, at least for the Christmas trees, is definitely true and probably for old Santa as well. Some of 'em also want to ban the gift-giving, and while I agree the gift thing can be and often is done to excess, that is not Pagan but rather in imitation of the Gifts of the Magi at the birth of Christ (whatever season it happened)

And yeah, it's surprisingly easy to scare this variety of "nutbar" but the downside is that when they're present in numbers they can be really annoying to actually dangerous

Duckie · Post by **Duckie** » 2005-10-09 11:10am

I'm not sure on the specifics of Christmas but I've seen comments both parody and serious alike that the Pagan Winter Solstice in question was called Saturnalia (or at least in whatever language that's in...).

The Church already had moved or would move the Sabbath to appeal to Sun Worshippers, shanghaiing a major Pagan festival sounds extremely likely.

(Incidentally, I've never gottne the debate over banning Halloween or especiall Santa Claus. The man's name is a bastardization of Saint Nicholas. Saint. He's a Frelling Saint.)

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-10-09 11:35am

MRDOD wrote:(Incidentally, I've never gottne the debate over banning Halloween or especiall Santa Claus. The man's name is a bastardization of Saint Nicholas. Saint. He's a Frelling Saint.)

Well it's mainly fundie protestants that are calling for his banning. Saying he's a saint is not going to appease them because the Catholic church is, of course, the anti-Christ...

As for Halloween, it's a holiday about witches and ghosts and monsters and so forth so how could a fundy not want to ban it. It's not godly!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-10-09 11:47am

Broomstick wrote:"Christmas" as far as it being a mass to celebrate the birth of Christ (hence the name), is not Pagan but Catholic. However, if shepherds were "watching their flocks by night" then it wasn't winter but spring that the birth occured - in other words, Christ would have been born closer to Easter than Solstice. One theory is that the early church "moved" the birth of Christ to the Solstice to replace a Pagan holiday celebrating the rebirth of the Sun God. Is that true? Quite likely, but seeing as it's 4 am, I just woke up, and I haven't had a full cup of caffeine yet I'm not sure I'm coherent enough to go about supporting that claim at the moment.

The Winter Solstice festival has been celebrated for thousands of years and just happens to be right around Christmas.

Star Wars Fan · Post by **Star Wars Fan** » 2005-10-09 12:09pm

SecondToDie wrote:I'm surprised these fundies aren't trying to ban Halloween itself instead of just pagan celebrations on Halloween.

they will. with the right-wing, the Evangelicals, etc. getting stronger, they'll try

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-10-09 02:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Winter Solstice festival has been celebrated for thousands of years and just happens to be right around Christmas.

Not quite; the Christianity rising in Rome decided to set it in the middle of the Roman festival of Saturnalia, for PR. 'Uh, you won't get the old god's festival.. But that's okay because that's when we celebrate, too!'. No coincidence, just recruiting sheep.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-10-09 02:36pm

Not quite; the Christianity rising in Rome decided to set it in the middle of the Roman festival of Saturnalia, for PR. 'Uh, you won't get the old god's festival.. But that's okay because that's when we celebrate, too!'. No coincidence, just recruiting sheep.

I think it's time to change the batteries on the Sarcasm Detector.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2005-10-09 02:42pm

The Catholic Church is in all liklihood more like an ancient Pagan faith than modern Neo-Pagan religion is. It certainly gets the bureaucratic and highly political orientation of the old temple priesthoods just right.

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2005-10-09 04:56pm

...Just a few years ago, it was just another snake cult, now those cursed towers have spread to every city...

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-10-09 07:04pm

MRDOD wrote:(Incidentally, I've never gottne the debate over banning Halloween or especiall Santa Claus. The man's name is a bastardization of Saint Nicholas. Saint. He's a Frelling Saint.)

It might be more transparent when you learn that the Norse god Odin used to sneak down chimneys and leave presents in the shoes of sons of the household.

There was a Catholic St. Nicholas... who was syncretized with some of the attributes of Odin. The Catholic church was very fond of blurring the lines between saints and Old Gods. Most Catholics either don't know or have forgotten that, but the "Protestant Fundies" have not.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The Catholic Church is in all liklihood more like an ancient Pagan faith than modern Neo-Pagan religion is. It certainly gets the bureaucratic and highly political orientation of the old temple priesthoods just right.

"Pagan" originally referred to the religion of the countryside, not the urban temples. Somewhat along the lines of "oh, those quaint hicks". Twasn't bureaucratic at all. Demoting the old urban temples to the status of a hick, country-bumpkin religion was part of the powergrab by the Catholics.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2005-10-09 08:52pm

"Pagan" originally referred to the religion of the countryside, not the urban temples. Somewhat along the lines of "oh, those quaint hicks". Twasn't bureaucratic at all. Demoting the old urban temples to the status of a hick, country-bumpkin religion was part of the powergrab by the Catholics.

I don't disagree, and should have probably specified the broader term "polytheist".

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2005-10-09 09:13pm

Santa Claus will kick your ass if you suggest he is a Pagan. Everyone knows Santa switched to Scientology shortley after his stardom from Rudolph, and Frosty the Snowman. Now tread carefully, lest you get Santa's mighty E-meter of Justice!

Il Saggiatore · Post by **Il Saggiatore** » 2005-10-10 08:39am

SirNitram wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The Winter Solstice festival has been celebrated for thousands of years and just happens to be right around Christmas.
Not quite; the Christianity rising in Rome decided to set it in the middle of the Roman festival of Saturnalia, for PR. 'Uh, you won't get the old god's festival.. But that's okay because that's when we celebrate, too!'. No coincidence, just recruiting sheep.

And during the Saturnalia the Romans used to exchange gifts.

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Pagan Festival Causes Tension

Pagan Festival Causes Tension

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