Battle of Endor Numbers

Star Wars Fan · Post by **Star Wars Fan** » 2005-10-10 08:12pm

el blanco wrote:Is there any reliable reference to the size of the two fleets. I thought the novel mentioned that the Rebels held the actual numbers advantage, but I don't have it with me.

yes, ignoring the Death Star and its' fighter support, the alliance had the advantage

Summary
Imperial fleet
~40 (most likely 22) Imperator-class Star Destroyers (ISD-Is and ISD-IIs, 1,600 meters)
At least 1 Tector-class Star Destroyer (1,600 meters)
1 Star Cruiser (communication ship, unknown class) (~6,000 meters)
1 Executor-class Star Dreadnought (17,600+ meters)
At least 700 TIE fighters (probably several thousand)
At least 150 TIE Interceptors (probably several thousand)
At least 150 TIE bombers
At least 12 TIE Defenders
Death Star II
One planet-destroying superlaser
At least 30,000 turbolasers on the surface
Thousands of ion cannons and tractor beams
[edit]Rebel Fleet
At least 3 Home One-class Star Cruisers (3,800 meters)
at least 22 Mon Calamari Star Cruisers (various classes, ~1500 meters)
At least 10 Nebulon-B escort frigates (300 meters)
~100 CR90 Corellian Corvettes (~150 meters)
~100 GR-75 Medium Transports (90 meters)
At least one Bulk Cruiser
At least one Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser
At least one Corellian Gunship
At least one Quasar Fire-class bulk cruiser
At least one Assault Frigate
At least one Action VI Transport
At least 500 Rebel starfighters (various types)

http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/The_Battle_of_Endor

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-10-10 08:15pm

Continued from Here

Imperator Galacticus · Post by **Imperator Galacticus** » 2005-10-10 10:36pm

Interestingly enough, the Empire didn't consider it likely that they would need Interdictor cruisers there. Could it be possible some where present but only further out from the battle area? Or was the Emperor so confident that his ships could destroy the Rebellion before they jumped back into lightspeed?

Since some of those Mon Cal cruisers are surely able to put up a fight against an ISD long enough to escape (and also surely the ones you want to keep place), it seems improbable to me that the Emperor would risk letting the Rebellion escape that time by relying on his fleet's competence alone. Is there any word on this from the EU?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-10-10 10:36pm

Woah woah woah, since when did the Rebels have THREE Home One's (every source I've seen says they were unique)?

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2005-10-10 11:02pm

There is only one Home One. However, there may be more than one ship in the same class as Home One, just as there is more than one ship in the same class as Executor.

Xess · Post by **Xess** » 2005-10-10 11:06pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:There is only one Home One. However, there may be more than one ship in the same class as Home One, just as there is more than one ship in the same class as Executor.

I recall seeing another Home One-class get superlasered in the battle. It always confused me as Ackbar survived.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-10-11 12:53am

every source I've seen says they were unique

Nope, at least three individual Home One-type ships can be seen, with one being blown up by the DS.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-10-11 01:42am

VT-16 wrote:
every source I've seen says they were unique
Nope, at least three individual Home One-type ships can be seen, with one being blown up by the DS.

Indeed. It appears that The imperial force was already stacked in the Imps favor before you factor in the Death Star. Remember the Emporer must have been working on the assumtion that they would try and survive and employ normal tactics against the Imperial fleet. Since the Rebels did not it made it much harder for the Death Star tto had the fleet the death nail it wass suppose to. Ackbar himself said "we will not last long against those Star Destroyers."

I think the hope was also that the rebels, thanks to the jamming, would rush in to attack and then they would further dilute their forces by smashing into the energy shield. Thanks to Lando that did not happen.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-10-11 02:00am

The most reliable count of ISDs is ~31 it appears that there are 22 from the VHS, but with the WS DVD it shows there were over 30. Blame it on fullscreen pan-and-scan.
The Imperial fleet was to hold the Rebels there trapping them against the DSII similar to the way the Republic fleet held the Separatists at Coruscant. Which begs the question of why the Empire didn't forsee the battle degenerating into the point-blank melee it became, considering what happened at Coruscant.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-10-11 02:08am

NRS Guardian wrote:The Imperial fleet was to hold the Rebels there trapping them against the DSII similar to the way the Republic fleet held the Separatists at Coruscant. Which begs the question of why the Empire didn't forsee the battle degenerating into the point-blank melee it became, considering what happened at Coruscant.

I'd say it was arrogance, Palpatine probaly didn't belive that the rebels would try such a stunt, but rather try to escape by punching a "hole" to the imperial fleet (at short range it's possible heavier gun on MonCals couldn't be used in in full capacy).

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » 2005-10-11 05:26am

Xess wrote:I recall seeing another Home One-class get superlasered in the battle. It always confused me as Ackbar survived.

The Mon Cal cruiser that was destroyed by the first blast from the Death Star was NOT of the same design as the Home One. Rather it was a Type II class Mon Cal cruiser. Apocryphal sources (the PC game X-Wing Alliance) identifies that ship to be the Liberty

Home One appears to be a heavily modified and larger version of the Type I variant of the Mon Cal cruiser. The Type I does not have wings, while the Type II does (as can be seen in the destroyed ship in ROTJ).

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-10-11 05:35am

there's another Moncal destroyed at Endor and it's "home-One" or "Indepence" type (some sources call this ship the Maria) not "Liberty-type" and the story of XWA is canon (and so is the name "Liberty")

Grandmaster Jogurt · Post by **Grandmaster Jogurt** » 2005-10-11 12:38pm

Order 66 wrote:[snip]

Home One appears to be a heavily modified and larger version of the Type I variant of the Mon Cal cruiser. The Type I does not have wings, while the Type II does (as can be seen in the destroyed ship in ROTJ).

By "Type I" do you mean the wingless variant of the 1.2 km Mon Cal ships? If so, how would any amount of "heavy modifications" account for tripling the length of the ship and changing the hull design entirely? Why would there be other ships that look identical?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-10-11 01:38pm

Look this is fairly simple, there were three main Mon Cal designs present at Endor:

The two 1.2 km cruisers, where one type had wings and the other did not, but had an extra engine.

The Home One-type ships, three of which are known.

(There were possibly others glimpsed as well, but these were in the far distance and difficult to categorize).

Star Wars Fan · Post by **Star Wars Fan** » 2005-10-11 01:52pm

Lord Revan wrote:
NRS Guardian wrote:The Imperial fleet was to hold the Rebels there trapping them against the DSII similar to the way the Republic fleet held the Separatists at Coruscant. Which begs the question of why the Empire didn't forsee the battle degenerating into the point-blank melee it became, considering what happened at Coruscant.
They said that it was very new (with the bigger warships) and in some cases, weren't battle lines formed over Coruscant (when Anakin,Obi-wan and the ARC-170s engaged the Vulture fighters, you could see a line, somewhat.

I'd say it was arrogance, Palpatine probaly didn't belive that the rebels would try such a stunt, but rather try to escape by punching a "hole" to the imperial fleet (at short range it's possible heavier gun on MonCals couldn't be used in in full capacy).
XWA said that the Rebels tried that

"engage the Imperial fleet at point blank range and attempt to make a hole through which we would escape" or something like that

Interestingly enough, the Empire didn't consider it likely that they would need Interdictor cruisers there.

someone said they were present, but in the outer system, blocking hyperspace lanes

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-10-11 03:20pm

well this was a win or die battle for the Rebels.

If they do not manage to blow up the Death Star then with its new design this Death Star would be almost immune to attack. perhaps Ackbar thought that they should try to escape after they saw that the Death Star Was opperational. It appearts the size of the fleet they mustered was geared towards the assumption that the Death Star was just a big bullseye in this battle. So they did not bring as many ships as they could have brought. The rebels could simply not afford to let this Death Star be completed.

Star Wars Fan · Post by **Star Wars Fan** » 2005-10-11 05:07pm

So they did not bring as many ships as they could have brought. The rebels could simply not afford to let this Death Star be completed.

they said this was the Entire Rebel Fleet

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-10-11 05:40pm

I still don't believe the Mon Calamari would use all their warships on this assault and leave their territories defenseless.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2005-10-11 05:46pm

Star Wars Fan wrote:they said this was the Entire Rebel Fleet

It seems practically impossible that the entire fleet would show up, as it is doubtful that 100% can be mustered at any one given time. That is a statement best taken with some skepticism.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-10-11 06:51pm

VT-16 wrote:I still don't believe the Mon Calamari would use all their warships on this assault and leave their territories defenseless.

I'm not so sure. Think, if the Alliance had lost the battle, it would be pretty obvious where they were getting all of their material and fleet strength from. No doubt, the Emperor would order the Cal homeworld immolated, and whatever fleet left to defend the planet would likely be swiftly overwhelmed. It would be better to just throw your entire force into the effort and increase your chances of victory, because if you lose, your homeworld is gone.

Hedgehog's Roommate · Post by **Hedgehog's Roommate** » 2005-10-11 06:58pm

Vader speaks of the fleet massing at Sullust.

IIRC the rebels massed either half or slightly more than half at Sullust. While the rest went to Endor.

Also the Endor fleet was supposed to be made up of many of their heavy hitters.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-10-11 07:14pm

Um, the fleet massing at Sullust was the Endor strike force. The novelization makes that clear.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-10-12 12:39am

Imperator Galacticus wrote:Interestingly enough, the Empire didn't consider it likely that they would need Interdictor cruisers there. Could it be possible some where present but only further out from the battle area? Or was the Emperor so confident that his ships could destroy the Rebellion before they jumped back into lightspeed?

Yes. They were present at the outer fringes of the system, along with the rest of the sector fleet, as per Truce at Bakura sourcebook

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-10-12 01:14am

Think, if the Alliance had lost the battle, it would be pretty obvious where they were getting all of their material and fleet strength from. No doubt, the Emperor would order the Cal homeworld immolated, and whatever fleet left to defend the planet would likely be swiftly overwhelmed.

Only thing is, the Empire got kicked out of Mon Cal space some time before Endor, so they know they're hostile anyway, yet couldn't/wouldn't re-conquer them.

And going by the Alliance mindset, the mission seemed to be relatively easy. I can understand amassing a huge fleet just in case, but everything you've got? I dunno, just feels more like minimalism to me, even if the Alliance is underpowered no matter what.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2005-10-12 03:55pm

Only thing is, the Empire got kicked out of Mon Cal space some time before Endor, so they know they're hostile anyway, yet couldn't/wouldn't re-conquer them.

Well, after the destruction of DS1 many worlds were in open rebellion, or at least growing hostile to the Empire. By some sources the Empire had lost the majority of the Outer Rim by the time of Endor. Its not to difficult to understand why Palpatine would give the Mon Cal a temporary pass; while focusing on securing the Core ward regions of the Galaxy.

As I recall the planet Mon Cal threw their support in with the rebellion practically on the eve of the Endor battle. Sure they provide some ships and personell to the rebellion on the sly as early as prior to ANH. But they don't openly support them for nearly three years after.

Oh, and the three Home-one type vessels are named in the SW CCG as well.[/list]