Modern tank vs Mobile Suit, serious calcs included.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Because they are using the Visuals = canon which is greater then physics bull shit again. Backing it up with a false deliemia fallacy.

[SAMAS]

SAMAS, thanks for the general backup. If you'd be so kind, could you put up screenies of the Zaku's foot 'walking' over Shiro? (Further prove point about foot size)

Actually, that pic's a little vague, as you never really see the Foot and Shiro at the same time.

But here's a scene of Michael doing some maintenance on Shiro's Gundam.

http://samas.freehosting.net/MSFoot1.jpg

Another pic, with some better light.

http://samas.freehosting.net/MSFoot2.jpg

And here are the Zakus standing in the village.

http://samas.freehosting.net/MSFoot3.jpg

I had one with a close-up of a Zaku's foot right next to a villager, but it was too big. I can E-mail it to you, if you like.

[SAMAS]

Since neither you, nor Sea Skimmer, nor MKSheppard, nor Howedar have put up any viable counter arguments backed with calculations/physics whatsoever to refute my major point

We don't need to. And besides, we've gone onto other things, like playing
Hearts of Iron, while you whack off to your Mechas......

BTW, care to explain how your 120mm Machineguns have no visible recoil,
yet can supposedly kill a T-90, even though a 120mm gun firing ROCKS
a M-1A2 tank even though it has a much better center of gravity and
weighs more than your Zaku mecha?

If you can't explain that, nor the lack of recoil at 60 rounds a minute
or more....then FOAD.

What, again? Sheppard, are you selectively dumb, or do you just remove your brain when you posting here? I explained it above on the same page as your post!

Here's the hint again.

The Mobile Suit braces with both arms. That may not seem like much, until you consider how stong a Mobile Suit's arms are.

And, as usual, we'll begin with Norris Packard's Gouf in episode 10:

We'll start early in the episode, where the Gouf yanks a jet fighter out of it's path, and into the line of fire of a Beam Rifle.
http://samas.freehosting.net/Jetyank.jpg

Mind you, This jet was strong enough for the Gouf to hang from after it was hooked.
http://samas.freehosting.net/Goufhang.jpg

Later, when battling the 08th Team, Norris uses his Gouf to push a massive section of freeway off of him...
http://samas.freehosting.net/Goufpush.jpg

...and even palms a Gundam by the head and lifts it, all with one hand!
http://samas.freehosting.net/Gouflift.jpg
http://samas.freehosting.net/Gouflift2.jpg

But don't count the Gundams out. In Mobile Suit Gundam, Amuro uses the Gundam to catch a flying boulder as big as it is, and earlier, he used the Guncannon to bitchslap a Zaku around, and drags it off with one hand.

And he's not the only one. In the same episode against Norris, Shiro rips the arm off his own Gundam...
http://samas.freehosting.net/Gunpull.jpg

...and proceeds to beat the mess out of the Gouf with it.

And there's still noticable recoil when their Machineguns fire, and they have to use both hands to fire their Beam Rifles without it jerking their arms around.

[Pablo Sanchez]

What, again? Sheppard, are you selectively dumb, or do you just remove your brain when you posting here? I explained it above on the same page as your post!

Here's the hint again.

The Mobile Suit braces with both arms. That may not seem like much, until you consider how stong a Mobile Suit's arms are.

It doesn't matter how strong the damn arms are! An Abrams firing a SINGLE APFSDS round is rocked back, and it weighs significantly more than the mobile suit, and has a far, far, far lower center of gravity! A 60 ton mecha firing 10 of these rounds per second would fall right on its ass!

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

It doesn't matter how strong the damn arms are! An Abrams firing a SINGLE APFSDS round is rocked back, and it weighs significantly more than the mobile suit, and has a far, far, far lower center of gravity! A 60 ton mecha firing 10 of these rounds per second would fall right on its ass!

10 rounds per second? I never saw such rates. Maybe 3 or 4, but not ten. And those were in bursts. THough I wonder how the RX-79 could fire its chest vulcan with little to no recoil.

[Pablo Sanchez]

10 rounds per second? I never saw such rates. Maybe 3 or 4, but not ten. And those were in bursts. THough I wonder how the RX-79 could fire its chest vulcan with little to no recoil.

They were claiming such rates. And 3 or 4 is still bad enough to make it impossible.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

They were claiming such rates. And 3 or 4 is still bad enough to make it impossible.

I writhe corrected.

[Vympel]

Now to move back to logic-

The mechas side entire fucking moronic argument is based on comparing the damage mechas do to each other and then assuming what they are trying to prove- mechas are better, therefore the damage they do to each other must be greater.

I'll try and somehow gather these mecha arguments ... there seems to be a loss of focus-

Where am I referring to weapon calibre or composition from 'official data' in this analysis? The official stats says "KE penetrator", That's it. I used DU merely as a convenience and for ease of comparison. I will accept the concession on that a 5km/s projectile will not shatter on impact even with current technology owing to you not providing any counter calculations to prove your point.

Shatter on impact with what? You're talking out of your ass. Tell me, have you done any calcs on the armor thickness of a T-90 and the effect that Kontakts-V ERA has on a US 120mm round at normal battle ranges?

It was not me who compared it with real life shells, it was MKSheppard and Sea Skimmer et al in the last thread, and they kept saying it HAS to be a low velocity HE shell. I first disproved low velocity, and just to rub it in I disproved that it could possibly be HE.

My, what a big head you have, you did nothing of the sort

As Sea Skimmer pointed out, and which you dodged and hope noone would call you out on it:

And of course, having it fire an AP round in place of HE would require a massivly larger shell to explain where all the dust is coming from. It makes thing worse, not better.

So concession accepted.

Toppling - I can't just say the problem can be solved, I must show that it can be solved? Fine:
Assume centre of gravity for Zaku is located .001m above ground level. (nobody can argue this either way as nobody knows the weight distribution of Zaku)
Hence CG of Zaku is ridiculously low. Recoil problem solved since we don't see Zaku bending like a willow when it fires weapon and it is capable of taking M1A1 class recoil. ACCORDING TO YOUR VERSION.
See what I mean? I told you that it CAN be solved, and I just SHOWED that it has been solved. IN OTHER WORDS, IT CAN SWING EITHER WAY DUE TO LACK OF DATA.

Disprove me by showing me the weight distribution of a Zaku and calculating how far up it can fire the thing without falling. Don't scale a human to a Zaku size and use that, because that's totally invalid. If you can't, then I think we're both going to have to lay off this one.

My my you are lucky Wong hasn't read this!!!!

1:

Center of gravity

.001m ABOVE GROUND LEVEL? WTF?! So you are contending that the weight distribution of a Zaku is ANYTHING but logical. Hello argument from ignorance fallacy.

2:

Hence CG is ridiculously low

You stupid fuckwit. You claim its .001 above ground and then use your unproved assumption to say it's been solved?!

3:

Recoil problem solved since we don't see Zaku bending like a willow when it fires weapon and it is capable of taking M1A1 class recoil. ACCORDING TO YOUR VERSION.
See what I mean? I told you that it CAN be solved, and I just SHOWED that it has been solved. IN OTHER WORDS, IT CAN SWING EITHER WAY DUE TO LACK OF DATA.

Your last line is pure argument from ignorance fallacy. You also claim it's capable of taking M1A1 class recoil even though you haven't proved this recoil, nor explained how your shitty 120mm machine guns with ballistic trajectories can kill a mecha but your mythical 175mm cannon can't.

The burden of proof is on YOU, asshole, not ass. We don't have to disprove anything, especially when it's a mountain of assumptions you bullshit artist.

Well, we see ground being SHAKEN from the effects of a Magella. You must have some pretty decent energy in that shell to do so, be it from HE or from it's inherent KE. I have disproved that it can be HE. Therefore ground shaking comes almost entirely from KE. Thus it's at least equal to a T90 shot, which AFAIK doesn't do a mini imitation of an earthquake when it hits the ground. And this further clicks with my previous arguments about the Magella being quite powerful as anti-armour!

You didn't prove it couldn't be HE-Frag, nor did you address Skimmer's point that the round must be large in order to generate that much dust- your position is WORSE. Or are you going to claim your 5km/sec slivers of KE penetrators can do this now?

I realise that. Know that you cannot merely scale up a human to Mech size, and whatever affect the human up that same scale, and say that since the human cannot do that, the Mech cannot. So his comparison is total rubbish. It's like saying my toy car can be dropped 6cm without damage, therefore my real car can be dropped 6m without being damaged either.

Ah brilliant, so it's more valid to contend that instead of designing a mecha to operate as a human does, it's more reasonable to assume a CG .001m off the ground. Right. Idiot.

Thank you for proving my point. You'll notice in previous posts that I have specifically said that a 180g HE shell would do JACK, which was the point I was proving. Thank you again. Idiot.

With the hidden assumption that mecha armor is strong of course. Assuming what you're trying to prove yet again I see.


Oh and PS:

Mobile Suit Mobility: Size doesn't matter if the target can get out of your weapon's way before you can hit it.

Righttttt. You have no idea how stupid you sound do you? On one hand, we have a squat 2 meter high tank. On the other, a much bigger mecha- who's gonna have less trouble, genius?

[Vympel]

Now regarding this 'proved' 5km/sec thing ... how exactly did you prove it pray tell? Yosemite has already called you out once:

Because they are using the Visuals = canon which is greater then physics bull shit again

You are perfectly willing to apply physics when it suits your purposes but the moment it becomes inconvenient for your side and toss it out the window, claiming that its 5km/sec even though Bear has repeatedly said why it's not.

[Pablo Sanchez]

1:

Center of gravity

.001m ABOVE GROUND LEVEL? WTF?! So you are contending that the weight distribution of a Zaku is ANYTHING but logical. Hello argument from ignorance fallacy.

I would guess the Zaku's center of gravity to be somewhat nearer to its "pelvic" area. The idea that the center of gravity would be in the bottom millimeter of the vehicle is so laughable that it nearly makes me cry.

[MKSheppard]

I would guess the Zaku's center of gravity to be somewhat nearer to its "pelvic" area. The idea that the center of gravity would be in the bottom millimeter of the vehicle is so laughable that it nearly makes me cry.

I just said "Fuck this, the guy can't do logical calculations, so why do I have
to spend time refuting them?"

[Vympel]

I just said "Fuck this, the guy can't do logical calculations, so why do I have
to spend time refuting them?"

I was just getting tired of his pronouncements of what he had 'proved'. I haven't been on in a while so I came back to quite a ton of shit.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Reminds me of a certian other indicidual who kept saying that he had already proved that DET was impossible and that his conversion theroy was correct.

[SAMAS]

Now regarding this 'proved' 5km/sec thing ... how exactly did you prove it pray tell? Yosemite has already called you out once:

Because they are using the Visuals = canon which is greater then physics bull shit again

You are perfectly willing to apply physics when it suits your purposes but the moment it becomes inconvenient for your side and toss it out the window, claiming that its 5km/sec even though Bear has repeatedly said why it's not.

The whole problem with that is when there is no other explaination. The scene in which I determined that the shot travels 10km/sec(not 5) is because there is an explosion one second after it fires!

You say that it can't be that because it breaks the laws of physics.

We say that it is anyway because it is anyway. Unless you can explain how a shell can tavel 10 kilometers in a second without moving at a rate of 10km/sec, then it moves at a rate of 10km/sec.

This is what's meant by suspension of disbelief. It's the same thing we use when we let the Empire or Federation use FTL travel.

[Beowulf]

Now regarding this 'proved' 5km/sec thing ... how exactly did you prove it pray tell? Yosemite has already called you out once:

Because they are using the Visuals = canon which is greater then physics bull shit again

You are perfectly willing to apply physics when it suits your purposes but the moment it becomes inconvenient for your side and toss it out the window, claiming that its 5km/sec even though Bear has repeatedly said why it's not.

The whole problem with that is when there is no other explaination. The scene in which I determined that the shot travels 10km/sec(not 5) is because there is an explosion one second after it fires!

You say that it can't be that because it breaks the laws of physics.

We say that it is anyway because it is anyway. Unless you can explain how a shell can tavel 10 kilometers in a second without moving at a rate of 10km/sec, then it moves at a rate of 10km/sec.

This is what's meant by suspension of disbelief. It's the same thing we use when we let the Empire or Federation use FTL travel.

Gee... maybe it's not possible to be 10km away? You said yourself that the effective range was 3.2km for sights, so it would be infeasible that they would be able to hit something 3 times farther away except by sheer luck...

[Vejut]

How would you calc that given a screen with shooter in it (you do have one right, SAMAS? If you don't your whole 10km/h arguement is bull as there would have to have been a scene change or who knows how long the round took to get there?), and knowledge of the size of shooting unit? Thought of trying this, but couldn't think of how...gonna feel like an idiot when someone points it out....
The evidence against it using physics, is legion: Recoil, unless you used a light round would knock your mech over (don't give me the "center of percussion, I explained it away", you have done no such thing: Give us evidence of this thing applying in this instance.)
If round was made light enough to not do so, it would have no chance of penetrating T-90 armor: Hell, modern M-1 120mm have a hard time.

Using the 180g HE round (assuming that isn't a typo, if it is and should be 1800g, see point above, ignore this one), You'd HAVE to use a sabot (and would be better off just using a smaller gun barrel diameter with an oversized powder charge...): a 12cmx30cm round would have a density 30 TIMES LESS than water. In that underwater combat scene you mentioned, the rounds would have curved UP.

If it is NOT an HE, Your APDS round (or AP slug, whichever) would have zero chance of damaging the T-90 unless it was a round with high mass to go with it's high speed, thus making it also high recoil-and high probablity of knocking your mech over. IIRC, and someone correct me if I'm wrong (preferably Wong or Vympel, as they seem to be the ones who know what they're about...) Newton's Third law is the guy you're talking about here: You want to knock a hole in that target, your gun will generate equal forces on you (you just hopefully designed your machine to spread them out and take them, while the target gets them all in one point, not neccesarily the strongets one...)

[SAMAS]

When did I say that?

In episode 8 of 08th MS Team, Karen Joshua complains about being able to target Mobile Suits that are 10 klicks away. She's not worried about hitting them, but of the specific accuracy Shiro is asking her and Terry to do.

In fact, I have shown several instances of long-range fire by Mobile Suits:

http://samas.freehosting.net/Mountainviev.jpg

in Episode 10, The 08th Team tries to protect a trio of Guntanks that are about to bombard this mountain with 150mm cannon fire. One of the firing tanks is behind the man in this shot.

http://samas.freehosting.net/BeamShot1.jpg

In this shot, you can see a point of light in the distance. That's an oncoming beam rifle shot from a Gundam.

http://samas.freehosting.net/BeamShot2.jpg

And this is the same shot hitting the Zaku right in the arms, which was the intended target. A target not more than 2 meters wide from it's angle and positioning.

http://samas.freehosting.net/Zakushot1.jpg

This is an earlier shot, of the same Zaku shooting at the Gundams.

The shots from both the Cannon and the Beam Rifles crossed the distance between the targets in about a second.

HINT: If something moves ten kilometers in one second, it has a speed of ten kilometers per second.

[Vympel]

Gee... maybe it's not possible to be 10km away?

Don't expect consistency. First they say the FCS is 3,200m effective then they say it can acquire targets out to 10km- whatever suits their position at the time really. Additionally, those screen shots posted (the ones that work) don't look like 10km range to me. Interesting.

I also find it most interesting that SAMAS will expend so much energy on this sideshow red herring when it's irrelevant anyway- the extent of SAMAS arguments is comparing the effectiveness of them to EACH OTHER and then assuming what he's trying to prove to say that they could kill tanks.

[Vejut]

First pic not coming through (remote linking error): from description: Is irrelevant: Russians have long range arty as well, which is what you would use to bombard a mountain, not your anti-tank guns.

I don't see anything but dialouge to support the 10km number here...long range? Yes. 10km? Who can tell? Certainly far enough you can't see the Gundam's, but how far is that? You see a point of light coming off what is probably a mountain side, and hitting a target. And it looks to me like that's a nice, solid lower body hit: the arm is just in the way....

[SAMAS]

How would you calc that given a screen with shooter in it (you do have one right, SAMAS? If you don't your whole 10km/h arguement is bull as there would have to have been a scene change or who knows how long the round took to get there?), and knowledge of the size of shooting unit?

Are you people filtering my posts out or something? I did this back on Page 3 of this very thread!

Here's the scene of the Zaku firing the Magella Attack's 175mm cannon.

http://samas.freehosting.net/Zakushot1.jpg
00:20:16 -- After just missing getting it's arm shorn off by a Beam Rifle, the Zaku takes aim in the direction of the shot, and returns fire.

http://samas.freehosting.net/Zakushot2.jpg
00:20:16 -- The scene switches to Karen's view as the Zaku tries to find her.

http://samas.freehosting.net/Zakushot3.jpg
00:20:17 -- The shot passes by Karen.

I know, I know. Not necessarily a continuious shot. Luckily, the Zaku fires twice in this shot.

http://samas.freehosting.net/Zakushot4.jpg
00:20:18 -- The Zaku fires again(yes, I know that it looks the same as the second pic. The Zaku didn't move).

http://samas.freehosting.net/Zakushot5.jpg
00:20:19 -- The second shot impacts, a little closer to Karen.

Thought of trying this, but couldn't think of how...gonna feel like an idiot when someone points it out....
The evidence against it using physics, is legion: Recoil, unless you used a light round would knock your mech over (don't give me the "center of percussion, I explained it away", you have done no such thing: Give us evidence of this thing applying in this instance.)

Actually, that wasn't my argument. But I think what he was saying was that the Mobile Suit was firing from it's center of gravity.

My point was the guess that the Mobile Suit's arms are built to take the brunt of the recoil.

If round was made light enough to not do so, it would have no chance of penetrating T-90 armor: Hell, modern M-1 120mm have a hard time.

Using the 180g HE round (assuming that isn't a typo, if it is and should be 1800g, see point above, ignore this one), You'd HAVE to use a sabot (and would be better off just using a smaller gun barrel diameter with an oversized powder charge...): a 12cmx30cm round would have a density 30 TIMES LESS than water. In that underwater combat scene you mentioned, the rounds would have curved UP.

In the Underwater Combat scene(08th MS Team Episode 3), the only guns fired were the chest-mounted multi-launcher and Vulcan gun of the RX-79[G]. The Multi-launcher fired flares which exploded shortly after firing to temorarily blind the Zaku pilot, and the vulcan was fired into the water after the Gundam jumped out. The rounds most definitely did not float back up.

If it is NOT an HE, Your APDS round (or AP slug, whichever) would have zero chance of damaging the T-90 unless it was a round with high mass to go with it's high speed, thus making it also high recoil-and high probablity of knocking your mech over. IIRC, and someone correct me if I'm wrong (preferably Wong or Vympel, as they seem to be the ones who know what they're about...) Newton's Third law is the guy you're talking about here: You want to knock a hole in that target, your gun will generate equal forces on you (you just hopefully designed your machine to spread them out and take them, while the target gets them all in one point, not neccesarily the strongets one...)

I already explained the Recoil earlier in the thread. I only repeat myself once per post.

[Vympel]

When did I say that?

In episode 8 of 08th MS Team, Karen Joshua complains about being able to target Mobile Suits that are 10 klicks away. She's not worried about hitting them, but of the specific accuracy Shiro is asking her and Terry to do.

Well considering how tall they are not many people would be worried about totally missing.

In fact, I have shown several instances of long-range fire by Mobile Suits:

in Episode 10, The 08th Team tries to protect a trio of Guntanks that are about to bombard this mountain with 150mm cannon fire. One of the firing tanks is behind the man in this shot.

That's nice. This means what in relation to targeting 2m tall tanks at the same range, not to mention PENETRATING their armor? Nothing.

In this shot, you can see a point of light in the distance. That's an oncoming beam rifle shot from a Gundam.

And this is the same shot hitting the Zaku right in the arms, which was the intended target. A target not more than 2 meters wide from it's angle and positioning.

I'll take your word for it that they were trying to hit the arms of the enemy instead of trying to kill it outright. You do know the difference between a target that is tall and a target that is wide, don't you? Or do you think tanks will just be sitting there in plain view, with colorful Gundam colors and no tactical positioning?

This is an earlier shot, of the same Zaku shooting at the Gundams.

The shots from both the Cannon and the Beam Rifles crossed the distance between the targets in about a second.

HINT: If something moves ten kilometers in one second, it has a speed of ten kilometers per second.

See Vejut's post.

[SAMAS]

First pic not coming through (remote linking error): from description: Is irrelevant: Russians have long range arty as well, which is what you would use to bombard a mountain, not your anti-tank guns.

I don't see anything but dialouge to support the 10km number here...long range? Yes. 10km? Who can tell? Certainly far enough you can't see the Gundam's, but how far is that? You see a point of light coming off what is probably a mountain side, and hitting a target.

Yes, it was a hillside, because the Gundams were sitting there waiting to snipe at the Zakus.

And why would she say 10 Klicks if they weren't 10 klicks away?

And it looks to me like that's a nice, solid lower body hit: the arm is just in the way....

Look again, the arms are way out of the way. In fact, they got shot off!

http://samas.freehosting.net/BeamShot3.jpg

[Vympel]

Actually, that wasn't my argument. But I think what he was saying was that the Mobile Suit was firing from it's center of gravity.

My point was the guess that the Mobile Suit's arms are built to take the brunt of the recoil.

Assuming what you're trying to prove- the guns are powerful, therfore the arms can take the brunt of the recoil. Explain how the arms can take the brunt of the recoil, considering the damn things weigh less than an M1 tank and are a less stable firing platform, and the 120mm machine guns act like grenade launchers with a shit ballistic trajectory, yet can still kill a Mecha, hmm?

In the Underwater Combat scene(08th MS Team Episode 3), the only guns fired were the chest-mounted multi-launcher and Vulcan gun of the RX-79[G]. The Multi-launcher fired flares which exploded shortly after firing to temorarily blind the Zaku pilot, and the vulcan was fired into the water after the Gundam jumped out. The rounds most definitely did not float back up.

You do realize that's irrelevant if it's not even the same weapon?

I already explained the Recoil earlier in the thread. I only repeat myself once per post.

No, you didn't. The only 'explanation' for recoil has been Dendrobius ridiculous asserting that the CG is .001m off the ground. Which he made up on the spot. Vejut is quite right.

[Vejut]

Half those images don't work...and depending on how close that miss was, there is a good possiblity that isn't 10 klicks...

Doesn't matter if the arms are built to take it (won't help when you're firing that fast anyways...), that momentum and energy has to go somewhere...force arm uses to stop gun moving back acts on shoulder and pushes the torso back...

[Vympel]

And why would she say 10 Klicks if they weren't 10 klicks away?

Why would they say a Klingon starship is 3,000m away when it's closer to 300m?