I have bred the master race!
Moderator: Thanas
- LordShaithis
- Redshirt
- Posts: 3179
- Joined: 2002-07-08 11:02am
- Location: Michigan
I'm trying a bit more of a "guided evolution" thing myself. I want to breed something with three or four legs, having seen enough of eels and two-legged strokers. So I start an ordinary GoE, and toss in one each of ChristmasNinja and Swastika, on opposite sides of the circle.
Since there's only one of each, they can't breed amongst their own kind and dominate. But since they're guaranteed to be more successful than 99.9% of the random swimmers flopping around a fresh GoE, I know that each one will mate many times before finally dying, and thus have a disproportionate effect upon the gene pool.
Every five or ten minutes, I drop in and take a close look at the goings on. I then bring down the hand of god, erasing any one-legged swimmers or just bumping them up to four. We'll see what I get.
Since there's only one of each, they can't breed amongst their own kind and dominate. But since they're guaranteed to be more successful than 99.9% of the random swimmers flopping around a fresh GoE, I know that each one will mate many times before finally dying, and thus have a disproportionate effect upon the gene pool.
Every five or ten minutes, I drop in and take a close look at the goings on. I then bring down the hand of god, erasing any one-legged swimmers or just bumping them up to four. We'll see what I get.
If Religion and Politics were characters on a soap opera, Religion would be the one that goes insane with jealousy over Politics' intimate relationship with Reality, and secretly murder Politics in the night, skin the corpse, and run around its apartment wearing the skin like a cape shouting "My votes now! All votes for me! Wheeee!" -- Lagmonster
Time to start my 'Grand Experiment of the Year'.
I took one of Fourleg, '760k'-survivor, Blue Devil, Blue Devil V3, Blue Rampager, Christmas Ninja 1.5, Crappy Mcfourlegs, Green Menace, Helicopter, Hippy, Little Green Worm, four variants of Master Race, Orange Meanie, Orange Menace, Orange Treefrog, Pondskater, Purple Race 1.221, Red Hooker, Red Kangaroo, Red Rampager, Red Worm, RM 3.5, RM 3.7, Squiddy, Swimmer, TwitchyE, Ultraslow, Underdog, Violetkangaroo, Yellow Bastards, Yellow Rower and four different muties of multi-hued variety.
I cloned every worm mentioned and put one of each at the opposite ends of the Race Pond. Now I'm going to wait until there's only one type left.
I took one of Fourleg, '760k'-survivor, Blue Devil, Blue Devil V3, Blue Rampager, Christmas Ninja 1.5, Crappy Mcfourlegs, Green Menace, Helicopter, Hippy, Little Green Worm, four variants of Master Race, Orange Meanie, Orange Menace, Orange Treefrog, Pondskater, Purple Race 1.221, Red Hooker, Red Kangaroo, Red Rampager, Red Worm, RM 3.5, RM 3.7, Squiddy, Swimmer, TwitchyE, Ultraslow, Underdog, Violetkangaroo, Yellow Bastards, Yellow Rower and four different muties of multi-hued variety.
I cloned every worm mentioned and put one of each at the opposite ends of the Race Pond. Now I'm going to wait until there's only one type left.
--
Don't make me use uppercase...
Don't make me use uppercase...
I have been trying to create a race (without directly modifying their genes) to beat the Master Race (the original version) since Saturday.
I started with a Colors GoE, and from that a blue eel like creature dominated. I worked with that same creature for several days and spawned about 8 versions of it. The 4th version (v1.03) seemed to be the most successful, so I pitted it against the Master Race.
The Master Race has an amazing ability to breed extremely quickly and my race (let's just call them the Titans) were outpaced within the first few thousand ticks. However, once the food bits became scarce, the Titan's ability to swiftly spread across the pond allowed them to keep up with the Master Race. From then on, the Master Race died down, and the two races' populations would oscillate, vying for dominance. However, usually after around 100 000 ticks, the Master Race's ability to rapidly increase their numbers would be enough to extinguish the Titans. I think their ability to multiply so quickly has something to do with their turning genes.
Anyway, different versions of the Titans would net the same result, so I gave up and decided to see what would happen if I crossed them. I made a double GoE, put half Master Race and half Titans in one, and the same mix in the other but a different colour. I left them to battle it out for a day and then took four different samples from the resulting dominant breed. I examined the four files and compiled the most common characteristics into a new file and changed the colour to green.
The result? A hybrid species that is capable of matching and even exceeding the Master Race's rapid breeding, and also has a desire to expand and explore the pond. In my tests, the hybrid would gain a population lead and maintain it, but since the Master Race is so hardy it's able to stick around for a long time. I haven't been able to determine at what point the Master Race die out, but in the end the hybrid species does end up completely winning.
The next step is to pit them against the different version of the Master Race and see how they hold up to them. I'm also thinking of just taking their turning genes and pasting them over the Titan's.
Titans (v1.03):
0.065530
0.591338
0.867833
0.918427
0.845524
0.974396
0.823876
0.955342
0.406158
0.641890
0.172432
0.493011
0.952637
0.902653
0.666667
0.000000
The Master Race/Titan Hybrid
0.073914
0.801870
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.315046
0.548498
0.599800
0.000000
I started with a Colors GoE, and from that a blue eel like creature dominated. I worked with that same creature for several days and spawned about 8 versions of it. The 4th version (v1.03) seemed to be the most successful, so I pitted it against the Master Race.
The Master Race has an amazing ability to breed extremely quickly and my race (let's just call them the Titans) were outpaced within the first few thousand ticks. However, once the food bits became scarce, the Titan's ability to swiftly spread across the pond allowed them to keep up with the Master Race. From then on, the Master Race died down, and the two races' populations would oscillate, vying for dominance. However, usually after around 100 000 ticks, the Master Race's ability to rapidly increase their numbers would be enough to extinguish the Titans. I think their ability to multiply so quickly has something to do with their turning genes.
Anyway, different versions of the Titans would net the same result, so I gave up and decided to see what would happen if I crossed them. I made a double GoE, put half Master Race and half Titans in one, and the same mix in the other but a different colour. I left them to battle it out for a day and then took four different samples from the resulting dominant breed. I examined the four files and compiled the most common characteristics into a new file and changed the colour to green.
The result? A hybrid species that is capable of matching and even exceeding the Master Race's rapid breeding, and also has a desire to expand and explore the pond. In my tests, the hybrid would gain a population lead and maintain it, but since the Master Race is so hardy it's able to stick around for a long time. I haven't been able to determine at what point the Master Race die out, but in the end the hybrid species does end up completely winning.
The next step is to pit them against the different version of the Master Race and see how they hold up to them. I'm also thinking of just taking their turning genes and pasting them over the Titan's.
Titans (v1.03):
0.065530
0.591338
0.867833
0.918427
0.845524
0.974396
0.823876
0.955342
0.406158
0.641890
0.172432
0.493011
0.952637
0.902653
0.666667
0.000000
The Master Race/Titan Hybrid
0.073914
0.801870
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.315046
0.548498
0.599800
0.000000
- The Dark
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7378
- Joined: 2002-10-31 10:28pm
- Location: Promoting ornithological awareness
Just downloaded the program, going to let it run through dinner and see what I get.
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.
Ok, my grand experiment produced these guys after 250000 ticks.
Clonetroopers (Blue)
0.371776
0.553158
0.374032
0.398148
0.901740
0.476045
0.036219
0.447757
0.215597
0.653350
0.627273
0.336080
0.797158
0.324595
0.799800
0.000000
I put a couple of Titans (v1.03) and Master Race/Titan Hybrids in there as well. We'll see how they do.
Clonetroopers (Blue)
0.371776
0.553158
0.374032
0.398148
0.901740
0.476045
0.036219
0.447757
0.215597
0.653350
0.627273
0.336080
0.797158
0.324595
0.799800
0.000000
I put a couple of Titans (v1.03) and Master Race/Titan Hybrids in there as well. We'll see how they do.
--
Don't make me use uppercase...
Don't make me use uppercase...
Umm, so, I was just fooking around....saw some swimmers that could actually move (gasp) and they took over the fucking universe. I tweaked their motion genes a tad and came up with the Squiddies, because they look like sentinels from the Matrix. Try em out:
0.731816
0.840479
0.830000
0.330000
1.000000
0.514041
0.336920
0.477269
0.400000
0.488646
0.460000
0.710000
0.720000
0.058615
0.599800
0.000000
they turn like shit, but they can sure haul ass.
So, reading through the thread, and I see squiddy is already taken, so I dub my Creation: Dipshits.
0.731816
0.840479
0.830000
0.330000
1.000000
0.514041
0.336920
0.477269
0.400000
0.488646
0.460000
0.710000
0.720000
0.058615
0.599800
0.000000
they turn like shit, but they can sure haul ass.
So, reading through the thread, and I see squiddy is already taken, so I dub my Creation: Dipshits.
I present you the Clonetroopers (Blue) V2.0 who dominate the pool after 350 000 ticks.
0.378654
0.553158
0.347887
0.398148
0.901740
0.476045
0.054643
0.447757
0.594608
0.637196
0.627273
0.336080
0.808516
0.769761
0.799800
0.000000
Added a couple of Dipshits to the pool to mix things even more.
EDIT: And the Dipshits have taken over after another 100 000 ticks. There are about 10 other guys left, the rest (290) are Dipshits.
0.378654
0.553158
0.347887
0.398148
0.901740
0.476045
0.054643
0.447757
0.594608
0.637196
0.627273
0.336080
0.808516
0.769761
0.799800
0.000000
Added a couple of Dipshits to the pool to mix things even more.
EDIT: And the Dipshits have taken over after another 100 000 ticks. There are about 10 other guys left, the rest (290) are Dipshits.
--
Don't make me use uppercase...
Don't make me use uppercase...
Argosh, I'm a little confused.
Are you making them all the same colour so that they'll breed and mix, or are you trying to have them compete?
If it's the latter, you can't expect much competition if you just throw a few specimens into a pond that's been running for awhile.
I tried throwing your Clonetroopers (v2.0) into a double GoE against the Master Race/Titan Hybrids, and they seem like they'll die out in less than 40k ticks.
EDIT: The Clonetroopers died out after 35k ticks.
EDIT#2: I tried facing the Dipshits against the MR/Titan Hybrids, and the Dipshits just swam to different corners of the pond and died without ever mating. Strange.
Are you making them all the same colour so that they'll breed and mix, or are you trying to have them compete?
If it's the latter, you can't expect much competition if you just throw a few specimens into a pond that's been running for awhile.
I tried throwing your Clonetroopers (v2.0) into a double GoE against the Master Race/Titan Hybrids, and they seem like they'll die out in less than 40k ticks.
EDIT: The Clonetroopers died out after 35k ticks.
EDIT#2: I tried facing the Dipshits against the MR/Titan Hybrids, and the Dipshits just swam to different corners of the pond and died without ever mating. Strange.
YOU DEPRESSED THEM! They're ruined! I now have to make new dipshits! Their pool is tainted with your vile titan scum! ACK!Hobot wrote:Argosh, I'm a little confused.
Are you making them all the same colour so that they'll breed and mix, or are you trying to have them compete?
If it's the latter, you can't expect much competition if you just throw a few specimens into a pond that's been running for awhile.
I tried throwing your Clonetroopers (v2.0) into a double GoE against the Master Race/Titan Hybrids, and they seem like they'll die out in less than 40k ticks.
EDIT: The Clonetroopers died out after 35k ticks.
EDIT#2: I tried facing the Dipshits against the MR/Titan Hybrids, and the Dipshits just swam to different corners of the pond and died without ever mating. Strange.
EDIT: Hey, someone throw these in your pond and see what happens. They seem to do very well. I call them Wallaces because they struggle for FREEEEEEDOMMMMMMMM!!!!
0.661805
0.910980
0.970176
0.240845
0.942780
0.563202
0.272614
0.683929
0.084288
0.294492
0.231750
0.059509
0.427399
0.088165
0.895834
0.036560
I downloaded this a few hours ago, and got all of the various breeds shown in this thread. After experimenting I decided I wanted to create my own breed and so I let the program do its Darwinian thing.
Out of this program I got two species, a two-legged solid-blue one, and a one-legged solid blue one. I pitted the two against each other and the two legged one (Blue Stupidity1) was victorious. I wanted to see how it would fair against a different two-legged one, so I sent it up against Red Rampager 3.7. What ensued was surprising, and my account follows.
I started it up, sent blue and red to left and right; then turned most of my attention to my math homework. I glanced up a couple times to see the screen partially blue and partially red, and then I saw blue was mostly WITH red on it's patch. This was ~10000. Blue Stupidity ate itself and Red out of house and home, and a Famine 1 ensued ~13,000 ticks in. There was food in the upper right and 3-4 reds were at top center. Some blues at center and upper right took up persuit towards the new feast area. Red got there first and bred relatively slowly. At this point I devoted more attention towards watching the action. Blue Stupidity1 came up and bred like RABBITS! Ate the reds out of another home.
Now ~30,000 ticks into the game, with a 2-3 reds and 20-30 blues in the upper right (new feast area) I figured the game was over. A running skirmish from upper right to lower left followed. Red got fewer and fewer however, with Blue still breeding. About at tick 43,000 the last red died. It was almost at the new feeding grounds too.
During this I saved a few interesting specimens. It seems a few reds and blues went the Romeo and Juliet way, and bred with each other. The DNA of those is availible upon PM. As is, I've taken up enough space.
Enjoy.
EDIT: Corrected quote name
Out of this program I got two species, a two-legged solid-blue one, and a one-legged solid blue one. I pitted the two against each other and the two legged one (Blue Stupidity1) was victorious. I wanted to see how it would fair against a different two-legged one, so I sent it up against Red Rampager 3.7. What ensued was surprising, and my account follows.
I started it up, sent blue and red to left and right; then turned most of my attention to my math homework. I glanced up a couple times to see the screen partially blue and partially red, and then I saw blue was mostly WITH red on it's patch. This was ~10000. Blue Stupidity ate itself and Red out of house and home, and a Famine 1 ensued ~13,000 ticks in. There was food in the upper right and 3-4 reds were at top center. Some blues at center and upper right took up persuit towards the new feast area. Red got there first and bred relatively slowly. At this point I devoted more attention towards watching the action. Blue Stupidity1 came up and bred like RABBITS! Ate the reds out of another home.
Now ~30,000 ticks into the game, with a 2-3 reds and 20-30 blues in the upper right (new feast area) I figured the game was over. A running skirmish from upper right to lower left followed. Red got fewer and fewer however, with Blue still breeding. About at tick 43,000 the last red died. It was almost at the new feeding grounds too.
During this I saved a few interesting specimens. It seems a few reds and blues went the Romeo and Juliet way, and bred with each other. The DNA of those is availible upon PM. As is, I've taken up enough space.
Known Traits: Fairly fast, Fair stamina, though Red's is better, breeds like rabbits on viagraBlue Stupidity1 wrote:0.478851
0.807129
0.880890
0.559052
0.927032
0.577942
0.862088
0.364441
0.773315
0.633514
0.768982
0.694794
0.580261
0.880707
0.765594
0.025970
Enjoy.
EDIT: Corrected quote name
Last edited by HSRTG on 2005-10-16 09:35am, edited 1 time in total.
Kill one man, you're a murderer. Kill a million, a king. Kill them all, a god. - Anonymous
I haven't changed colors, if some mixed breeding occurs then they're doing it on their own. I saved the clear winners every time the pool was mostly one species (less than 10 others remaining).
Now my pool looks like a greenhouse Back to the drawing board...
I'm going to put Master Race/Titan Hybrids against Dipshits, Clonetroopers and these new Worms, one of each to one of the food circles in a double GoE. So if they want to breed with their clone, they have to swim between the two food circles.
Green Worm
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.501628
0.548498
0.599800
0.000000
And a few lucky survivors besides the dominating Green Worm
Orange Worm
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.063762
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.394357
0.548498
0.279621
0.000000
Yellow Worm
0.073914
0.801870
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.394357
0.819389
0.495176
0.000000
Hybrid Colored Worm
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.394357
0.392098
0.599800
0.384497
Now my pool looks like a greenhouse Back to the drawing board...
I'm going to put Master Race/Titan Hybrids against Dipshits, Clonetroopers and these new Worms, one of each to one of the food circles in a double GoE. So if they want to breed with their clone, they have to swim between the two food circles.
Green Worm
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.501628
0.548498
0.599800
0.000000
And a few lucky survivors besides the dominating Green Worm
Orange Worm
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.063762
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.394357
0.548498
0.279621
0.000000
Yellow Worm
0.073914
0.801870
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.394357
0.819389
0.495176
0.000000
Hybrid Colored Worm
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.394357
0.392098
0.599800
0.384497
--
Don't make me use uppercase...
Don't make me use uppercase...
- LordShaithis
- Redshirt
- Posts: 3179
- Joined: 2002-07-08 11:02am
- Location: Michigan
The Green Worms are Master Race variants. Look at the individual numbers.
Identical to matching MR gene = Red
Within 0.05 of matching MR gene = Yellow
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.501628
0.548498
0.599800
0.000000
Master Race always wins! Muahahaha!
Identical to matching MR gene = Red
Within 0.05 of matching MR gene = Yellow
0.073914
0.553158
0.765618
0.258271
0.169142
0.534457
0.025867
0.334101
0.092997
0.370117
0.934723
0.706632
0.501628
0.548498
0.599800
0.000000
Master Race always wins! Muahahaha!
If Religion and Politics were characters on a soap opera, Religion would be the one that goes insane with jealousy over Politics' intimate relationship with Reality, and secretly murder Politics in the night, skin the corpse, and run around its apartment wearing the skin like a cape shouting "My votes now! All votes for me! Wheeee!" -- Lagmonster
I matched Blue Stupidity with Wallace, Blue Stupidity won handily. However, at the end the Wallace things started breeding with Blue Stupidity, so I saved a hybrid, started a new game, and let it evolve. What came out was Blue Stupidity3 after 125k of evolution. It seemed better then MR so I matched them up. Account follows.
MR vs BS3.
MR wound up with 2x as many when the population cap kicked in. MR ate through its patch first and came over to my worm's. What followed was pretty standard eat/breed/be merry. When the first famine hit at 20k my worm's greater efficiancy showed up. At 23k MR tied #s and was headed down. Wallace Gene and a MR evolution showed up at about 30k, with green and purple worms soon following. Purple dead at 45k, yellow dead at 47k, and green gave up at 55k.
Winner: BS3
I beat the MR!! W00T!!!!!!!!
Now to match it up against the things which have also beaten MR. [size=0]BS3 is so boned... [/size]
Yeah, but they seem better. They lasted longer then the original Master Race. I'll stick MR in a GoE for ~125k and see what happens, if anything.
EDIT: Did, don't have time to test the efficiency of the evolution. DNA provided below, please test.
MR vs BS3.
MR wound up with 2x as many when the population cap kicked in. MR ate through its patch first and came over to my worm's. What followed was pretty standard eat/breed/be merry. When the first famine hit at 20k my worm's greater efficiancy showed up. At 23k MR tied #s and was headed down. Wallace Gene and a MR evolution showed up at about 30k, with green and purple worms soon following. Purple dead at 45k, yellow dead at 47k, and green gave up at 55k.
Winner: BS3
Blue Stupidity3 wrote:0.030547
0.807129
0.880890
0.559052
0.927032
0.577974
0.862088
0.364441
0.773315
0.633514
0.768982
0.694794
0.580261
0.880707
0.765594
0.025970
Wallace Gene in BS3 wrote:0.030547
0.807129
0.880890
0.559052
0.927032
0.577974
0.862088
0.364441
0.773315
0.633514
0.768982
0.694794
0.580261
0.880707
0.837567
0.154081
I beat the MR!! W00T!!!!!!!!
Now to match it up against the things which have also beaten MR. [size=0]BS3 is so boned... [/size]
LordShaithis wrote:The Green Worms are Master Race variants.
Yeah, but they seem better. They lasted longer then the original Master Race. I'll stick MR in a GoE for ~125k and see what happens, if anything.
EDIT: Did, don't have time to test the efficiency of the evolution. DNA provided below, please test.
MR--Evolved? wrote:0.045217
0.679915
0.775269
0.218012
0.447906
0.435489
0.025867
0.261169
0.493909
0.370117
0.962960
0.592468
0.285948
0.386003
0.399800
0.000000
Kill one man, you're a murderer. Kill a million, a king. Kill them all, a god. - Anonymous
- fuzzymillipede
- Youngling
- Posts: 96
- Joined: 2005-03-17 03:05pm
- Koolaidkirby
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 409
- Joined: 2005-11-14 08:55pm
- Location: Oakville, Canada
just got this game, very neat created a 4 legged race called the Quadropus, its legs are so precariously placed (yet perfectly placed for turning and moving) that any breeding with other Oranges instantly results in a creature unable to move or turn
genetic purity for the win
genetic purity for the win
Evil will always triumph over good, because good, is dumb
I give youmy super race:
Lead 3
0.027496
0.968384
0.735291
0.292419
0.668121
0.096537
0.023895
0.287587
0.918365
0.744293
0.659637
0.970093
0.728961
0.840057
0.990816
0.152130
Bred without any interference from a supposed master Race. I assure you of its ultimate dominance.
Lead 3
0.027496
0.968384
0.735291
0.292419
0.668121
0.096537
0.023895
0.287587
0.918365
0.744293
0.659637
0.970093
0.728961
0.840057
0.990816
0.152130
Bred without any interference from a supposed master Race. I assure you of its ultimate dominance.
'After 9/11, it was "You're with us or your with the terrorists." Now its "You're with Straha or you support racism."' ' - The Romulan Republic
'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
Straha wrote:I give youmy super race:
Lead 3
0.027496
0.968384
0.735291
0.292419
0.668121
0.096537
0.023895
0.287587
0.918365
0.744293
0.659637
0.970093
0.728961
0.840057
0.990816
0.152130
Bred without any interference from a supposed master Race. I assure you of its ultimate dominance.
I take that back... My race always won through taking its own damn time breeding and whipping everyone else's ass in the long run, but the Yellow Bred too damn quiickly. They hit the pop cap (400) before my guys had gotten to fifty....
Those DAMN HORNY BASTARDS.
'After 9/11, it was "You're with us or your with the terrorists." Now its "You're with Straha or you support racism."' ' - The Romulan Republic
'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan
'You're a bully putting on an air of civility while saying that everything western and/or capitalistic must be bad, and a lot of other posters (loomer, Stas Bush, Gandalf) are also going along with it for their own personal reasons (Stas in particular is looking through rose colored glasses)' - Darth Yan