split brain...

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2005-10-13 06:08pm

From medicine it is known that a person can still function after losing half of their cerebrum. Type 'hemispherectomy' into a search engine for a multitude of reports. Scientists are pretty unanimous that the mind lies within the cerebrum.

In theory then, with sufficiently advanced technology, you could remove one half of a persons cerebrum and place it into a copy of that person (minus the cerebrum) and then remove the other half and place it in another copy.

Both the resulting people would be functional as intelligent entities. The question is, from the point of view of a unique conciousness, which of the two is the original person?

If you claim neither - then do you also claim that a person who loses half their cortex no longer possesses the same 'conciousness' - that the old conciousness 'died'? They may well protest quite strongly to this claim!

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-10-13 06:15pm

I'm going to claim neither, simply because even if the person's still alive after losing half of their cerebrum, they aren't the same person. They lose something, and they can't be aware of it, because their losing the section of the brain of which they would even have awareness over.

And are you sure that both of the two would function? Typically, the removal of half of the cerebrum is done because of a medical disorder that makes it so that half of the brain is causing problems anyways. Is it known that the person still uses the fauly half of the cerebrum?

Besides this, aren't there certain parts to the brain of which there's only one, like the brain stem, hypothalamus, thalamus, amygdala or the hippocampus? Why do you say both would function as intelligent entities?

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-10-13 06:34pm

I'd say, yes and no. Part of an individual is in each hemisphere; if they are seperated they can function at lower capacity. If you sever the hemispheres, the persons(s) still function; each hemisphere sees/hears only out of it's own body-half, but they still function. The seperated hemispheres are weakened, because they no longer have access to the other's specialities, however. For example, the right brain can no longer understand any but the simplest language, like "stand" or "walk".

If you put them in seperate bodies ( with a new lower brain, like Zero132132 said ), they'd be 2 damaged copies of the same person.

The Guid · Post by **The Guid** » 2005-10-13 07:12pm

Was there not the case of a man who got his brain cut almost in half and became two distinct personalities? Sounds incredible to me but just wondering if anyone has actually heard it from a reliable source.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-10-13 07:14pm

Actually, it is known that the left brain can take over all of the critical functions the right brain provides, and vice versa. So basic skills and abilities would still be intact, such as spacial awareness and language. However, people who survive serious brain injury are known from anecdotal accounts to develop radically different personalities from what they formerly were. I remember reading about a man who had a railroad spike or somthing jammed through his brain. They removed it with no serious complication, and after months of rehabilitation, he functioned normally except for one thing: he became a virtual sociopath. Lying to his wife and kids and treating others cruelly, he was known for violent outbursts of temper. Of course, I haven't heard of any corresponding medical studies on the subject, so take it with a grain of salt.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-10-13 07:26pm

wolveraptor wrote:Actually, it is known that the left brain can take over all of the critical functions the right brain provides, and vice versa. So basic skills and abilities would still be intact, such as spacial awareness and language. However, people who survive serious brain injury are known from anecdotal accounts to develop radically different personalities from what they formerly were. I remember reading about a man who had a railroad spike or somthing jammed through his brain. They removed it with no serious complication, and after months of rehabilitation, he functioned normally except for one thing: he became a virtual sociopath. Lying to his wife and kids and treating others cruelly, he was known for violent outbursts of temper. Of course, I haven't heard of any corresponding medical studies on the subject, so take it with a grain of salt.

I've heard of this account as well in my psych course, so I assume there's something to it. But wasn't that nail driven through the frontal lobe?

petesampras · Post by **petesampras** » 2005-10-13 07:27pm

wolveraptor wrote:Actually, it is known that the left brain can take over all of the critical functions the right brain provides, and vice versa. So basic skills and abilities would still be intact, such as spacial awareness and language. However, people who survive serious brain injury are known from anecdotal accounts to develop radically different personalities from what they formerly were. I remember reading about a man who had a railroad spike or somthing jammed through his brain. They removed it with no serious complication, and after months of rehabilitation, he functioned normally except for one thing: he became a virtual sociopath. Lying to his wife and kids and treating others cruelly, he was known for violent outbursts of temper. Of course, I haven't heard of any corresponding medical studies on the subject, so take it with a grain of salt.

I think you are talking about the legendary Phineas Gage who lost a large chunk of his prefrontal cortex in the accident and whose injuries later inspired development of the medical miracle that is the prefrontal lobotomy.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-10-13 07:34pm

The Guid wrote:Was there not the case of a man who got his brain cut almost in half and became two distinct personalities? Sounds incredible to me but just wondering if anyone has actually heard it from a reliable source.

Yep.

http://www.indiana.edu/~pietsch/split-brain.html

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2005-10-13 08:47pm

Yes, the story is told in just about every intro neuro course. It was Phineas Gage I think his name was? He had a railroad pike shoved up his skull, and it was noted that while he physically recovered, he became extremely different in personality and temperment.

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2005-10-13 09:49pm

Wasn't one of the denizens of Mike's hate mail page claiming to have half a brain, yet be really smart?

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-10-13 09:58pm

petesampras wrote:I think you are talking about the legendary Phineas Gage who lost a large chunk of his prefrontal cortex in the accident and whose injuries later inspired development of the medical miracle that is the prefrontal lobotomy.

The dude even has his own webpage, the GAGEPAGE.

My second cousin, Ronnie Zissel (sp; I've never seen the name spelled out), had a similar experience when playing around with a bronze canon. It changed his personality and he suffered from a type of aphasia--he got his intonations wrong; no problem here, but in China he would be unintelligable. (I have only my mother's words to go on, so take that for what it's worth.)

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-10-13 10:07pm

wilfulton wrote:Wasn't one of the denizens of Mike's hate mail page claiming to have half a brain, yet be really smart?

Well, Stuwart Davies claimed that he had a disparity between his hemispherical capacities:

Stuwart Dumbass wrote:I will read more before I am prepaired to argue them though and hope that you will consider my points before then. I also appologise for my grammar and spelling. One half of my brain has a 185 point IQ, while the other resembles "Forest Gump" and they are disconected by one of the origional casses of Dyslexia on record. ( I would sincerely appreciate a spell checker for this feedback device.)

Maybe he's your fellow.

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2005-10-14 04:01am

Ah Stewie, he even invented dyslexia.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2005-10-14 05:51am

Zero132132 wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:Actually, it is known that the left brain can take over all of the critical functions the right brain provides, and vice versa. So basic skills and abilities would still be intact, such as spacial awareness and language. However, people who survive serious brain injury are known from anecdotal accounts to develop radically different personalities from what they formerly were. I remember reading about a man who had a railroad spike or somthing jammed through his brain. They removed it with no serious complication, and after months of rehabilitation, he functioned normally except for one thing: he became a virtual sociopath. Lying to his wife and kids and treating others cruelly, he was known for violent outbursts of temper. Of course, I haven't heard of any corresponding medical studies on the subject, so take it with a grain of salt.
I've heard of this account as well in my psych course, so I assume there's something to it. But wasn't that nail driven through the frontal lobe?[/quote

Nope. It was a railroad spike an involved and accident with explosives while building a railroad. It's from the 19th Century - the man's name was Phineas Gage. http://www.deakin.edu.au/hbs/GAGEPAGE/

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-10-14 10:21am

Broomstick wrote:Nope. It was a railroad spike an involved and accident with explosives while building a railroad.

Warning, Nitpick Follows:

It wasn't a railroad spike. It was a tamping iron.

He was working on a tunnel IIRC and he was using the iron to pack the explosives into the holes hammered into the rock so that they could advance the tunnel. The explosives went off and tore through his face and frontal lobes. You can see pictures here from another page through the link you provided.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-10-14 10:22am

Edit: err... the spike tore though his face not the explosives, obviously.

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2005-10-14 09:52pm

Important lesson learned, when tamping explosives DO NOT USE METAL. Metal on metal contact is but one thing of many that produces sparks, things that explosives enjoy the company of so much that they tend to...well...explode.

As for our living relic, I do wonder if he really isn't brain damaged. Maybe he thought he was being funny, but the sheer volume of dumbfuckery (and the amount of postings...) makes me wonder.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-10-14 11:29pm

I'm just going to wear a helmet 24x7 now, if it's all right with you folks.

The Spartan · Post by **The Spartan** » 2005-10-15 01:14am

wilfulton wrote:Important lesson learned, when tamping explosives DO NOT USE METAL. Metal on metal contact is but one thing of many that produces sparks, things that explosives enjoy the company of so much that they tend to...well...explode.

Actually there probably wasn't any metal-to-metal contact. Rock and metal maybe...

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-10-15 08:27am

Just as a side note, we've gotten just a wee bit off topic here... aint we supposed to be talking about the OP?