Should Gender Segregated Education be abollished?

[Broomstick]

Oops, I'd forgotten that this issue was not symmetrical across gender.

In the past I've also heard that girls prefer not having to try to impress the guys. I've also heard that some "smart" girls feel pressured to underperform, so as not to "scare off" guys that they're interested in, by appearing too brainy. We all like 'em bare-foot-and-pregnant-in-the-kitchen, not acting like rocket-scientists, don'tch-know?

You think you're being facetious by poking fun at that. My sister is one of the smartest people in her class, and she has a shit ton of trouble because of it. All the guys find it intimidating that she's smart, hot, and can give back lip. (Yes, I called my sister hot. Mainly because every guy keeps saying that. UGH!)

Have to second that, with a few caveats.

Yes, in high school young men do tend to find smat, hot chicks intimidating. A lot of young men find all women intimidating to one degree or another, and smart+hot just makes it worse.

Truth is, I still have to deal with insecure jackasses in my life.

But that's a lot of what it is - insecurity. On both sides. I don't see any way to make the transition from child to adulthood totally painless.

My personal take on the issue is that options are good. People ARE different, after all - some will thrive best in a co-ed environment and some best in a single-sex environment. Since I'm a woman who happily functions in heavily male-dominated environments I'm quite happy I had a co-ed education, but I've survived the occassionall all-woman circumstance and can see merits in that approach, too.

I'm quite content with the current US situation where public schools are co-ed but if a parent feels strongly about the issue they can opt for private. We still have a few colleges that are single-sex, too.

[Ace Pace]

I think I agree here with the segregated but near. Keep them academicly seperate, while it does make it harder to get used to the fact the other gender has a differant world view on some major topics, its far more helpful academicly. While during breaks, activities, etc. keep them together, let us have fun.


It is VERY distracting being in a class filled with girls, even if they are a minority, your grades drop as you waste your time looking at other people instead of down at a test paper.

[Hillary]

I LOVED being in a girl only school. And it wasn't like we didn't interact with guys...there was a guy only school across the street (our "brother" school...we did most charity events and fund raisers and other activities with them). But being in a girl only atmosphere allowed for more of us to feel independent. Theres tons of studies out there showing how girls will participate more in class if they are alone without boys. I can recall having many conversations about the benefits we felt the school had; most girls said they enjoyed not having to "doll themselves up" and that they felt more empowered to speak up at Nardin than they did at their co-ed elementary schools. The athletes agreed, most of the time, that not having to compete for attention with the boy's teams was also a great benefit.

So does this mean that women don't participate fully in the workplace then? All smart kids get bullied, not just girls. I also don't buy this idea that girls don't "doll themselves up" unless they are amongst boys.

Personally, I think society benefits more from both genders interacting throughout their school lives than it does a few better grades from separating them. Much the same arguments are made in favour of single faith schools, which are quite clearly a BAD thing.

[Hillary]

Since I'm a woman who happily functions in heavily male-dominated environments I'm quite happy I had a co-ed education,

Are you sure that this isn't the other way around? You had a co-ed education, so you are happy in male-dominated environments. Just a thought.

[Cairber]

I LOVED being in a girl only school. And it wasn't like we didn't interact with guys...there was a guy only school across the street (our "brother" school...we did most charity events and fund raisers and other activities with them). But being in a girl only atmosphere allowed for more of us to feel independent. Theres tons of studies out there showing how girls will participate more in class if they are alone without boys. I can recall having many conversations about the benefits we felt the school had; most girls said they enjoyed not having to "doll themselves up" and that they felt more empowered to speak up at Nardin than they did at their co-ed elementary schools. The athletes agreed, most of the time, that not having to compete for attention with the boy's teams was also a great benefit.

So does this mean that women don't participate fully in the workplace then? All smart kids get bullied, not just girls. I also don't buy this idea that girls don't "doll themselves up" unless they are amongst boys.

Personally, I think society benefits more from both genders interacting throughout their school lives than it does a few better grades from separating them. Much the same arguments are made in favour of single faith schools, which are quite clearly a BAD thing.

I specifically stated that my school had conversations about this very topic, and the girls, for the most part, said they felt more empowered to speak up at Nardin, liked that they didn't have to get "dolled up" (and those were the EXACT words used), and enjoyed not having to fight for recognition for their sports teams.

How you took that to translate to "women don't participate in the workplace" is beyond me. In YOUR humble, yet overlooking, opinion, it is lost that a choice needs to exist for those girls or boys who work better in a same-sex environment. Just as in teacher certification you are taught to accomodate students who learn and take in information differently, why shouldn't the choice exist for students who learn better in a same sex environment? Due to the law, this choice may only exist in the private school, but it is still there and thriving because its market exists and is provided for accordingly.

[Cairber]

Since I'm a woman who happily functions in heavily male-dominated environments I'm quite happy I had a co-ed education,

Are you sure that this isn't the other way around? You had a co-ed education, so you are happy in male-dominated environments. Just a thought.

That's quite the logically jump you have made there in your suggestion. You seem to think that people don't have natural preferences or preferences that are already formed before school. I have to wonder what you would think about different types of learners.

[Darth Wong]

I wish people wouldn't compare this issue to that of racial segregation. You don't have the kind of major and generally intractable differences between races that you do between genders, barring unusual scenarios such as hermaphrodites.

[Gil Hamilton]

So does this mean that women don't participate fully in the workplace then? All smart kids get bullied, not just girls. I also don't buy this idea that girls don't "doll themselves up" unless they are amongst boys.

There is a major psychological difference between a kid getting bullied because they are smart and girls purposely acting dumb and underperforming because they are afraid that boys won't like them if they are smart, you know.

[The Guid]

I wish people wouldn't compare this issue to that of racial segregation. You don't have the kind of major and generally intractable differences between races that you do between genders, barring unusual scenarios such as hermaphrodites.

The reason it happens is because certain people I have heard speak when I was younger told me that the differences in gender are not actually real - they are societies influence. I don't know enough to really justify that position, and its not actually one I even hold myself, but if you are starting from a premise that men and women are the same at the fundamental mental level then I can see it being comparable to the race issue.

[Hillary]

I LOVED being in a girl only school. And it wasn't like we didn't interact with guys...there was a guy only school across the street (our "brother" school...we did most charity events and fund raisers and other activities with them). But being in a girl only atmosphere allowed for more of us to feel independent. Theres tons of studies out there showing how girls will participate more in class if they are alone without boys. I can recall having many conversations about the benefits we felt the school had; most girls said they enjoyed not having to "doll themselves up" and that they felt more empowered to speak up at Nardin than they did at their co-ed elementary schools. The athletes agreed, most of the time, that not having to compete for attention with the boy's teams was also a great benefit.

So does this mean that women don't participate fully in the workplace then? All smart kids get bullied, not just girls. I also don't buy this idea that girls don't "doll themselves up" unless they are amongst boys.

Personally, I think society benefits more from both genders interacting throughout their school lives than it does a few better grades from separating them. Much the same arguments are made in favour of single faith schools, which are quite clearly a BAD thing.

I specifically stated that my school had conversations about this very topic, and the girls, for the most part, said they felt more empowered to speak up at Nardin, liked that they didn't have to get "dolled up" (and those were the EXACT words used), and enjoyed not having to fight for recognition for their sports teams.

How you took that to translate to "women don't participate in the workplace" is beyond me. In YOUR humble, yet overlooking, opinion, it is lost that a choice needs to exist for those girls or boys who work better in a same-sex environment. Just as in teacher certification you are taught to accomodate students who learn and take in information differently, why shouldn't the choice exist for students who learn better in a same sex environment? Due to the law, this choice may only exist in the private school, but it is still there and thriving because its market exists and is provided for accordingly.

Woah, hold on there. The point I am making is that this whole argument that girls don't participate with boys around |is rather suspect as, if that were the case, they also wouldn't do so in the workplace - something that patently isn't so.

As for the "dressing-up" point, we'll simply have to disagree.

I repeat that, in my opinion, mixed-sex schools are more beneficial to society - the fact that there is demand for single sex schools is rather besides the point.

One final question - if girls (or boys) cannot function effectively in a mixed-sex school, how do they cope when they have to go out and work?

[Hillary]

So does this mean that women don't participate fully in the workplace then? All smart kids get bullied, not just girls. I also don't buy this idea that girls don't "doll themselves up" unless they are amongst boys.

There is a major psychological difference between a kid getting bullied because they are smart and girls purposely acting dumb and underperforming because they are afraid that boys won't like them if they are smart, you know.

You're right, but this is a problem with society, not single-sex schools.

[Ace Pace]

One final question - if girls (or boys) cannot function effectively in a mixed-sex school, how do they cope when they have to go out and work?

By the time they get to work, asumming quality time in higher education, the hormone overdose has lessened to more normal levels.

[Hillary]

Since I'm a woman who happily functions in heavily male-dominated environments I'm quite happy I had a co-ed education,

Are you sure that this isn't the other way around? You had a co-ed education, so you are happy in male-dominated environments. Just a thought.

That's quite the logically jump you have made there in your suggestion. You seem to think that people don't have natural preferences or preferences that are already formed before school. I have to wonder what you would think about different types of learners.

No more than your post suggests that people aren't affected by their environment. Of course, it's somewhere in the middle, but how are boys/girls who are not comfortable in the company of the opposite sex going to get over this hurdle if you make the effort to segregate them in their schooling.

[Hillary]

One final question - if girls (or boys) cannot function effectively in a mixed-sex school, how do they cope when they have to go out and work?

By the time they get to work, asumming quality time in higher education, the hormone overdose has lessened to more normal levels.

Not when I was 18, it hadn't

[Cairber]

So does this mean that women don't participate fully in the workplace then? All smart kids get bullied, not just girls. I also don't buy this idea that girls don't "doll themselves up" unless they are amongst boys.

Personally, I think society benefits more from both genders interacting throughout their school lives than it does a few better grades from separating them. Much the same arguments are made in favour of single faith schools, which are quite clearly a BAD thing.

I specifically stated that my school had conversations about this very topic, and the girls, for the most part, said they felt more empowered to speak up at Nardin, liked that they didn't have to get "dolled up" (and those were the EXACT words used), and enjoyed not having to fight for recognition for their sports teams.

How you took that to translate to "women don't participate in the workplace" is beyond me. In YOUR humble, yet overlooking, opinion, it is lost that a choice needs to exist for those girls or boys who work better in a same-sex environment. Just as in teacher certification you are taught to accomodate students who learn and take in information differently, why shouldn't the choice exist for students who learn better in a same sex environment? Due to the law, this choice may only exist in the private school, but it is still there and thriving because its market exists and is provided for accordingly.

Woah, hold on there. The point I am making is that this whole argument that girls don't participate with boys around |is rather suspect as, if that were the case, they also wouldn't do so in the workplace - something that patently isn't so.

As for the "dressing-up" point, we'll simply have to disagree.

I repeat that, in my opinion, mixed-sex schools are more beneficial to society - the fact that there is demand for single sex schools is rather besides the point.

One final question - if girls (or boys) cannot function effectively in a mixed-sex school, how do they cope when they have to go out and work?

Unless they are shut in a box (which is a parental, not a school issue) they will have interactions with boys: Sporting events, dances, friends from co-ed schools, brothers of friends, friends of their parents, child hood friends and their friends, going out to eat, the movies, the mall, parties, assemblies (ours had the boys school there for them), religious activities, community activities, volumteer organizations, co-ed clubs or outside school sports, community center sports teams....should I go on some more?

[Ace Pace]

One final question - if girls (or boys) cannot function effectively in a mixed-sex school, how do they cope when they have to go out and work?

By the time they get to work, asumming quality time in higher education, the hormone overdose has lessened to more normal levels.

Not when I was 18, it hadn't

Note I said higher education? Isn't the minimum for any degree atleast 3 years? By 21 you're over that hormonal peak and ready to work.

[Cairber]

Are you sure that this isn't the other way around? You had a co-ed education, so you are happy in male-dominated environments. Just a thought.

That's quite the logically jump you have made there in your suggestion. You seem to think that people don't have natural preferences or preferences that are already formed before school. I have to wonder what you would think about different types of learners.

No more than your post suggests that people aren't affected by their environment. Of course, it's somewhere in the middle, but how are boys/girls who are not comfortable in the company of the opposite sex going to get over this hurdle if you make the effort to segregate them in their schooling.

They are not uncomfortable around boys! they LEARN better in same sex schools.

[Cairber]

I should qualify that...not "uncomfortable" in the way you are making it out to be. These girls (or boys when talking all boys school) are not socially inept; they don't chose same sex schools becuase they can't talk to the opposite sex.

[Hillary]

I specifically stated that my school had conversations about this very topic, and the girls, for the most part, said they felt more empowered to speak up at Nardin, liked that they didn't have to get "dolled up" (and those were the EXACT words used), and enjoyed not having to fight for recognition for their sports teams.

How you took that to translate to "women don't participate in the workplace" is beyond me. In YOUR humble, yet overlooking, opinion, it is lost that a choice needs to exist for those girls or boys who work better in a same-sex environment. Just as in teacher certification you are taught to accomodate students who learn and take in information differently, why shouldn't the choice exist for students who learn better in a same sex environment? Due to the law, this choice may only exist in the private school, but it is still there and thriving because its market exists and is provided for accordingly.

Woah, hold on there. The point I am making is that this whole argument that girls don't participate with boys around |is rather suspect as, if that were the case, they also wouldn't do so in the workplace - something that patently isn't so.

As for the "dressing-up" point, we'll simply have to disagree.

I repeat that, in my opinion, mixed-sex schools are more beneficial to society - the fact that there is demand for single sex schools is rather besides the point.

One final question - if girls (or boys) cannot function effectively in a mixed-sex school, how do they cope when they have to go out and work?

Unless they are shut in a box (which is a parental, not a school issue) they will have interactions with boys: Sporting events, dances, friends from co-ed schools, brothers of friends, friends of their parents, child hood friends and their friends, going out to eat, the movies, the mall, parties, assemblies (ours had the boys school there for them), religious activities, community activities, volumteer organizations, co-ed clubs or outside school sports, community center sports teams....should I go on some more?

Not those who are instictively nervous of the opposite sex (and I'm talking both boys and girls here). It is pretty easy to avoid any contact - my school held no joint events with the Girls' school. Maybe things are different in the US.

[Hillary]

By the time they get to work, asumming quality time in higher education, the hormone overdose has lessened to more normal levels.

Not when I was 18, it hadn't

Note I said higher education? Isn't the minimum for any degree atleast 3 years? By 21 you're over that hormonal peak and ready to work.

Note to self: learn to read the whole post, especially when it's only one sentence

[Ace Pace]

Note to self: learn to read the whole post, especially when it's only one sentence

No problem, gets the best of us.

*walks out*

[Cairber]

Just because a certain school does the same-sex education thing poorly, does this mean it should be abolished completely? Everyone learns differently, and we need to accomidate them all. There needs to be outlets for the student who learns by sight, there needs to be safe guards for the student who tests poorly, there needs to an academic environment for women and men who learn more effectively in a same-sex environment.

Now, there is a definite element of parental responisbility here. Since they are the guardian of the underage child, they should be warey if their child seems to be unable to make any opposite sex friends. They should be encouraged to join outside school sports, attend co-ed assemblies or parties or dances (every child is different in what kind of social situations they enjoy.).

[drachefly]

I went to the American Boychoir School from age 9 to 13. As you might guess from the name, it was all-male. On top of that, we were quite isolated, with our only contact with the outside being when we were on tour and a thrice-annual dance with a nearby all-girls school.

Was that harmful? Well, I had all of high school to work things out, and I had an active and reasonably normal dating life in college.

Though all of my girlfriends before the one I married were from Bryn Mawr.
In case you don't know, that's a womens' college. It is associated with Haverford (which is mixed) pretty closely -- you can freely enroll in the other's classes, it is technically possible to live at the other college, and there is a bus running between the campuses at all times except 2 AM - 6:30 AM. Having known a large number of Mawrtyrs, it seems they weren't harmed for lack of men. The few (~3) mysandristic/androphobic mawrtyrs I ran across had problems that ran deeper than the school they attended.

So, what do I think?

On grade school level (-13), I think I suffered some for lack of female presence, but the isolation I experienced then was somewhat extraordinary.

I think that on the high school level (14-18) you definitely need to have the opposite sex available in some fashion.
A good compromise might be to have the obligatory classes separated, but leave the electives mixed. The focus of the students is likely to be better in electives; and anyway, you might only be able to fill a class if you mix them.

On the college level, (19+), whatever the individual wants... at that point I'm not one to say 'no', really.

[RedImperator]

It's utter nonsense to compare school with the workplace. Learning isn't anything like work, despite the superficial similarities--you have entirely different processes going on in the brain, even when work is something highly intellectual like scientific research, engineering, or even teaching. There's also the fact that when you're talking about high school, you're talking about adolescents, who are not the same as adults, and it's adults who are interacting in the workplace, not teenagers.

You need to be more flexible with kids in school than you would be with adults in the workplace, and you need to consider the immaturity of kids and recognize that while adults might be able to function fine in a co-ed environment, teenagers might not, at least not in all situations. The most important thing going on in a classroom is learning, not socializing (in the psychological sense of the word). There are plenty of other oppotunities to do that outside the classroom, but very few opportunities for academics after the bell rings. If gender segregated classrooms are better learning environments, then classrooms should be gender segregated.

[Broomstick]

Since I'm a woman who happily functions in heavily male-dominated environments I'm quite happy I had a co-ed education,

Are you sure that this isn't the other way around? You had a co-ed education, so you are happy in male-dominated environments. Just a thought.

Certainly it's possible.

On the other hand, even at an early age I showed a tendecy to prefer playing with my male cousins over my female cousins in mixed groups, before schooling came up. Partly it was likely for a rougher style of play than most girls, but also because boys were just so darn interesting. Which might have been an effect of having no brothers. Nor is a matter of prefering male-dominated environments over female ones - I have quite happily existed in those as well. It's just that many of my interests happen to be in areas that are still "male turf". I probably would have been drawn there regardless of the gender mix of my school, although a co-ed education probably helped in my ability to adapt to "boy's club" situations.