Don't Ghosts and poltergist activity violate COE?

[Spartan]

I was thinking about the supposed existence of ghosts after being forced to watch that simply aweful "White Noise" movie.

Let me just state that I don't believe in ghosts, gods, or anything else considered to be supernatural. But I have had many otherwise rational people state that the have had ghostly experiences.

Ofcourse when you tell these people that they imagined it, your in for a hell of an argument.

What I really want to know is their any science that that would forbid the existence of ghost, etc?


1. Wouldn't ghosts assuming that they exist, be like a standing energy wave of something? <Note: I didn't pull that out of my ass, some uh-hmm... parapsychologist have speculated as much.

2. If their just energy, how could they interact or even sense the living? They would exist at light speed I would imagine.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The tools used in Ghostbusters to "detect" the spirits were actually designed after consulting scientists as to, if ghosts actually existed, what sort of physical detection could be used to find them. I'd have to give the commentary another listen to see if they listed any of the specifics.

[Vendetta]

What I really want to know is their any science that that would forbid the existence of ghost, etc?

Yes.

There is no evidence for a mechanism for any aspect of self to continue after physical death.

The most likely explanation is that there is no evidence for it because there is no such thing.

[Alan Bolte]

There's a bit of a difference between, "it is most logical that the lack of evidence for ghosts is due to there being no such thing," and "nothing could exist that has X list of properties, commonly associated with the concept of a ghost." Spartan, what properties are we looking at here?

[Dooey Jo]

What I really want to know is their any science that that would forbid the existence of ghost, etc?

Well, since there has yet to have been a solid definition of what a ghost actually is, science cannot say anything about wether such a thing could exist or not. Of course, the parapsychologists' explanations are almost always 100 % pure nonsense.

1. Wouldn't ghosts assuming that they exist, be like a standing energy wave of something? <Note: I didn't pull that out of my ass, some uh-hmm... parapsychologist have speculated as much.

Oh yes, I know, I've heard that one too. Of course, they fail to explain how a standing wave could explain any of the supposedly observed phenomena.
I especially like what a "psychic" said on TV once (they have an awful show about Danish ghosts here. I try to avoid it):
"Einstein said that matter and energy are the same thing. I think they (the ghosts) can use this to move through walls."

2. If their just energy, how could they interact or even sense the living? They would exist at light speed I would imagine.

They're made of "spiritual energy", obviously. This type of energy can seemingly do whatever the parapsychologists wants it to do. I've also heard that ghosts are made from electrical energy that floats out from the brain when people die. It is of course a clever way to explain the effects some ghosts have on voltmeters, but it just doesn't work. A cloud of charges can't just float around in air; it would disperse within seconds.

A theory about ghosts must be able to explain all of the observed events, which are:

• Local changes in temperature
• Local voltage changes
• Local magnetic changes
• Relocation of physical things
• Movement of physical things (in which I include knocking on walls and stuff, as well as touching people)
• Occasionaly visibility
• Inducing feelings in people
• Voices that only are audible when recoreded on tapes
• Produce dust-like orbs sometimes when photographed

And probably much more that I just can't seem to think of now. Since their hypothesis is that all of this is caused by a single type of entity, they need a theory for that type of entity which can explain all of it. So far they have only managed to come up with ideas that can explain only one of the things (like the floating blob of charge), and in most cases, does so poorly. And sometimes, their ideas for explaining one thing even conflicts with their explanations for other things. A blob of charges would for instance not at all be able to move through walls, and a blob of "pure" energy (ie photons) would not be able to create voltages (excluding photoelectric effects which are clearly not at work here).

And that's with accepting that all of these so called observations are accurate, which is obvious that they are not in many cases.

[Lagmonster]

What I really want to know is their any science that that would forbid the existence of ghost, etc?

Well, since there has yet to have been a solid definition of what a ghost actually is, science cannot say anything about wether such a thing could exist or not. Of course, the parapsychologists' explanations are almost always 100 % pure nonsense.

Among other things. The only current connecting trait of ghosts is that they are 'leftover people'. Paranormal believers can't even agree on whether they are supposed to be actual sentient entities or 'time imprints' that go on doing the same thing for eternity like images burned on a screen. Other than that and an agreed-upon translucency when viewed without psychic abilities, there's no real common thread; ghost nuts even adhere to beliefs of dozens of different KINDS of ghosts, that run the full range of abilities, appearances, causes, etc., each more fanciful than the last.

1. Wouldn't ghosts assuming that they exist, be like a standing energy wave of something? <Note: I didn't pull that out of my ass, some uh-hmm... parapsychologist have speculated as much.

Oh yes, I know, I've heard that one too. Of course, they fail to explain how a standing wave could explain any of the supposedly observed phenomena.

Ghosts have been described as everything from 'quantum rifts' to magical 'souls' to even transcended beings of 'pure energy'. It's all random imagination; nobody really tries to validate a theory - they just leap upon some fringe area of physics, wave their hands, and claim ghosts inhabit that field, albeit barely one or two steps away from scientific revelation.

All ghost hunters that aren't debunkers are divided sharply into two groups: The ones that want it to be a principle of physics, and so use pseudoscience like it was the breath of life, and the ones who are content for it to be magic, and carry around crosses and angel paraphenelia and exorcism rites and wierd candles and such.

Both are equally deluded, although in my opinion the 'it's science' folk are a more contemptible kind of deluded, since they have made a pretext of having education.

[Majin Gojira]

Last I checked, Para-weirdos stated that Ghosts draw on ambient energy (IE: Temperature) in order to do their wierdness, explaining the temperature fluxuations in a "Haunted House"

[Dooey Jo]

Last I checked, Para-weirdos stated that Ghosts draw on ambient energy (IE: Temperature) in order to do their wierdness, explaining the temperature fluxuations in a "Haunted House"

That's another one of those ideas that only explain one thing, in this case the temperature changes (not the hot spots though, only cold spots). It does not explain how the ghosts would put this drawn energy to use for weirdness (or how the hell they would draw the enery in first place. Typical pseudo-science: Explains with empty words, not mechanisms).

[Junghalli]

What I really want to know is their any science that that would forbid the existence of ghost, etc?

Obviously this would depend on how one defines "ghost". If we use the common definition (a departed spirit) then I would say no, because that definition is so nebulous it would pretty much be one of those things that can never be disproven, only proven. What science can say is that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for their existence.

1. Wouldn't ghosts assuming that they exist, be like a standing energy wave of something?

I have no idea, aside from the fact that my bullshit sense is tingling at the way that sounds.

2. If their just energy, how could they interact or even sense the living? They would exist at light speed I would imagine.

If we use the incredibly nebulous common definition of ghosts I imagine there are probably billions of possible mechanisms one could pull out of ones ass.

As for you original question (would they violate conservation of energy) that again depends on what kind of ghost you're talking about. The favorite explanation I hear by so-called psychics and people like that (for the record I don't believe a word of it) is that the departed exist on some sort of different plane of reality. Seems about as reasonable as any other explanation one might pull out of ones nether regions. In this case they would interact with our universe in much the same way 40K warp powers interact with it; by pulling energy and/or matter from their "plane" into ours. This would not violate CoE.
As an aside, the existence of any type of ghost that did violate CoE would be effectively considered disproven by science.

[Spartan]

Thanks for the replies.

I was mostly concerned with whether or not the concept of ghost violate some of the more basic laws of physics. I can't imagine that they would not violate COE or GR, for instance. I read some articles on infra-sound and how it can induce hallucentation, and ghostly apparitions. That seems most plausible. That and the fact that human tend to have horrible recall, and vivid imaginations, probably accounts for most sightings.

[drachefly]

A cloud of charges can't just float around in air; it would disperse within seconds.

Uncancelled charges would; but if it's a charge separation then it can persist. Ever heard of ball lightning?

Not that ghosts exist; but this might help explain what has been observed.

[Dooey Jo]

A cloud of charges can't just float around in air; it would disperse within seconds.

Uncancelled charges would; but if it's a charge separation then it can persist. Ever heard of ball lightning?

Well yes, but I didn't know that there was a conclusive explanation for them. Is there? Even if there was a charge separation at work here, wouldn't the natural charges in the air eventually wear it down? Surely it wouldn't be able to linger for years or decades, as ghosts are supposed to do... And it still wouldn't be able to move through walls...

Of course, it might work as a rationalisation for some electrical observations, but ghosts wouldn't be able to be made of the stuff (obviously)...