Should Gender Segregated Education be abollished?

[Pick]

I think it helps girls, but not guys.

It's part of the sphere of expectation, as well. If you remove the mentality that "boys are good at math/science, not you" which was very pervasive at my old school, then I think girls are more likely to have a good chance to actually perform without sinking down merely because they think they're already fighting an uphill battle. Which in some ways, I still think they are.

[Broomstick]

I wish people wouldn't compare this issue to that of racial segregation. You don't have the kind of major and generally intractable differences between races that you do between genders, barring unusual scenarios such as hermaphrodites.

The reason it happens is because certain people I have heard speak when I was younger told me that the differences in gender are not actually real - they are societies influence. I don't know enough to really justify that position, and its not actually one I even hold myself, but if you are starting from a premise that men and women are the same at the fundamental mental level then I can see it being comparable to the race issue.

I disagree that men and women are NOT different on certain fundamental levels. Certainly we have more in common than not, but there are areas where the differences exist as innate things.

My personal view is there are three levels to this gender similarity/difference thing:

1) Society/environmental differences - I hope I don't have to explain these in detail, but it's the stuff like appropirate hair length, who wears cosmetics, wigs (and what sort of hairpieces), certain articles of clothing, who does and doesn't paint their nails. These can be enormously important things, such that imposing the "wrong" attribute on a person can cause enormous psychological distress, even be on the level of torture. But even those of us under the influence of these influences can usually recognize that how we feel and act out these roles is due to our upbringing. That makes it no more comfortable for a woman to have her head shaved, or a man to wear a dress, but I think all of us can see these are rather abitrary things that in a different society might be completely reversed. And because these are things imposed from without they are the most likely ones to be "broken" by individuals - such as drag queens wearing women's clothes, or some of the women I work with who choose to shave or very closely crop their hair.

2) Statistical differences - this is the stuff like "language ability" and "spatial abilities" which does show up in different proportions in the genders. But while women tend to excel in language and communications, we all know or know of men who accomplished linguists, writers, politicians, etc. all of which display exceptional ability in this "feminine" area. Likewise, there are women of superior spatial abilities (I'm one of them - on tests of this ability I outscore 99% of men, much less women.) There's no denying that social influences and training account for some of it, but there's also (I feel) strong evidence that some of this is, perhaps a great deal of it, is innate in individuals. No different than saying most people over six feet are male, even as we acknowledge that there are normal females of unusual height who are six feet and taller. Environment influences final height, but no one denies there's a genetic component as well.

3) Innate differences - The older I get, the more I realize men and women DO think differently in a few, select areas. I can trace out the "male logic" in an intellectual and methodical manner and get it "right" about 75% of the time... but I never get it on a gut level. And even the most understanding and perceptive of men is going to face the same problem with women. Granted, these are just small areas of life, but they are frequently very important areas involving stuff like sex. I mean, men and women do not experience desire or sex in the same manner (which is the most obvious area this applies).

Then the question becomes how much does society tolerate someone stepping over the line for 1 and 2.... There are societies were everything is assigned to one gender or another and deviations are not tolerated. So if you don't fit well, you're screwed for life. US society is actually, in historical context, pretty tolerant - though far from perfect - in this respect at this time.

Don't believe me? 100 years ago it was not socially acceptable for women to wear pants except in extremely limited circumstances, and even then they were "bloomers", a form of trousers clearly distinguished from those worn by men. Men did not become nurses, except in the military when female nurses were not available. 100 years ago women could not vote, now they can. Women can enter into professions now that were not possible a century ago - hell, I remember when I was Wicked's age that women were banned from many military aircraft period, and I'm old enough to remember when it was legal to pay a woman less than a man for the same work, and women could not become airline pilots, police officers, or fire fighters no matter how qualified. Reversals for men are not so apparent, although our culture, at least in urban areas, has long allowed "deviations" in regards to ethnic background such as kilts for Scots and dress-like apparel for other groups. It used to be that women unquestionably had custody in any divorce or custody dispute (except in the most egregious examples of abuse) and now, although still not on a level playing field, a man is much more likely to have joint custody or even primary custody of his offspring such circumstances than was the case even 25 years ago.

The move towards less ridgid roles probably accounts for a diminishing of same-sex education in the US (won't speak for other countries, as I don't live there). If everything in society is divided according to gender then so should education be segregated, and education geared to conditioning children in the appropriate roles. In such a society it is desirable to subdue "inappropriate" desires and leanings. If a society is more egalitarian then co-ed education will probably be the norm. However, no matter how socially equal men and women become there will still be a biological influence on them, and a statistical skew. Men tend to be more agressive and risk-taking than women - that will affect which professions and leisure-time activities they choose. The biological child-bearing role has an effect on all women, even those who do not themselves reproduce and that, too, will affect their choices in life. I think we will always see some professions dominated by one gender or another no matter how equal we make opportunity.

[wilfulton]

I vote no, gender segregation should not be outlawed, and this is why.

Some of these private schools cater to rich misfits, kids who have failed in school, been in trouble with the law, and have parents with money. Some of these private schools are rather small, and don't have the facilities to accomodate both. The private school that my dad worked at for a few years was one such. They tried taking on a female student, and it really did not work out. This isn't so much a matter of us and them, as it is a matter how you keep the male students from forming the proverbial chain.

I do not personally support said form of segregation, and it should certainly not be a part of public education, but a private institution should be allowed to decide who it will and will not accept. Don't like it, don't support it.

[Redleader34]

Since I actualy go to one of these gender seprated schools I actualy freel a ceartain offence to the attidude that same sex schools should be banned. In ffact they should be encouraged. One advantage of no girls is humor. We c an actaly speek more freely without risk of bcoming the gosip subject, and who says you cant see girls OUTSIDE of school(note i go to Chaminade hence my sig.)

[drachefly]

It's part of the sphere of expectation, as well. If you remove the mentality that "boys are good at math/science, not you" which was very pervasive at my old school, then I think girls are more likely to have a good chance to actually perform...

I remember that in my high school the advanced calculus class was about 50/50 girls and boys... Physics, however, was quite unbalanced, with 3 and 8. In neither class was it implied they weren't as good.

[drachefly]

I can trace out the "male logic" in an intellectual and methodical manner and get it "right" about 75% of the time... but I never get it on a gut level.

what sorts of 'male logic' are you thinking of here? And what do you mean by 'right'?

[Broomstick]

I just knew someone was going to ask that!

I'll start at the end and work backwards. By "right" I mean that I correctly anticipated how a man would make a decision or react in a particular situation when, in the same situation, it was almost certain a woman would react differently.

By "male logic" I mean a thought process that makes perfect and obvious sense to the male half of the species but is initially baffling to the female half. (I am quite willing to admit that there is a corrsponding "female logic" that men find baffling). I don't want to just rattle off some half-assed example.

I'll try to think of a good example, then come back.

And I don't mean that men and women are always thinking differently... only part of the time. There's a hell of a lot of common ground between the two halves of humanity.