"God" would be sadistic

Lone_Prodigy · Post by **Lone_Prodigy** » 2005-10-15 02:11am

Is it just me, or does anybody else get the feeling that (if God even existed) he is an unimaginably evil SOB? I, for one, am an atheist (the local creationist asshole even called me a "militant atheist"), but I can't believe that the people that do believe in one consider him to be merciful.

Just now I read a true story on the SomthingAwful forums. What a wonderful example of god's mercy: this young kid, Novemthree, had his dental tissue go haywire. This resulted in a huge tumor that consumed most of his face. After numerous surguries, the doctors were able to carve him a face out of the tumor, restoring to him a chance of a normal life. A few weeks after getting out of the hospital, he died of a respiratory infection.

Keep in mind Hurricane Katrina, last year's tsunami, and the uncounted thousands of other disasters, the so-called "God" with omnipotency must be a cruel being that takes pleasure in the suffering of others. That actually fits the Bible. Does anybody else find it wierd that religious nuts preach about the mercy of God, when he would in truth be a causer of genocide on a scale larger than Hitler, Stalin, and every other one combined?

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-10-15 02:48am

Yes.

But that's par for the course there in Christ-Land. They believe in this all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving magical sky pixie, who if all three properties are ascribed to him at once, such disasters could not happen. They say the reconcilliation of the Great Sky Pixie with these properties and the evil in the world is a "mystery", but in reality it's downright paradoxical.

It's worse for fundies. They believe their God can do no wrong and the basis of goodness and morality, when the OT clearly paints God as an evil bastard and the NT doesn't even have the guts to throw out the OT. But try having a rational argument with them.

/me looks around worriedly.

Good. Freddy the Fundie hasn't shown up. v.v=3

Zadius · Post by **Zadius** » 2005-10-15 04:15am

When pressed, you can usually get a fundie to say that they deserved it because they must have been sinners. Even the countless babies who undoubtedly were killed must have been sinners. One fundie even told me "they would have grown up to do evil things also so he saved them they went to heaven instead of going to hell". Stupidness.

The Guid · Post by **The Guid** » 2005-10-15 08:05am

Don't we have a topic similar to this every couple of weeks?

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-10-15 08:30am

Yes, recently, wasn't there a "The 'God is an as hole thread"?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-10-15 08:36am

Of course he would be an asshole. Any God using evolution, even, as a creation method would be a fucking arsehole, since the whole thing is driven by the death and misery of others so you can succeed. imagine how many kittens have died in the history of evolution. That's part of the evil of a god that uses evolution.

Creationist tardery, however, is more of the same. You cannot reason with these people by showing natural and moral evil in the world and a lack of intervention meaning poor moral character. These people believe that a god that can make a realm of eternal torture and remain the archetype of love in all existence.

Cyborg Stan · Post by **Cyborg Stan** » 2005-10-15 09:57am

But... but... somehow, FREE WILL is supposed to handle all of this! (Nevermind it's apparently not needed for people in either Heaven or Hell, the former supposedly being a perfect paradice. Nor is Free Will shown to be such a good thing in the first place. And much of these incidents have no relation to Free Will either way.)

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-15 10:36am

To play the devil's advocate: God is omniscient as well as omnipotent. Just because we don't like or want something doesn't mean that we have the whole big picture in mind or know why things happen, unlike God, who would presumably know everything that's occurring, know why it's occurring, and should know why it'd be a good thing for things to occur as they do. It reminds me of a Scott Adams quote (paraphrased from memory): if a genius does something I don't like, why do I assume he's wrong? That'd go even more so for an all-knowing being. An all-knowing being that assumably loves us all would presumably try to make things the best for us, even if we don't necessarily like it.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-10-15 10:47am

Of course FREE WILL is suposed to solve those problems! The pre-Columbian Aztecs had free will, and they chose not to follow the True God and accept Jesus Christ as their savior, rather their false gods like Quetzalcoatl. Truly, they deserved to burn, even though they had never heard of Jesus.

Or what about the ancient Greeks, following Zeus and Friends. Obviously, they had free will, and obviously they didn't accept Jesus. Even though the savior of mankind didn't exist yet, they were still culpable and deserve the flame.

:roll:

FREDDY THE FUNDIE SEZ: "THAT'S RIGHT, M' SOUTHERN-BORN BRUTHUH! It doesn't matter if yeh never hahrd a' JEEEZIS! Y'GONNA BURN!!! BURN, unless y' accept JEEEEEEZZZZIIS as yer LAWRD AND SABER!! REPENT, sinnahs! REPENT and become sabed by the LAWRD a' MANKAHIND, JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZIII--"

FREDDY THE FUNDIE: "ARRGH! m' spleen!"

Feh. Knew he had to show up sooner or later.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-10-15 10:50am

But a genius isn't all-powerful. There is no logical way that one man coming to harm could increase good in the world, unless he were already evil (like Hitler or something). If God is really that smart, why didn't everyone start out in heaven? The only reason people act badly is due to their upbringing. I have a strange feeling that growing up in Paradise would make everyone turn out cheerful. The only other possible source of criminal behavior is genetics. Some people may be more aggressive or sociopathic than others. Of course, if there is a God, he created them that way, and so is directly responsible for their crimes.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-15 11:21am

wolveraptor wrote:But a genius isn't all-powerful. There is no logical way that one man coming to harm could increase good in the world, unless he were already evil (like Hitler or something). If God is really that smart, why didn't everyone start out in heaven?

A genius also isn't omniscient. My own answer would be that suffering would lead to an increased appreciation of the joys in life. Also, as the best sci-fi comedy cartoon ever (Futurama) showed, a God who always intervenes just makes people dependent. As obviously no one who is alive knows what happens to people when they die with certainity, we don't know what a possible God would have in store. Perhaps there's something requiring our independence and God would rather we earn it than it being handed out. Or perhaps there's unlimited reincarnation so everyone experiences everything. Or other, numerous scenarios. (once more, just playing the devil's advocate)

The only reason people act badly is due to their upbringing. I have a strange feeling that growing up in Paradise would make everyone turn out cheerful. The only other possible source of criminal behavior is genetics. Some people may be more aggressive or sociopathic than others. Of course, if there is a God, he created them that way, and so is directly responsible for their crimes.

If God simply initiated the Big Bang and just let everything occur, would he necessarily be responsible for someone's genetic code, especially if he kept his intervention as limited as possible?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-10-15 11:29am

Akhlut wrote:To play the devil's advocate: God is omniscient as well as omnipotent. Just because we don't like or want something doesn't mean that we have the whole big picture in mind or know why things happen, unlike God, who would presumably know everything that's occurring, know why it's occurring, and should know why it'd be a good thing for things to occur as they do. It reminds me of a Scott Adams quote (paraphrased from memory): if a genius does something I don't like, why do I assume he's wrong? That'd go even more so for an all-knowing being. An all-knowing being that assumably loves us all would presumably try to make things the best for us, even if we don't necessarily like it.

The problem is your first statement is not shown with any validity.

God has been shown to be taken by surprise, and he has been shown limits of his power.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-15 11:40am

Ghost Rider wrote:The problem is your first statement is not shown with any validity.

God has been shown to be taken by surprise, and he has been shown limits of his power.

Which God? The OP doesn't say which God. I, admittedly, don't say which one either. So, hell, to specify, I'll say I'm talking about either Allah, who is "canonically" stated to be omnipotent (if I'm not mistaken) and omnipotence would almost necessarily beget omniscience as well, or I'm talking about the Hindu God from which all things ultimately come from and is also canonically omnipotent (once more, this is if I'm remembering things correctly and truely; if not, I totally concede my points). Or the Roman Catholic/Orthodox God who is omnipotent (tradition counts just as much as Scripture in the Church and the Church says that by tradition, God is omnipotent).

If we're using old-school Yahweh with "only the Bible counts as canon!" then it doesn't really matter what Yahweh does, as our lives are controlled by the petty gods of whatever region we're living in and whatever "tribe" we belong to. As I'm half Greek, I might be under Zeus's sway. Or, since I'm living in northern Wisconsin, I might be under the sway of the local Ojibwe gods. Or something like that. Only the Jews living in Israel have to worry about what Yahweh thinks, with any certainity at all.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-10-15 11:44am

Akhlut wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:The problem is your first statement is not shown with any validity.

God has been shown to be taken by surprise, and he has been shown limits of his power.
Which God? The OP doesn't say which God. I, admittedly, don't say which one either. So, hell, to specify, I'll say I'm talking about either Allah, who is "canonically" stated to be omnipotent (if I'm not mistaken) and omnipotence would almost necessarily beget omniscience as well, or I'm talking about the Hindu God from which all things ultimately come from and is also canonically omnipotent (once more, this is if I'm remembering things correctly and truely; if not, I totally concede my points). Or the Roman Catholic/Orthodox God who is omnipotent (tradition counts just as much as Scripture in the Church and the Church says that by tradition, God is omnipotent).

If we're using old-school Yahweh with "only the Bible counts as canon!" then it doesn't really matter what Yahweh does, as our lives are controlled by the petty gods of whatever region we're living in and whatever "tribe" we belong to. As I'm half Greek, I might be under Zeus's sway. Or, since I'm living in northern Wisconsin, I might be under the sway of the local Ojibwe gods. Or something like that. Only the Jews living in Israel have to worry about what Yahweh thinks, with any certainity at all.

Ah, so you want to play semantics game.

But only AFTER questioned.

Care to establish that before someone points out your arguments falters on your FIRST STATEMENT

?

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-15 11:51am

Ghost Rider wrote:Ah, so you want to play semantics game.

But only AFTER questioned.

Care to establish that before someone points out your arguments falters on your FIRST STATEMENT ?

Mea culpa.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-10-15 02:11pm

You could say that a god who uses plagues, just to make his point is rather evil. Offcourse, others would say Pharao was the bad guy for not listening to a guy in robes

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2005-10-15 02:29pm

wautd wrote:You could say that a god who uses plagues, just to make his point is rather evil. Offcourse, others would say Pharao was the bad guy for not listening to a guy in robes

Didn't god "harden" pharoh's heart so that the guy couldn't do what moses wanted anyways?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-10-15 02:37pm

Stormin wrote:
wautd wrote:You could say that a god who uses plagues, just to make his point is rather evil. Offcourse, others would say Pharao was the bad guy for not listening to a guy in robes

Didn't god "harden" pharoh's heart so that the guy couldn't do what moses wanted anyways?

Yes.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2005-10-15 03:37pm

Ace Pace wrote:
Stormin wrote:
wautd wrote:You could say that a god who uses plagues, just to make his point is rather evil. Offcourse, others would say Pharao was the bad guy for not listening to a guy in robes

Didn't god "harden" pharoh's heart so that the guy couldn't do what moses wanted anyways?
Yes.

what the hell? First time I hear about this. Please explain?

felineki · Post by **felineki** » 2005-10-15 03:49pm

wautd wrote:what the hell? First time I hear about this. Please explain?

Well, when God was sending plagues on Egypt, Moses visited the Pharaoh after each and every plague and demanded that he free the Israelites. And each time, the verses specifically mention that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart", making him stubborn, so that he would refuse. He was making his own excuses to visit more and more destruction upon the Egyptian populace.

felineki · Post by **felineki** » 2005-10-15 03:53pm

Verses:

Exodus 4:21- And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 10:20 -But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27- But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11:10- And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-10-15 03:58pm

Theres also another one, might be one of yours but in the original hebrew, where god hardens Pharoh before Moses goes.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-10-15 04:09pm

Usual fundie reply--an eternity of bliss in heaven will make all the injustices of this life seem trivial.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-10-15 04:11pm

wautd wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:
Stormin wrote:
Didn't god "harden" pharoh's heart so that the guy couldn't do what moses wanted anyways?
Yes.
what the hell? First time I hear about this. Please explain?

Of course the fact that God didn't just smite Pharoh dead proves how ridiculous the entire story is.

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2005-10-15 04:54pm

Akhlut wrote: My own answer would be that suffering would lead to an increased appreciation of the joys in life.

What if there are no joys ? What if someone has nothing but suffering ?