Use of the word "gay" to mean something bad

[McC]

You can't deny that the connection is there in the mind by the mere use of the word.

Actually, I can. As I said, gay has three meanings for me, none of them related. If it's inextricably linked for you, then too bad.

Sure, its only the way we communicate right?

Ah, let me guess. You're one of the people who thinks swearing has some built-in negative context, right? Better to say "Shut the front door" than "Shut the fuck up"? Blow me. Words are words. If the point you're making gets across, the words themselves have no inherent power. It's the meaning with which they're imbued that has the power.

At least "retarded" has some basis in a lack of desire. I appreciate it is harmful to make that connection in the mind but I would not wish mental retardation on anyone yet if someone told me I had to make a few of my friends gay I have a feeling I'd very quickly dole it out. You know why? Because, there's nothing bad about it, nothing disadvantageous, not in and of itself. There may be societal problems involving prejudice but those are becoming less of a problem from year to year.

Retards are the target of scorn and derision from some of the populace, sympathy from others, and indifference from others. Homosexuals are the target of scorn and derision from some of the populace, sympathy from others, and...oh, hey, look, the same fucking thing.

Not according to the Concise Oxford English Dictionairy 2001 it doesn't.

And? So what? Does the concise oxford english dictionary contain every pejorative spoken?

So are you seriously suggesting that one some teen dim witted fool calls someone "gay" he is choosing something completely out of left field? It has no connection in his mind to a stereotype of an effeminate man?

The connection is distant. When I say, "That's so gay," I'm not thinking, "I shall now accuse this thing of being homosexual, which is bad." I instead think, "This is crappy. Gay is a shorter word than crappy." Does this apply to everyone? Probably not. If someone uses the word to mean that being homosexual is bad, guess what: using the word or not using the word isn't going to change their opinion on that matter, so getting your panties in a twist over their use of the word rather than their underlying bigotry is a waste of time.

Congratulations on the most ludicrous overgeneralisation since I woke up. Pick a prize, any prize.

Fuck you. It's a fairly accurate assessment of people who act like this. Or shall I wander off and get a psychologist to reaffirm this for me?

Yes it is, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with this fucking conversation though it does raise a point.

Sure it does. This entire thread relates to a bunch of people getting their panties in a twist over some PC bullshit. Same exact thing in the made-up quote I said.

At my last school people used to go around using the word "nigger." They would use it in the following context: "Oh, you're such a nigger." If that person had done something to inconvinience them or played a prank on them. Did it make them racist? I was never quite sure, but a lot of the attitudes they showed were, I felt, rather racist and prejudiced particularly over issues of immigration. If you were to wander around that school would you be shocked at the one word and just walk straight past the other? Or would you ignore them both because "language means nothing."

The word doesn't mean a damn thing. "Oh, you're such a fliporuf" can have the same meaning. The pre-existing word is just more convenient. If there's an underlying racism to the group, then that's where the use of the term's use comes from -- association with being negroid as a bad thing. It's a matter of association, which is my point. If they're thinking, essentially, "Oh, you're such a black" or some such when saying it, then there's an underlying bigotry that needs addressing, not the word choice. If they're just thinking, "Oh, you're such a fuck up," then it's just another word.

[Stark]

I've never (well, post primary school ) heard the word 'gay' used as a negative when applied to people. The word 'fag', in my opinion, is the cursing version of 'dirty homosexual', not 'gay'. Does anyone hear people say 'he's so gay' in some kind of negative way, instead of 'he appears to be a homosexual'? Nobody aside from backwards morons considers homosexuality to be bad these days, so in my experience the two uses of the word have become separate.

To be honest, I only view this as a valid issue due to the staggering intolerance of homosexuals in certain parts of society. If there wasn't so much hate and violence, I'd think this whole thing was a storm in a teacup.

[Duckie]

Nobody aside from backwards morons considers homosexuality to be bad these days, so in my experience the two uses of the word have become separate.

Nobody besides backwards morons? I shudder to think that of the people I've met personally there have been perhaps 3 enlightened fellows who were not that.

Perhaps it's better in Australia.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I've never (well, post primary school ) heard the word 'gay' used as a negative when applied to people. The word 'fag', in my opinion, is the cursing version of 'dirty homosexual', not 'gay'. Does anyone hear people say 'he's so gay' in some kind of negative way, instead of 'he appears to be a homosexual'? Nobody aside from backwards morons considers homosexuality to be bad these days, so in my experience the two uses of the word have become separate.

To be honest, I only view this as a valid issue due to the staggering intolerance of homosexuals in certain parts of society. If there wasn't so much hate and violence, I'd think this whole thing was a storm in a teacup.

Well, I'm in America, and the majority of the population appear to be "backwards morons". I've heard "gay" used as an insult innumerable times.

[Stark]

Certianly, I was speaking from my personal experience, since that's the only real perspective I've got on language. I don't encounter - or even hear about - much anti-gay discrimination.

I guess that's significant in itself - noone I know considers homosexuality to be a negative. In an environment where a significant bunch of people DID, then use of homosexual-related words *would* be more significant.

[Frank Hipper]

Actually, I can. As I said, gay has three meanings for me, none of them related. If it's inextricably linked for you, then too bad.

Your compartmentalizations, justifications, and personal value judgements mean precisely jack and shit in cultural and linguistic contexts.

Usage of "gay" to describe something as weak or undesirable is inextricably linked to usage of "gay" meaning a homosexual, a weak and undesirable thing in a bigoted culture.

This entire thread relates to a bunch of people getting their panties in a twist over some PC bullshit.

Reading your posts in this, who would have ever expected such a cookie-cutter defense of moronic bigotry.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Stark, I've heard gay people say "He's so gay" in a negative way: apparently some gay men dislike the "flamers" who act all effeminate just to live up to some stereotype. They say that it portrays them all in a bad light.

[Rye]

To be honest, it is only when it is used with a specific bigotry behind it, rather than out of habit, that it really bothers me. Same with anything. Although it may be a term born of bigotry, it is really how it is intended that determines how bad it is, in my view.

I do hold the definitions as seperate meanings, though the homophobia angle can be used in a tongue in cheek manner to generate humour. For example "Repty is so gay, that if he were any gayer, light could not escape his surface." Obviously a real homophobe would not use such an illustration, and it is more lampooning the idea of homosexuality being bad, and just using it as light-hearted jabbing.

Then again, I came from a retarded area, so maybe I've just built up a tolerance to unintended x-bashing in common language and only really care about when it's intended. I mean, I tolerate drills and saws being called "retarded" though I don't hate people with down's syndrome or mental illness.

This is personal apathy, however, and not really meant to set a standard or anything, especially with society being as intolerant as it is.

[McC]

Your compartmentalizations, justifications, and personal value judgements mean precisely jack and shit in cultural and linguistic contexts.

Golly gosh gee, considering that justifications and personal value judgments on a large scale make up cultural standards, I think you're kinda wrong.

Usage of "gay" to describe something as weak or undesirable is inextricably linked to usage of "gay" meaning a homosexual, a weak and undesirable thing in a bigoted culture.

You've got a bunch of people in this thread more or less stating otherwise. Go crawl under a rock and have your pity-party there, where, in your isolation, you won't stand out looking like a complete idiot.

Reading your posts in this, who would have ever expected such a cookie-cutter defense of moronic bigotry.

You're applying bigotry to it where none necessarily exists. Basically, you're construing. It's just as bad as counter-racist black people, who now want to suppress the "white man" because of the crimes of the past. Fuckin' blow me and grow up. Word definitions change over time and if you want a world where people tip-toe through your garden of acceptability, you're going to spend your life disappointed. Deal with it. If you want to be personally offended when someone uses a word to denigrate a thing, be my guest. Don't try to tell me I can't use the word, though. You haven't the right.

[Surlethe]

Don't try to tell me I can't use the word, though. You haven't the right.

Beautiful strawman, McC; beautiful. You make Papa Surlethe proud.

[felineki]

Don't try to tell me I can't use the word, though. You haven't the right.

I know that, you're free to say whatever you want. Usage of the word "gay" in this manner just doesn't make sense to me, and that's why -I- choose not to use it that way. I wasn't trying to force anyone else to do the same.

[wolveraptor]

Definitions are directly based on the popular usage of the word. That's why there are dictionary definitions labeled "archaic" and such. Soon, using the word gay to mean homosexual may be archaic, and it will be considered synonymous with shitty or crappy. If people use the word as a synonym of shitty, it DOES make sense to use in such contexts as, "That movie was gay." It's still fun to tease people who use it that way, though. On these boards, I have time to think out my flames, so I tend not to use gay, especially since I could be debating someone who is gay. Saying to a gay man, "0MFG ur such @ h0m0!" is retarded on many levels.

[The Guid]

You've got a bunch of people in this thread more or less stating otherwise

Just tell me then, how do you think the word originated as an insult? Go on, then tell me its not inextricaably linked.

Go crawl under a rock and have your pity-party there, where, in your isolation, you won't stand out looking like a complete idiot.

"Pity" - where the fuck did this come from? I was talking about maybe trying to challenge a few elements of languaage - who says pity comes into it?

It's just as bad as counter-racist black people, who now want to suppress the "white man" because of the crimes of the past.

Sorry? What? Where the fuck did that come from? Give me one good reason why that is anything even remotely connected to this conversation.

Word definitions change over time and if you want a world where people tip-toe through your garden of acceptability, you're going to spend your life disappointed.

We spend our whole lives dissapointed, but the fact is one keeps trying to fight against bigotry and nonsense to make the world a better place. And why do you start acting as if I am trying to ban conkers when all I am suggesting is that perhaps an outdated, offensive and bollocks insult might be worth challenging on occcasion of hearing it - especially in supposedly enlightened circles.

Don't try to tell me I can't use the word, though. You haven't the right.

No - that's called freedom of speech. But I can think your a fucktard for talking like it though - I have that right. I also have the right to challenge you if I see it.

[wolveraptor]

You honestly think everyone who uses the word gay as a pejorative is bigoted? That's attack by association. Saying, "That's so gay" is almost never intended to be an anti-queer phrase. Saying, "Homosexuals will burn in hell" very clearly is.

They don't use the word as a descriptor for homosexuals. They use it as a descriptor for things that suck. Wasting time fighting against the use of it in any circumstance is idiotic.

[Pick]

I say it's not appropriate in the same way, "That movie was seriously nigger" would not be, either.

[Yi Li Su]

...you guys crack me up. Saying that applying the moniker "gay" to something that is viewed negatively results in veiled gay-bashing is retarded.

You can't deny that the connection is there in the mind by the mere use of the word.

in fact, getting revved up over language or words in general is fairly retarded

Sure, its only the way we communicate right?

Look, I'm using "retarded" to refer to something bad. Watch out, I might be insulting the 'mentally handicapped!' I should use some other word!

At least "retarded" has some basis in a lack of desire. I appreciate it is harmful to make that connection in the mind but I would not wish mental retardation on anyone yet if someone told me I had to make a few of my friends gay I have a feeling I'd very quickly dole it out. You know why? Because, there's nothing bad about it, nothing disadvantageous, not in and of itself. There may be societal problems involving prejudice but those are becoming less of a problem from year to year.

By saying you wouldn't want your friends to have a mental disability makes it some sort of horrible thing you're afflicted with. A disability is only one aspect of a person's personality and their being, it doesn't define them.

Yeah, you might want to use another word. It doesn't have anything to do with attacking other people. And the same goes for the usage of the word gay. By equating "retarded" with "stupid", you are inferring, whether you mean it or not, that my students are stupid. They're not. They don't need more reasons to feel different from their peers.

[The Guid]

I must admit I've never looked at it like that before. I guess I learn something new every day.

[Yi Li Su]

I suppose it's just sensitive for me. Those kids are my life so I am always looking out for them and making sure they don't feel anymore demeaned or ostracized than they already do, particularly for kids who have severe disabilities (which are usually the ones I work with). OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Darth Wong]

You honestly think everyone who uses the word gay as a pejorative is bigoted? That's attack by association. Saying, "That's so gay" is almost never intended to be an anti-queer phrase. Saying, "Homosexuals will burn in hell" very clearly is.

So if "white guy" was used as a synonym for "asshole", that shouldn't bother white guys because it's just language?

When you use the name of a group as an insult, it is implied that membership in the group is a bad thing. I don't see why this is not self-evident for some people.

[The Guid]

I suppose it's just sensitive for me. Those kids are my life so I am always looking out for them and making sure they don't feel anymore demeaned or ostracized than they already do, particularly for kids who have severe disabilities (which are usually the ones I work with). OK, I'll get off my soapbox now.

No, you make a good point. I apologise for my previous posting & will try and get rid of that nonsense as part of my language.

[wolveraptor]

Yeah, you might want to use another word. It doesn't have anything to do with attacking other people. And the same goes for the usage of the word gay. By equating "retarded" with "stupid", you are inferring, whether you mean it or not, that my students are stupid. They're not. They don't need more reasons to feel different from their peers

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference between the word "retarded" and "stupid"? Both indicate a lack of intellectual development, right? The only difference I can think of is that the former is also a medical term for those of a certain IQ level.

So if "white guy" was used as a synonym for "asshole", that shouldn't bother white guys because it's just language?

Hell, it already is used negatively. I feel that the intent of the language is more important than the correct meanings of the words. I always make fun of my friends for being sun-burned, easily-bruised whiteys. Am I now racist?
On the other hand, should I actively ostracize them and use the word white with evident malice, then yes, I would be racist. The problem is, one cannot always tell the intent if a quote is written and taken out of context. The situation and tone of voice are always important in deciphering meaning.

[Zero]

Wolve, the difference is that in that situation, you're joking. Many people will refer to someone as a fag, queer, or call something undesirable gay and have no humorous intent behind it. I'll call my friends any sort of racial slur, so long as we all have it well in our minds that we're kidding, but most of the time, this doesn't apply to use of the word "gay," or many of its affiliates.

[Yi Li Su]

Yeah, you might want to use another word. It doesn't have anything to do with attacking other people. And the same goes for the usage of the word gay. By equating "retarded" with "stupid", you are inferring, whether you mean it or not, that my students are stupid. They're not. They don't need more reasons to feel different from their peers

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference between the word "retarded" and "stupid"? Both indicate a lack of intellectual development, right? The only difference I can think of is that the former is also a medical term for those of a certain IQ level.

Because "retarded" is a medical term, it refers to a certain group of people. Using it in a derogatory way insults an entire group of people. Stupid is a general term. Someone with an IQ of 150 can be stupid, or act stupid. Retarded refers to someone in a certain IQ range, but has nothing to do with stupidity. People can have an IQ of 50, and be "retarded", but know the bus schedule for their town, work at a job, live on their own, make meals, etc. I wouldn't call that stupid.

[Yi Li Su]

Oh, and also, whether we like it or not, we live in a society where words matter, and that everything has implications and meanings.

[wolveraptor]

*snip*

So it is really only different in technical usage. Retarded in colloquial language means stupid, and the fact is, few people use retarded as in, "having an IQ range of X to Y"

Oh, and also, whether we like it or not, we live in a society where words matter, and that everything has implications and meanings.

The question wasn't about what society thought. It was about what was right, which can obviously differ from what society thinks. Because we live in such a society, politicans are forced to think about every god-damn word they utter in front of a camera, and thus come off as sneaky and not forthcoming.

Wolve, the difference is that in that situation, you're joking. Many people will refer to someone as a fag, queer, or call something undesirable gay and have no humorous intent behind it. I'll call my friends any sort of racial slur, so long as we all have it well in our minds that we're kidding, but most of the time, this doesn't apply to use of the word "gay," or many of its affiliates.

I'm also not being serious, just like your friends. They don't really think that that event or thing is homosexual, they just think it sucks. Like I said, it does have homophobic roots, but if you're going to whine and complain every time someone says it, you'll be a very frustrated, unhappy person. People hate having to over-think what they're saying, especially in a casual situation.

Furthermore, note the light-hearted context of the word gay. You use gay when something sucked, but didn't really destroy your life. If a serial killer had captured your mother and threatened to shove a hot poker through her eyes, you wouldn't say, "OMFG! Gay!"