Clacks in the ancient world

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2005-10-18 04:12pm

What if the Empires of antiquity, say, Rome or Greece, had the clacks network described in the discworld? A network of semaphore flags used for relaying messages.
IIRC, the (pre-Gilt) Grand Trunk could send a message about 2,000 miles in a day. Certainly it can send it several hundred miles.

Spice Runner · Post by **Spice Runner** » 2005-10-18 04:22pm

It certainly would have made Roman conquests a lot harder for the Romans as the nation being attacked have more time to prepare and gather their forces. Though I don't think that would stop the uber Roman legions. Diplomatic relations would be more interesting though with the ability to communicate with faraway nations within a day.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-10-18 04:35pm

It wouldn't have improved communications massively; Rome already used long-range communications in the form of birds of a specific colour for many things, released at a specified time. However, it would have gone a long way to civilizing beyond Italy, which may have improved the Empire's longevity.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2005-10-18 04:47pm

Rather than making the roman conquests harder, I'm thinking it would make the barbarian invasions harder... it takes a lot of political will to maintain a communications network that needs to be manned every few miles. This would favor empires over petty kingdoms with no individual need for such a thing. Nations need a communications within themselves a lot more than they need external communications, simply because much less control flows across the border.

As a side note, according to the Hornblower books, the French used such a system in the Napoleonic era. Whether this was historical or fanciful I don't care to speculate.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-10-18 05:03pm

FUCKING MIND READERS!

I was just thinking last night of a way to improve communications in my "Steampunk Roman Empire" setting, and was debating the efficiency of building semaphore networks along major trade routes...

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2005-10-18 05:09pm

But I do wonder how you could prevent people from Gilt-ing it. It would be all too easy for someone to gain control of the network and establish a monopoly.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-10-18 05:23pm

Easy, if its the Roman Empire, then the Empire runs it, probably an auxilia section of the military, so that teh towers are also guaranteed a degree of defense.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2005-10-18 05:33pm

drachefly wrote: As a side note, according to the Hornblower books, the French used such a system in the Napoleonic era. Whether this was historical or fanciful I don't care to speculate.

I thought the UK Admirality had a heliograph system as well during this era?

As a more general note, these systems aren't that easy to maintain (they cost money), so would only be an attribute for a larger or rich empire. Your barbarian tribes wouldn't use it, they'd destroy it.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2005-10-18 05:38pm

actually the romans did have that level of communication, a series of towers equiped with massive metal mirrors 'flashed' coded messages to each other. While not as sophisticated as morse code they could relay basic important military info. Historians estimate a message from the farthest point of Hadrian's wall could reach Rome itself in under 5 hours, faster at night.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2005-10-18 07:03pm

of course, with these systems, you run into the issue of bad weather. Your system is useless if one tower can't see to the next.

Assuming you built these though, I can see them becoming forts if they're along the border, and military posts if they're well within Imperial territory.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-10-18 07:15pm

We used to have a semaphore system here in Tasmania, with stations on most major hills and peaks. We're overcast with low clouds about 20% of the time, but it was still a far more reliable and a much faster system than sending a rider with the message.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2005-10-18 08:57pm

More idle musing... Wouldn't it be fairly easy to hijack such an outpost, then falsify a signal that would be sent through the entire system?

And I believe that China had a similar system, pre-Qin dynasty. I recall this childhood story (I'm not sure how historically accurate it is) where a King kept setting off false alarms because it amused his concubine... And when a neighboring state decided to invade, he rallied for troops, but got none, since nobody trusted him anymore.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2005-10-18 09:02pm

what, haven't you seen Mulan? Those torches in the first scene, a warning signal! The dialogue even supports it!

Also, how would they know what to send? And even if they did, how fast can you really take over a largish structure without them getting word out?

Perhaps an attack at night, with no moon, and fog. That would work.

So your messages need to have some sort of a password set up, maybe changed weekly or every few days.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-10-18 09:30pm

Jalinth wrote:
drachefly wrote: As a side note, according to the Hornblower books, the French used such a system in the Napoleonic era. Whether this was historical or fanciful I don't care to speculate.
I thought the UK Admirality had a heliograph system as well during this era?

As a more general note, these systems aren't that easy to maintain (they cost money), so would only be an attribute for a larger or rich empire. Your barbarian tribes wouldn't use it, they'd destroy it.

Both of them did have such systems, but they didn’t connect all that many points, nor did they spread outside the boundaries of France or Britain. A system spanning the width of the Roman Empire would be an incredible achievement, and also a quite expensive one as you noted.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2005-10-18 09:39pm

Ancient systems are going to be even more expensive and unreliable than the British and French ones as they will lack optics which makes such systems far more manageable.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-10-18 10:16pm

Semaphore systems are incredibly expensive, something like thirty or forty times the cost of electric telegraphs.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-10-18 10:34pm

Indeed, but until you have an electric telegraph that becomes a moot point.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-10-18 10:40pm

Indeed, but until you have an electric telegraph that becomes a moot point.

Well, duh.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2005-10-19 11:07am

Jalinth wrote:
drachefly wrote: As a side note, according to the Hornblower books, the French used such a system in the Napoleonic era. Whether this was historical or fanciful I don't care to speculate.
I thought the UK Admirality had a heliograph system as well during this era?

Aboard the ships? Yes, they did; but it was the land system I referred to

Jalinth wrote:As a more general note, these systems aren't that easy to maintain (they cost money), so would only be an attribute for a larger or rich empire. Your barbarian tribes wouldn't use it, they'd destroy it.

That is the exact point of the first half of my post, which you didn't quote.

Jalinth · Post by **Jalinth** » 2005-10-19 12:34pm

drachefly wrote:
Aboard the ships? Yes, they did; but it was the land system I referred to

Jalinth wrote:As a more general note, these systems aren't that easy to maintain (they cost money), so would only be an attribute for a larger or rich empire. Your barbarian tribes wouldn't use it, they'd destroy it.
That is the exact point of the first half of my post, which you didn't quote.

You referred to the French only, so I just added that the Admirality did have a land based system as well.

My second point was more general point addressing other posters not really referring to yours. But point taken.