Borg cube with commercial grade SW technology

[tempest]

You say their technology would cause a mess for SW (providing no evidence, just mumbling about the way Borg work in your head), and ignore all the reasons why they couldn't do jack or shit to the Empire, without being changed on such a fundamental level as to not be Borg at all.

I never ignored the reasons why they cant do jack shit to the Empire. I SAID "THEY CANT DO JACK SHIT TO THE EMPIRE UNLESS THEYRE CHANGED ON SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL THAT THEY ARENT BORG AT ALL".

Writting a stub on how the the underdog is gonna get whacked in a totally one sided fight is kinda retarded, so I figure out the minimum amount of adjustment required to have a fighting chance. IF YOU CAN SEE A SMALLER CHANGE TO THE BORG THAT WOULD GIVE THEM A POSSIBLE OPENING I'd love to hear it. I dare ya

[tempest]

Ummmm.... just because the holes are getting filled in with "soft as butter" filling doesnt mean that it wont be a bit disconcerting to behold in battle. well assuming that they dont leave a parkay trademark on the patches.

Nonsense. They'll just keep blasting until the cube is rendered inoperative. You honestly think they'll look at the Borg desperately trying to slowly fill in the gaping holes in their cube and say "omigod, what are we going to do?"

Nope, that's why I used the word "disconcerting" rather than "paralyzing".. They still get smoked, thats why it "nifty" rather than "effective".

[Darth Servo]

Ummmm.... just because the holes are getting filled in with "soft as butter" filling doesnt mean that it wont be a bit disconcerting to behold in battle. well assuming that they dont leave a parkay trademark on the patches.

Nonsense. They'll just keep blasting until the cube is rendered inoperative. You honestly think they'll look at the Borg desperately trying to slowly fill in the gaping holes in their cube and say "omigod, what are we going to do?"

Nope, that's why I used the word "disconcerting" rather than "paralyzing".. They still get smoked, thats why it "nifty" rather than "effective".

So in other words, your whole point was useless. The crew of the ISD or whatever will pause for a moment to see the cube beign repaired and then continue the bombardment? Oh wow, the cube gains a whole three seconds.

[Stark]

The Borg couldn't even assimilate DATA, for fucks sake.

That is of course, because Data is superior to anything anybody can ever manufacture. He has self-regenerating power cells, and is a perpetual motion machine. He has defied the laws of logic by travelling back in time and inserting his own head back on his torso. He is eternal, because no matter what happens there will always be a little Datalette ready to take his place when the original sacrifices himself in a blaze of glory. Oh yes, Data is the pinnacle of human evolution, we should be more like him and forget that he wants to be like us.

Dammit, I forgot. The Empire is doomed! ... or something...

I never ignored the reasons why they cant do jack shit to the Empire. I SAID "THEY CANT DO JACK SHIT TO THE EMPIRE UNLESS THEYRE CHANGED ON SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL THAT THEY ARENT BORG AT ALL".

Writting a stub on how the the underdog is gonna get whacked in a totally one sided fight is kinda retarded, so I figure out the minimum amount of adjustment required to have a fighting chance. IF YOU CAN SEE A SMALLER CHANGE TO THE BORG THAT WOULD GIVE THEM A POSSIBLE OPENING I'd love to hear it. I dare ya

The Borg *don't* have a chance. They go down like a Taiwanese hooker. I am forced to point out that you did in fact say, and I quote

their technology would cause a mess for SW

and have failed to back this up. Their technology would NOT cause a 'mess' for SW, unless you mean 'huge clouds of cube-debris'.

To be honest, I'm not sure why you chose the Borg for your pie-in-the-sky post. With a similiar (ie total) amount of change, the Klingons, the Cardies, hell the TRIBBLES would 'cause a mess for SW'. It doesn't prove anything to say 'x with superguns and superstealth and supertactics would be good'. No shit, sherlock.

[Edward Yee]

Well, Darth Wong, the newbie crewmen might. Fortunately, fire control at last check wasn't in amateur crewmen's hands.

[Wyrm]

N00b Gunner: "Oh, Sweet Baby Goddess! That cube thing is regenerating!"

Senior Gunner: "Lemme see... Hmm... Okay, so they can regenerate. Cute. We'll just blast away at them a few more times, and that'll destroy 'em."

N00b Gunner: "Weregonnadie!Weregonnadie!Weregonnadie!Weregonnadie!"

Senior Gunner: "Oh, bood grief..."

*BLAM*

(N00b Gunner falls dead.)

DEAD N00B GUNNER: X

Senior Gunner: "We got no use for guys who can't grow a pair."

[Darth Wong]

Well, Darth Wong, the newbie crewmen might. Fortunately, fire control at last check wasn't in amateur crewmen's hands.

Given the slow speed of regeneration, even the most pitiful n00b wouldn't panic over it. And it doesn't take a lot of knowledge or experience to think of the innovative "hit 'em again" tactic.

[Darth Servo]

Didn't the cube in Q-who just SIT there for who knows how long after the E-D blew away its tractor beam? The E-D crew held there little brainstorming session and beamed over and checked out the cube for several minutes, discovering the borg nursery, etc BEFORE they noticed the cube was repairing itself.

When facing the ISD, the cube will be atoms long before any regeneration is even noticable.

[tempest]

I never ignored the reasons why they cant do jack shit to the Empire. I SAID "THEY CANT DO JACK SHIT TO THE EMPIRE UNLESS THEYRE CHANGED ON SUCH A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL THAT THEY ARENT BORG AT ALL".

Writting a stub on how the the underdog is gonna get whacked in a totally one sided fight is kinda retarded, so I figure out the minimum amount of adjustment required to have a fighting chance. IF YOU CAN SEE A SMALLER CHANGE TO THE BORG THAT WOULD GIVE THEM A POSSIBLE OPENING I'd love to hear it. I dare ya

The Borg *don't* have a chance. They go down like a Taiwanese hooker. I am forced to point out that you did in fact say, and I quote

their technology would cause a mess for SW

and have failed to back this up. Their technology would NOT cause a 'mess' for SW, unless you mean 'huge clouds of cube-debris'.

To be honest, I'm not sure why you chose the Borg for your pie-in-the-sky post. With a similiar (ie total) amount of change, the Klingons, the Cardies, hell the TRIBBLES would 'cause a mess for SW'. It doesn't prove anything to say 'x with superguns and superstealth and supertactics would be good'. No shit, sherlock.

Ok, maybe it's time to dumb down the comparison a bunch. It's like a bunch of rednecks with automatic silenced sniper rifles going up against the US military. If these guys decided to go try and take out an airbase, they dont have a chance, either good old regular soldiers are going to shoot them, or just have them bombed, or artillary striken, or just plain ran over with a tank.
It's not that their technology is bad, it just isnt usefull for a straight on assault of a superior power. And using that technology in that way is straight on dumb.
Having a few hundred automatic silenced sniper rifles fall in to Al-Qaedea's hands would cause a mess. But it doesn't mean that they're going to sink an aircraft carrier with them. But your arguments keep coming back to those kind of retarded matchups.

[Darth Servo]

It's not that their technology is bad,

Compared to SW it is.

it just isnt usefull for a straight on assault of a superior power. And using that technology in that way is straight on dumb.

So how WOULD they use it?

Having a few hundred automatic silenced sniper rifles fall in to Al-Qaedea's hands would cause a mess. But it doesn't mean that they're going to sink an aircraft carrier with them. But your arguments keep coming back to those kind of retarded matchups.

Ah, I see. By 'mess' you meant 'minor disturbance for the local police forces'.

[Noble Ire]

Ok, maybe it's time to dumb down the comparison a bunch. It's like a bunch of rednecks with automatic silenced sniper rifles going up against the US military. If these guys decided to go try and take out an airbase, they dont have a chance, either good old regular soldiers are going to shoot them, or just have them bombed, or artillary striken, or just plain ran over with a tank.
It's not that their technology is bad, it just isnt usefull for a straight on assault of a superior power. And using that technology in that way is straight on dumb.
Having a few hundred automatic silenced sniper rifles fall in to Al-Qaedea's hands would cause a mess. But it doesn't mean that they're going to sink an aircraft carrier with them. But your arguments keep coming back to those kind of retarded matchups.

Was that even a rebuttal?
The point is that Borg tech is not equivelent to SW tech in anyway, and none of it would be particularly useful to the Empire, save possibly for transporters (and the Borg wouldn't be able to use them in combat to defend themselves, both due to the hull consistency and the shield strength of SW vessels. Your rednecks would be armed with poorly made bow and arrows with rubber tips, not sniper rifles.

[tempest]

Nonsense. They'll just keep blasting until the cube is rendered inoperative. You honestly think they'll look at the Borg desperately trying to slowly fill in the gaping holes in their cube and say "omigod, what are we going to do?"

Nope, that's why I used the word "disconcerting" rather than "paralyzing".. They still get smoked, thats why it "nifty" rather than "effective".

So in other words, your whole point was useless. The crew of the ISD or whatever will pause for a moment to see the cube beign repaired and then continue the bombardment? Oh wow, the cube gains a whole three seconds. :roll:

Well a tactician might try the whole cut and run, head for an asteroid field. Asteroids appear to be a threat to star-wars ships. Of course the borg dont use tactics, so no point here either. move along.

[Darth Servo]

Well a tactician might try the whole cut and run, head for an asteroid field. Asteroids appear to be a threat to star-wars ships.

Only when their shields are down and then, only to the bridge tower.

[tempest]

Ok, maybe it's time to dumb down the comparison a bunch. It's like a bunch of rednecks with automatic silenced sniper rifles going up against the US military. If these guys decided to go try and take out an airbase, they dont have a chance, either good old regular soldiers are going to shoot them, or just have them bombed, or artillary striken, or just plain ran over with a tank.
It's not that their technology is bad, it just isnt usefull for a straight on assault of a superior power. And using that technology in that way is straight on dumb.
Having a few hundred automatic silenced sniper rifles fall in to Al-Qaedea's hands would cause a mess. But it doesn't mean that they're going to sink an aircraft carrier with them. But your arguments keep coming back to those kind of retarded matchups.

Was that even a rebuttal?
The point is that Borg tech is not equivelent to SW tech in anyway, and none of it would be particularly useful to the Empire, save possibly for transporters (and the Borg wouldn't be able to use them in combat to defend themselves, both due to the hull consistency and the shield strength of SW vessels. Your rednecks would be armed with poorly made bow and arrows with rubber tips, not sniper rifles.

I've been trying to seperate the rednecks from the rifles, because redneck getting slaughtered is a dull conversation. But explaining how the rifles could mix things up simply gets the response that they cant do squat if they try to outgun a battleship. And while I totally agree that there is no comparison at all, that doesnt make it worthless. Just not suited for the purpose that everyone is trying to cubby-hole it into.

I am trying to get across that there are some things that good tech cant do regardless. Assuming that the silenced automatic sniper rifles, are the equivilent of their Transport, Telepathy, Assimilation technologies. You cant fight a frontal war with those types of weapons. You dont fly around in a borg cube and try to blast an ISD, anymore than you try and take a battleship out dingy and a machine gun. Even if you didnt get caught, you could fire till your guns melted, and they might not notice.

However in asymetric combat these little items come in handy. Kidnapping officials via transporter, interrogation via assimilation, beaming your crew to a military complex at the right time so they can set expolsives. Beaming your crew out so that they dont get caught. Then sneak (no cube travel) to another system as you build up your forces. Heck you've assimilated 1 officer minimum.

Or with the silenced auto sniper rifle, you can nail guards before they sound an alarm, and without the sound of gunfire.

It a matter of using the right tool for the right job, you dont use borg technology for a firefight against SW ships, you use the things that they dont know exist to apply suprise. If you use it judiciously it can be incredible, If you make it your bread and butter, then it just gets accounted for and you lose the advantage.

[tempest]

Well a tactician might try the whole cut and run, head for an asteroid field. Asteroids appear to be a threat to star-wars ships.

Only when their shields are down and then, only to the bridge tower.

Dude Asteroids are WAY more effective than trek weapons.

Admiral Piett was willing to tell Vader they couldn't risk entering the asteroid field. I dont think that he would whine if it was just going to be hard on the shields.

Star Destroyers were taking heavy damage from the asteroids. Either they (ship captains) were lying in ESB to Vader, or were too incompetent to raise shields. The comment that the Tantive would be falsely reported as destroyed by asteroids seems to illustrate that asteroids are a credible threat.

[Noble Ire]

Dude Asteroids are WAY more effective than trek weapons.

Admiral Piett was willing to tell Vader they couldn't risk entering the asteroid field. I dont think that he would whine if it was just going to be hard on the shields.

Star Destroyers were taking heavy damage from the asteroids. Either they (ship captains) were lying in ESB to Vader, or were too incompetent to raise shields. The comment that the Tantive would be falsely reported as destroyed by asteroids seems to illustrate that asteroids are a credible threat.

The Tantive was a civilian corvette, barely more heavily armed than an Imperial Gunship. It's shield rating and that of an Imperial-class would be quite significant. Asteroids are a threat to ISDs, but only in very large numbers, or if shields are weakened (I suppose it would all depend upon the density and activity of the field in question, and how distracted the ISD was.)

[Patrick Degan]

However in asymetric combat these little items come in handy. Kidnapping officials via transporter, interrogation via assimilation, beaming your crew to a military complex at the right time so they can set expolsives. Beaming your crew out so that they dont get caught. Then sneak (no cube travel) to another system as you build up your forces. Heck you've assimilated 1 officer minimum.

Assimilating one officer, or the odd stormtrooper or two, every once in a while isn't going to give the Borg the body of knowledge they would require to duplicate a technology many thousands of years ahead of their scientific base, or the full tactical knowledge of the Empire. Nor would these petty terrorist tactics make even a noticeable impact on Imperial society or the organisation of its military structure. Enough incidents, and Imperials will know somebody is operating inside their territory against Imperial interests. They will detect common patterns in the attacks, no matter how much you believe the Borg will be able to pull "the unexpected" for each attack.

Nevermind the fact that the Borg aren't known for subtlety or tactical creativity, and tend to stick to the same methods over and over and over again.

[tempest]

However in asymetric combat these little items come in handy. Kidnapping officials via transporter, interrogation via assimilation, beaming your crew to a military complex at the right time so they can set expolsives. Beaming your crew out so that they dont get caught. Then sneak (no cube travel) to another system as you build up your forces. Heck you've assimilated 1 officer minimum.

Assimilating one officer, or the odd stormtrooper or two, every once in a while isn't going to give the Borg the body of knowledge they would require to duplicate a technology many thousands of years ahead of their scientific base, or the full tactical knowledge of the Empire. Nor would these petty terrorist tactics make even a noticeable impact on Imperial society or the organisation of its military structure. Enough incidents, and Imperials will know somebody is operating inside their territory against Imperial interests. They will detect common patterns in the attacks, no matter how much you believe the Borg will be able to pull "the unexpected" for each attack.

Nevermind the fact that the Borg aren't known for subtlety or tactical creativity, and tend to stick to the same methods over and over and over again.

ok,
1. Its about using their tech, not using borg-psychology.
2. Noticible impact issues agreed, even trashing a dozen planets wouldnt make a noticible impact on imperial society.
3. You dont need to duplicate technology that can be plundered.
4. As far as unexpected attacks go, theyre not going to nail each one, thats a matter of equalibrium. How much will the Empire invest to wipe the problem out vs how devious the opponents can be. How quickly the damage can be reversed if some members are captured.

[Patrick Degan]

However in asymetric combat these little items come in handy. Kidnapping officials via transporter, interrogation via assimilation, beaming your crew to a military complex at the right time so they can set expolsives. Beaming your crew out so that they dont get caught. Then sneak (no cube travel) to another system as you build up your forces. Heck you've assimilated 1 officer minimum.

Assimilating one officer, or the odd stormtrooper or two, every once in a while isn't going to give the Borg the body of knowledge they would require to duplicate a technology many thousands of years ahead of their scientific base, or the full tactical knowledge of the Empire. Nor would these petty terrorist tactics make even a noticeable impact on Imperial society or the organisation of its military structure. Enough incidents, and Imperials will know somebody is operating inside their territory against Imperial interests. They will detect common patterns in the attacks, no matter how much you believe the Borg will be able to pull "the unexpected" for each attack.

Nevermind the fact that the Borg aren't known for subtlety or tactical creativity, and tend to stick to the same methods over and over and over again.

ok,
Its about using their tech, not using borg-psychology.

To make pinprick attacks which in the overall balance achieves nothing?

You dont need to duplicate technology that can be plundered.

You do if the object of the exercise is conquest. Grabbing a few weapons where possible doesn't alter a military balance. It doesn't even get you enough to fight one battle.

As far as unexpected attacks go, theyre not going to nail each one, thats a matter of equalibrium. How much will the Empire invest to wipe the problem out vs how devious the opponents can be. How quickly the damage can be reversed if some members are captured.

You forget that the Empire already invested considerably greater resources to eliminate the far larger problem of the Rebel Alliance. Threats to state security are not tolerated in systems such as the Empire, they are hunted down. Furthermore, I am constrained to point out again that deviousness is not a Borg characteristic; they are methodical and plodding, not innovative. The sort of warfare you keep describing requires a level of tactical creativity which has never been observed in Borg operations in any instance.

[Stark]

Deagan, you're wasting your time. What the Borg ACTUALLY are is irrelevant to him, since he's solely talking about his pie-in-the-sky magic-Borg that exist in his head. His whole argument is 'using Borg technology a sensible force could conduct a series of terrorist attacks on Imperial holdings'. That's stupid in itself, but he's just going to keep ignoring rebuttals and keep restating his argument unchanged.

To be honest, he seems to think capturing important Imperials is easy. One wonders why the Rebels didn't try such a decapitation strategy, if their ships and bases are so poorly defended that the fucking BORG can waltz in and surrupticously embrace - I mean assimilate - Imperials without breaking the masquerade - I mean alerting anyone.

[Edward Yee]

What the Borg ACTUALLY are is irrelevant to him, since he's solely talking about his pie-in-the-sky magic-Borg that exist in his head.

Hey, I do that too. Just not with the Borg, and not with "who'd win a slug-out." Fair is fair? (Referring to some of the "reboot" ideas going around in my head.)

One wonders why the Rebels didn't try such a decapitation strategy, if their ships and bases are so poorly defended that the fucking BORG can waltz in and surrupticously embrace - I mean assimilate - Imperials without breaking the masquerade - I mean alerting anyone.

re: why this might be thought -- because the Federation Starfleet* set such a low bar? (Yeah, just plain Starfleet-bashing.)

Though, now that I think about it, according to EU canon (the only kind where it's shown) Palpatine was more than once subject to internal coup d'etat attempts; for example, once by Imperial Center Oversector moffs (Kadir, Grand Moff Trachta and Grand Moff Bartam) and another time by Grand Admiral Demetrius Zaarin.

* Since the Imps have their own Imperial Starfleet

[Darth Servo]

Star Destroyers were taking heavy damage from the asteroids. Either they (ship captains) were lying in ESB to Vader, or were too incompetent to raise shields. The comment that the Tantive would be falsely reported as destroyed by asteroids seems to illustrate that asteroids are a credible threat.

OR, they knew they'd be searching for DAYS and the ships would need to endure thousands of impacts.

[RedImperator]

As far as the Borg learning SW technology by assimilation goes, if we were generous and said they managed to successfully raid a major university and grabbed enough engineers, scientists, and industrial historians, they might be able to bootstrap themselves up to the Empire's level in a much shorter timeframe than they could have otherwise, by starting with the predacessor technologies they CAN build at their own level of development. The process would still take, at the very least, multiple centuries, though.

[Big Phil]

Tempest, shut up - your argument was destroyed two dozen posts ago, and now you're just wasting everybody's time. Just accept defeat and learn from it, and the next time you decide to post maybe you'll be better able to defend your position.

[Big Phil]

Holy shit! I didn't notice the date whatsoever. My bad - trying to give the guy some advice and boy if I didn't make myself look stupid in the process.