Meatgrinder Jedi Academy Server Returns (after downtime)

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Kurgan
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Meatgrinder Jedi Academy Server Returns (after downtime)

Post by Kurgan »

Well, the JA server with no-hold's barred action in Siege, CTF, Jedi Master, TFFA, and Holocron FFA action is back, with a new IP. Kill or be killed!

After the server changeover we had some downtime and instances of crashing but it should be all stable now and faster than before.

Feel free to join, and check out the status here (207.210.215.233:29070).


PS: I've got many Episode III (and other star wars) skins installed, so feel free to use them here. ;)

PPS: OJP Mod is not required to join, but highly recommended, grab it here!
Last edited by Kurgan on 2005-10-23 09:45pm, edited 2 times in total.
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Have you ever thought of making the server a JA+?

I just downloaded that mod and it is very awsome.
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hooo boy, you asked the big question!

Post by Kurgan »

Anarchist Bunny wrote:Have you ever thought of making the server a JA+?

I just downloaded that mod and it is very awsome.
Short answer:
No, because OJP is superior, especially for our purposes.

Long answer:
I avoided doing so because frankly JA+ sucked horribly up until very recently.

That mod (JA+) was aimed squarely at "h0n0rz d00dz"... the guys who insist that the ONLY way to play is to stand in front of your opponent with your saber turned off, then BOW (in "respect") and then slowly have a saber fight, with no force powers, and no special moves of any kind.

Then after the fight you have to bow again, and the next person in line fights... and this is all during A FREE FOR ALL!

The rest of the time people spend "walking" around, chatting, and using "emotes" (the dozens of extra taunts like kissing, sleeping, hugging, waving, meditating, etc) that were ripped from Single Player, and give you partial protection from attacks (unlike the REAL taunts in the game which leave you vulnerable). These guys were extremely intolerant of the "normal" type of gameplay (ie: playing this game like any other FPS). They would use any means at their disposal to stop "lamers" (as they called non-honorz players), including mob rule (abusing vote-kick) and whining to the admin.

It turns into a virtual IRC with the occasional saber duel. On such servers they are extremely anal about "chat killing" (if a person is chatting, and you kill them, you're instantly punished/banned) and "saber down kills" (Ie: if a person turns their saber off and you kill them, bad joojoo!). Plus they also are against "laming" (any type of kill that the admin or anyone doesn't like, including when a person "isn't ready."

Mods like JA+ favored "punishments" instead of simple kick and ban. Meaning you could tap a button to make the person unable to move, speak or defend themselves. You could press another button to make their character fly across the room and land on their back, taking damage. Another button could make them explode, instantly getting a self kill.

Such mods encouraged admins (and their subadmin friends) to "cheat" whever the mood struck them, and for them to abuse players with the "punishment" commands. It became a popularity contest, of who could kiss the most a$$, and discouraged combat altogether (somebody beat you? no problem, just punish them!). Admin mods tried to one-up each other with ridiculous commands (mostly ripped off from each other in JK2, copied over into JA). It all went back to mods like Vulcanus in the previous game. They were stupid, and sadly popular with the honorz/whiner crowd.

Basically mods like this RUINED the game(s). They took over in Jedi Outcast, and have since taken over in Jedi Academy.

Thankfully though a few of us have bucked the trend and gone back to the "pure" gameplay of the original. OJP doesn't mess with the game, it merely fixes bugs and adds features that are in the spirit of what the developers intended. No grapple hooks, no super saber combos from single player, no dancing emotes, no punishments.


Now, in the last couple of versions, slider, the author of JA+ (the most popular of the "admin mods" that caused so much chaos in the JK2/JA communities) has toned his mod down considerably. He even has a "highlander" game mode that sounds interesting (basically you have limited lives, and when you kill somebody.. unfortunately not with a head shot, you acquire their powers, and you all have very limited force at the start, plus there's a "quickening" animation when you win).

He's made it so that you can't really abuse people anymore with his mod like you could in the past. Most of the abusive commands are removed (following a trend of some other admin mods, like JA Reloaded, it's a shame it took slider this long, but he finally saw the light, that these commands just ruin the game). The ones that remain don't do any damage and there's a massive buffer delay on them that prevents you using them to punish people. In fact, that part may itself even be removed, so you can't use them at all (if you could freeze somebody, they were invincible).

The best thing is that he put in an "honor dimension." This means there are two "alternate dimensions" on a FFA server. So the default, normal way you play is the standard kill everything that moves using whatever you've got mode. If the admin wishes, he can "send somebody" to the Honorz dimension, wherein they have all these rules (see above). If they disobey the rules, the "punishment" is just to send them back to the "normal" dimension. Neither dimension can interfere with the other.

So essentially now JA+ is non-abusive, which is great!

The rest of the mod however, is rather unbalancing. Why would I suddenly want to be able to use all those Single Player moves, like having absorb and protection on at the same time? Uh... can you say "overpowered"?

Or how about the useless ability to "grab" somebody and hug them with drain? Oh sure, it might look fancy, but in a game with more than 2 people, it'd be a cinch to just go up and hack/blast them both. I guess if you prefer to hug people in a game... ;)

All those single player animations he added really have no place in the larger game, they're either eye candy, or unbalancing.

So while JediMoves heavily promotes JA+ and several server providers include it "for free" I honestly have no reason to host it on my server.

Why? Because I'm concerned with modes like Jedi Master and Holocron FFA, which are not included in JA+. Likewise OJP improves modes like Siege and CTF with enhanced AI and exploit fixes, that OJP doesn't cover.

JA+ is essentially a mod for those who like to duel, that's about all its good for, in the end, despite the improvements. So while it's no longer a "bad mod" (from the standpoint of abuse) it's not one I prefer to use anyway.

So if you want a JA+ server, feel free to join any of the other 255 servers that are running it (I would recommend the "official" server or "mandrake" in terms of quality of the mod, nothing below version 2.3).

At Meatgrinder, we don't care about this "honor" BS. We don't focus on dueling (you can do it if you want to, but you won't get any hand holding from the admins if you screw up). We don't recognize whining as a legitimate combat tactic. We have no "honor dimension" simply because such gameplay isn't encouraged on our server, period. If you're not here to score and frag, go into spectator mode, where you belong. ;)

On Meatgrinder, if you chat, and you get killed, or your saber is off when you die, or somebody "spams" you with the same move that you can't defeat or shoots you in the back while you're dueling TOUGH WOOKIEE DROPPINGS KID! ;) The saber challenge option is there for a reason, we even upped it to max 2 duels at once. But everybody else take sole responsiblity for their deaths/suicides in the game. Don't like it, don't join...

Here you can play the game as it was meant to be played, kill your enemies to your heart's content, without fear of being punished or banned for it. That and we even crack down on killtracker spammers (those annoying people who spam the chat with those programs that go "I have killed you 234325464365435 times, noob" every time they get a kill, regardless of the game mode) with warnings, then kicks if they don't put it silent.

In any case, if you join Meatgrinder it won't kill you (much!) to learn something new. You might like it. ;)
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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don't let that stop you!

Post by Kurgan »

And with that I just scared away all the "h0n0rz d00dz"!

Look, the long and the short of it is this: on the server we play to have fun, and competition is encouraged.

If you get upset playing a video game and want to hurt somebody because they shot you while you were distracted, this is NOT a good place for you. But if you like kicking back, and playing some hardcore jedi or mercenary action in JA, you'll have lots of fun.

A lot of us have gotten sick of being banned from servers just for beating up the admin or not playing according to somebody's "honor code" so to us this is gamer heaven. ;)
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Post by darthdavid »

If I ever get back to that game I'll have to get on your sever some more. The honor code was one of the big reasons why I stopped playing. I don't midn deuling, But I don't need it all the fucking time and that's what it's become.
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Post by Kurgan »

You'll always be welcome here. We don't let the honorz d00dz get their way here. ;)

Btw, I put up a downloads page of useful mods on my site (optional of course):

http://strategy.jediknight.net/jka/downloads.shtml

I saw Anarchist Bunny on the sever, but he disconnected as soon as I said hi to him. ;)
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Post by Captain tycho »

Now that I finally have JA, I'll have to drop by some time. :D
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Post by Stark »

I didn't believe this whole 'honorz d00dz' thing until I saw a guy posting on the OJP forums - demanding they implement 'anti-laming' measures. He claims JA isn't competitive, it's 'enthusiast'. Ugh. Someone tell these people it's a shooter, and if they want to chat there's plenty of 'lamer-free' ways to do it. Oh noes, Kurgan killed me with my chat window up! Someone push/freeze/ban him, the big meany! :roll:

OJP looks quite cool - it seems to break single player a bit, but it fixes a lot of the problems that made me stop playing JA back in the day. If I can get my sabre swinging above 'feather duster' level, maybe you'll see me on your server... :)
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Post by YT300000 »

The funny thing is, when I played JA a lot, I was almost entirely on your server. It going down was actually a major factor in me leaving that game.
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Post by InnocentBystander »

Wait, you are telling me there is a mod for JA where you walk around and don't fight?
Sorry, but What The Fuck? :shock:
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Re: don't let that stop you!

Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Kurgan wrote:And with that I just scared away all the "h0n0rz d00dz"!

Look, the long and the short of it is this: on the server we play to have fun, and competition is encouraged.

If you get upset playing a video game and want to hurt somebody because they shot you while you were distracted, this is NOT a good place for you. But if you like kicking back, and playing some hardcore jedi or mercenary action in JA, you'll have lots of fun.

A lot of us have gotten sick of being banned from servers just for beating up the admin or not playing according to somebody's "honor code" so to us this is gamer heaven. ;)
If its the time I'm thinking of I joined and suffered horrible lag and rebooted, but I joined just a few minutes later.
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Post by Kurgan »

Pretty much, yeah. Well technically you can fight, but unless you pre-arrange this very restricted "duel" with one person (after waiting your turn) you get punished!

Basically these are folks who started off taking the Saber Challenge, which Raven had put into this game as a BONUS FEATURE for those rare times when you just want to challenge somebody to a saber fight after the stalemate (or the top guy whom nobody seem to be able to beat, whatever) or fight your buddy who has to leave soon rather than lose him in the crowd, etc..... they take this bonus feature and say IT IS THE WHOLE GAME. But they get mad when people "interrupt" their duel (even though you can't harm the people who are in the private duel and they can't hurt you, you can still "get in the way" if you want to). They also want to be untouchable when not in the duel.

On another tangent, I hear that it was Raven Software's previous claim to fame (the one that got LucasArts's attention for the contract for the JK sequels), Heretic II, that started the whole private dueling thing. Apparently a majorly popular thing for people to do in the MP mode of that underrated game was to have "staff duels." They made up honor codes to govern how it was done, etc. This took over the game and many feel it ruined it. I think that some of the people who started the honor code in Jedi Outcast may have been from that Heretic II community originally. Raven put the saber challenge feature in to facilitate the private dueling exerience without ruining it for everyone else, and making it clear that this was a peripheral way to play, not the main method. But people are thick, it seems...

The base game only allows one private duel at a time. Most of these "Honorz" friendly mods put in the ability to have lots of duels at once. So if you join one of these theoretically you'd see lots of blue guys running around sabering each other.

I can see the value in that, in that while it would be more laggy, it would involve considerably less "waiting in line" than a Duel server, wherein there is NO CHANCE of interferance (those not fighting are all spectating), but only two (or 3, via power duel) can fight at once. Still, the honorz duelers defeat this single benefit by forcing people to wait in line anyway.

The honorz mentality is anti-competative to the core. It benefits those who "aren't ready" most of the time. Aren't ready?? Then why did you join an FPS server? Can't you configure your controls, scratch your butt, and pick your nose in spectator mode? Oh no, you died! Guess you can't do your business while your character's body lies on the ground and nobody can do further damage to you... you have to respawn and start whining for punishment to happen to the attacker! Yeesh. ;P

So the honorz players, afraid of losing, insist that you can't use force powers (except maybe jump) because they are "lame." You can't use guns or explosives because they are "lame." You can't use power moves like the katas because they're lame. You can't use any instant kill moves, or "spam" (use the same move more than once? win the same way twice? whatever) because it's "lame." Then they throw in bowing and stuff to force you to be "ready" before you can play.

The player decides basically when, where, and how he is allowed to be killed by other players, so yes, it's completely anti-competative. To some people this constitutes "fun" though it is a complete corruption of JA and the entire FPS ethos!

Sadly I've seen the honorz mentality take over in JK2 and JA. The "proof" is merely in the experience of playing hardcore on many public servers and ending up votekicked, banned, or punished (slapped, slept, slayed, exploded, etc), usually after a torrent of whines and profanity from these guys. That and over half the servers use these "anti-laming" mods which encourage such behavior.

These guys used to use the argument that it was "more Jedi-like" to play this way. Many of us have debated them and proven that there is nothing Jedi-like in their mob behavior, and the movie Jedi would all be slapped and kickbanned, if they were able to join these servers. Despite this, these guys use all sorts of rationalizations, such as that playing the game normally "isn't fun" or "is boring," that honorz fighting "makes you more friends" and "takes more skill" (?!) or even try to compare it to real life martial arts like Kendo, or Fencing. Their WOI is incredibly thick, let me tell ya!

We use OJP because it includes some needed improvements and more options without compromising the original gameplay and without accepting these "anti-laming" measures that skew the game in favor of the honorz d00dz. JA+ Mod just recently stopped being abusive (see version 2.3 and 2.4), but sadly a lot of servers continue to use the crappy old versions.

Anyway, I'm touched by the folks who enjoyed my server in the past, and I apologize if its going down left you out in the cold. Let me invite you back for more fun. Relive the good ol' days. ;)

Consider us an alternative to the crap you get on most servers, even if in reality we are just playing the game "normally."
Last edited by Kurgan on 2005-10-23 09:36pm, edited 2 times in total.
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Re: don't let that stop you!

Post by Kurgan »

Anarchist Bunny wrote: If its the time I'm thinking of I joined and suffered horrible lag and rebooted, but I joined just a few minutes later.
Oh ok. Sorry to hear that! I thought perhaps I scared you off. ;)

I do that to people sometimes! They play and then as soon as I talk to them they run away. Must be my breath...
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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Post by InnocentBystander »

My big problem with JA games was that servers were always all or nothing. I like force powers, but max powers is just way too much for me to keep track of, I could never find servers which had a reasonable amount of force powers, weapons, and sabers. I've played such a setup only a few times, they were great, and everything else just isn't as good.
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Post by Kurgan »

To be honest, a lot of us started off with No Force. Then we went to Neutral or pre-set force powers, and went on from there.

The thing is, once you learned everything you wanted more, until you'd learned all the abilities in the game.

Now I'm not saying I'm the #1 JA player in the world (far from it, I know quite a few people on my server that can beat my ass easily), but you get the idea.

The JK series has a high learning curve.

I think you'd like Siege then, because for the most part you are only given a few force powers or a few items and weapons to use for your class. It's actually quite a good way to learn the game (even though many would see it the other way around... you learn everything first, THEN play Siege with what you've learned).

In Mysteries of the Sith I found the classes an excellent training tool for the same reason. Learn how to survive with a certain set of abilities, then branch out.

So I wouldn't be intimidated by it, but maybe save playing Jedi Master until you are... well, a Jedi Master. ;)

Holocron could be similarly intimidating, unless you're lucky enough to get the cubes of the powers you're good at.

I figure by allowing all powers and weapons, you allow people to develop their playing styles, rather than forcing them to just use one style (as the sabers only, no force servers tend to do).

One thing I insist upon though is that we use default Force Regeneration. That's forceregentime 200. This is the default that Raven (tried to at least) balance the game with. A lot of servers set it to 0, which means that your force regenerates completely in like 5 seconds. This leads to massive spamming of saber moves and certain powers. It essentially makes the Dark Side overpowered as you can spam lightning and drain all day long. You can push people around, pull away all their weapons, etc. And oddly enough spamming is one of the top whiner complaints!

The reason this is so widespread is that mods like JA+ for the longest time set Forceregentime as 0 in their "sample" cfg file. Since this was the default, and most admins are lazy, they all used it. Many in fact complained in the early days (which is probably why he chose 0) because they didn't want to wait for their force to regen. They'd spam powers, run out of force, and then cry about it.

I admit that for testing purposes, having your force all regenerate in 5 seconds is handy... it makes mountain climbing a lot easier. But in combat? That's like having infinite ammo! It's very silly and unbalancing. Now certain parts of the game use faster force regen, like two of the Jedi classes on Siege Korriban (the Dark Jedi Heavy Weapons and the Light Jedi Tech), and the Jedi Master in the JM mode, or someone who grabs a Force Boon in FFA/TFFA. But those elements are ruined by forceregentime 0 when EVERYONE has the ability to regenerate that fast (though apparently the Force Boon still boosts your mana in this mode, so that it all comes back in 1 second, instead of 5!).

Anyway, suffice to say that bad settings ruin a lot of servers.

Another thing we use is SaberDamagescale 2. This means saber blades do 2x the normal damage. Let me explain a little history before anyone freaks out...

When Jedi Outcast was released, in multiplayer the sabers were DEADLY. This was done on purpose. See, in MP you have ranged weapons, and despite the fact that the saber can block a lot of them and you can push away certain projectiles reasonably well, guns are still major advantage against sabers. Why? Because running up to people and slashing them is a SLOW way to get points. In MP you usually win by killing the most people/destroying the most stuff. You can do that way faster with guns than with sabers, and you don't need to be so close to your target to do so. So they have to give the saber some advantage to make up for that imbalance.

Thus the sabers do mega damage. One or two solid hits and your target dies unless something extraordinary is going on like they have shields or Force Protect on. And incidentally, Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith also adopted this philosophy (well, technically you had two swings, one did light to medium damage, the other did heavy damage, capable of killing in one hit).

In Single Player by default the sabers did light damage, unless you used a cvar to change that for "movie realism" but anyway, that's irrelevant to MP.

Then the whining began. The whiners raised a HUGE fuss with Raven Software over the deadly sabers. They complained because they wanted to have "duels" (in the duel game mode or during saber challenges in FFA... remember the "honorz" faction? they were starting up around this time). These guys had played the single player game with its long drawn out saber duels, considered this to be "just like the movies" and wanted the exact same thing in Single Player. The fact is with Deadly sabers, Duels were somewhat short (though I'd argue that if both people are reasonably good the duels will last much longer than if it's just two noobs bashing away at random).

At first Raven Software issued a patch that made the sabers incredibly weak. This pleased the dueling purists, as their duels now lasted at least twice as long as before. Being as this is the only type of game they played, they couldn't be happier.

But the rest of the players, who actually used the saber in other game modes, where other types of weapons were also present, this was a huge problem. As I said above, it takes too long to get kills with your saber, so unless you're role playing being a Jedi for kicks, you're going to lose against skillful gunners. Now I would argue the developers did not intend for the MP player to use the saber exclusively. That's why they provided multiple weapons. There was a secret mode called "Jedi Vs. Merc" added in the last patch that forced you to either use sabers or use guns, but it wasn't anywhere near balanced and unsupported. Anyway...

In the last JK2 patch they made it so you could simply change the saber damage to your liking. The default or any multiple you wanted. So you could make the sabers weak or strong. They specifically recommended if you wanted long duels, use 1, if you want normal damage for non-duels, use 2 (or 3). This is the reason we use 2 in JA MP!

In fact, I actually think it makes duels fun too, because there is that "sudden death" element. And if people are waiting in line to fight anyway, why would they want to wait one second longer for their turn? I mean, unless they're just professional spectators. ;)

In JA they retained the ability to change the damage, and in fact they supposedly made it "auto select" so that in duel mode it was automatically set to 1 and automatically set to 2 for non-duels. But through testing I'm not sure it always works that way. In any case the setting overrides whatever the defaults are in each mode. So you can play every mode with saberdamagescale 999 if you want to.

But I think a lot of servers either used the default or set it specifically to 1, meaning saber usage in non-Duels was discouraged (unless they made it the only weapon). Sabers only CTF was extremely silly unless you upped the saber damage.

Now I want to clarify one final thing before someone raises another common objection. The saberdamagescale cvar does NOT apply to "nicking" somebody with a blade. See, in JA, you can pass your blade (not swinging) through a person's body, through their head, whatever and they take NO DAMAGE. In Jedi Outcast pressing a saber blade against somebody did a "pulse" of damage, 5 hp per second. This was more realistic. In JA the "dangerous blade" was turned off by default, but it actually did continuous damage (1 hp per 1/5 second pressed against somebody). So you can nick somebody, but it will only do 1 hp of damage typically. For comparison, kicking somebody to the floor does 2 hp of damage. This is unaffected by the damage cvar, so you need not worry about touching somebody and melting them. ;)

Likewise Saber Throw is unaffected. Many objected to Saber throw in JA, because it does random damage, vs. JK2's which did I think about 80 damage every time (might have been 60, I forget).

Finally, SaberWallDamageScale is a seperate cvar. So boosting the saber damage won't make it so you can melt through walls too easily in Siege. I keep this on the default, because Jedi are powerful enough (in the hands of a skillful player) as it is!


So don't let all that intimidate you. We aren't biased for or against sabers, we're just giving the saberists a fair chance against gunners, and encouraging people to use the saber to complement the other weapons in your arsenal (the right tool for the job at the right time). And duels aren't absurdly long so everybody gets a chance to fight if they want to. I feel this is in keeping with how the developers originally intended the game to be played, and I think it's pretty fun this way. ;)
fun/fantasy movies existed before the overrated Star Wars came out. What made it seem 'less dark' was the sheer goofy aspect of it: two robots modeled on Laurel & Hardy, and a smartass outlaw with bigfoot co-pilot and their hotrod pizza-shaped ship, and they were sucked aboard a giant Disco Ball. -adw1
Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted. - Christopher Lee

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