501st Stroom Troopers vs Starfleet do gooders

[brianeyci]

LOL -- point, and I saw the Starfleet Marine Corps yesterday. While I think it's a bit much, thanks for that injection of a tad bit of sensibility.

Note to self: Resist the 'read the VS board' urge better/more often.

I found a nice read here, Starfleet Marine Corps Infantry Manual. It is a lot better than I expected. The SFMC ditches women's shaver phasers in favor of the assault phasers we see in ST:VI. Also it compensates for the lack of a squad support weapon, adds in anti-tank weapons, powered armor, and so on. Every weakness from lack of indirect fire to anti-aircraft guns is covered. The funnest part to read is the actual infantry tactics section. It sounds like this guy knows what he's writing about. Of course it's all fun and games, but it's nice to read what Star Trek infantry should be like if they were done by someone with an inkling of actual knowledge, and comparing it to the actual depiction of Star Trek military in the movies/series.

Brian

[DPDarkPrimus]

If suddenly weapons and armor turned real and Starfleet were put beside 501st... this is a stupid versus. Both sides are real human beings with real motivations, and therefore would probably not resort to killing each other at once.

Actually, Clonetroopers would have no reservations about carrying out such orders. Order 66, yo.

[Kurgan]

Even if only 1% of 501st members have actual military training like Coyote, that's 1% more people in the 501st who understand military tactics than we would have in a group of Starfleet redshirts.

That's assuming none of these redshirts understand military tactics or have actual military training.

Have you ever watched Star Trek?

Have you?

We're talking about a bunch of fans in costumes vs. another bunch of fans in costumes. You implied one group of fans in costumes had "more military knowledge" and so would win in a fight.

Now you're switching to talking about the fictional characters they represent... nobody is arguing that Stormtroopers would lose to redshirts, certainly not me!

[Stark]

I found a nice read here, Starfleet Marine Corps Infantry Manual. It is a lot better than I expected. The SFMC ditches women's shaver phasers in favor of the assault phasers we see in ST:VI. Also it compensates for the lack of a squad support weapon, adds in anti-tank weapons, powered armor, and so on. Every weakness from lack of indirect fire to anti-aircraft guns is covered. The funnest part to read is the actual infantry tactics section. It sounds like this guy knows what he's writing about. Of course it's all fun and games, but it's nice to read what Star Trek infantry should be like if they were done by someone with an inkling of actual knowledge, and comparing it to the actual depiction of Star Trek military in the movies/series.

It involves POWER ARMOUR. Ugh.

[Praxis]

It should be noted, however, that if you're a red shirt and get shot, somebody will say how sad your loss is (before proceeding to never mention your name again), while if you're a stormtrooper and you get shot, nobody cares.

[DPDarkPrimus]

It should be noted, however, that if you're a red shirt and get shot, somebody will say how sad your loss is (before proceeding to never mention your name again), while if you're a stormtrooper and you get shot, nobody cares.

We're not talking stormtroopers, though. We're talking clonetroopers, who have been shown to care about their fallen brethren. "Medic!"

[Kurgan]

It should be noted, however, that if you're a red shirt and get shot, somebody will say how sad your loss is (before proceeding to never mention your name again), while if you're a stormtrooper and you get shot, nobody cares.

We're not talking stormtroopers, though. We're talking clonetroopers, who have been shown to care about their fallen brethren. "Medic!"

Yeah, but surely there is an EU story being written (as we speak!) wherein right after that scene, the Trooper looked both ways, then snapped the neck of his fallen comrade.

See, they couldn't actually afford medics! Dang Pre-Imperial bureacracy!

PS: He also stole the guy's wallet afterward.

[Noble Ire]

It should be noted, however, that if you're a red shirt and get shot, somebody will say how sad your loss is (before proceeding to never mention your name again), while if you're a stormtrooper and you get shot, nobody cares.

We're not talking stormtroopers, though. We're talking clonetroopers, who have been shown to care about their fallen brethren. "Medic!"

Yeah, but surely there is an EU story being written (as we speak!) wherein right after that scene, the Trooper looked both ways, then snapped the neck of his fallen comrade.

See, they couldn't actually afford medics! Dang Pre-Imperial bureacracy!

PS: He also stole the guy's wallet afterward.

Kurgan, if your going to make post like that, throw in some smilies at least.

In any event, the EU has done a lot to give stormtroopers/clonetroopers more meaning and personality than ol' redshirts.

[brianeyci]

Actually, Clonetroopers would have no reservations about carrying out such orders. Order 66, yo.

Whoo hooo not only are the members of the 501st going to be brainwashed into believing in some Order 66, the people who dressed up as Palpatine will become immoral and want to suck the lifeforce out of everybody in the galaxy. Hmmm maybe the people who are dressed up as redshirts suddenly get reprogrammed as well to think like redshirts and the ones who have military training suddenly forget it all, because redshirts are like that too.

Oh well, barbecue, I'll stay on the fence and wait until whoever wins and pledge my allegiance then .

Brian

[DPDarkPrimus]

Actually, Clonetroopers would have no reservations about carrying out such orders. Order 66, yo.

Whoo hooo not only are the members of the 501st going to be brainwashed into believing in some Order 66, the people who dressed up as Palpatine will become immoral and want to suck the lifeforce out of everybody in the galaxy.

Unlike your hyperbole, my statement is grounded in hard fact. Clonetroopers are essentially programmed to follow orders without question or reservation.

[Kurgan]

When have we seen (non-CW era) Stormtroopers do differently?

[Edward Yee]

NobleIre, I will say this: in Star Wars: Empire #13, instead of a group of stormtroopers on a speeder trying to shake off a Rebel clinging to by a grappling (?) cord, it was the other way around.

Yes, clone stormtrooper TK-622 was the one fulfilling the protagonist role the whole issue. Even personally looked up to his commanding officer and saved his life on multiple occasions.

Oh well, barbecue, I'll stay on the fence and wait until whoever wins and pledge my allegiance then .

Hehe, good attitude. *hand-clap*

[brianeyci]

Unlike your hyperbole, my statement is grounded in hard fact. Clonetroopers are essentially programmed to follow orders without question or reservation.

...not these "clonetroopers". Did you read the whole thread, this is about 501st (a real life fanclub) versus Starfleet (another real life fanclub). A really retarded versus, perhaps offensive given the amount of charitable works both groups do, but that's what the op is. I hope you're joking and don't really think that just because people's equipment turn real, that they will start killing each other.

Brian

[DPDarkPrimus]

Well, if we're talking normal folks vs normal folks, than yeah, killing is not the first order of business.

[StimNeuro]

There's one aspect being overlooked here, costumes. The 501st are dressed in PVC that restricts their movement. The feddies are dressed in pajamas. Unless the PVC actually has some protective value in a brawl, it's just going to get in the way.

[Edward Yee]

Well, I don't see it being any different from "unarmored" vs. "plates-wearing...

[Kurgan]

There's one aspect being overlooked here, costumes. The 501st are dressed in PVC that restricts their movement. The feddies are dressed in pajamas. Unless the PVC actually has some protective value in a brawl, it's just going to get in the way.

Excellent point. They'll be less mobile. I don't know if it offers actual protection (might hurt to batter it with your fists, but you could use those plastic phaser rifles as clubs I suppose, or rip the helmet off a trooper and smack him in the face with it). More likely I think a 501st member would freak out if you broke his $5,000 suit of plastic.

Which might demoralize him... or send him into a wookiee-like rage that would ensure your assbeating!

[Darth Wong]

Unlike your hyperbole, my statement is grounded in hard fact. Clonetroopers are essentially programmed to follow orders without question or reservation.

...not these "clonetroopers". Did you read the whole thread, this is about 501st (a real life fanclub) versus Starfleet (another real life fanclub). A really retarded versus, perhaps offensive given the amount of charitable works both groups do, but that's what the op is. I hope you're joking and don't really think that just because people's equipment turn real, that they will start killing each other.

Brian

If you read the whole thread, you would know that the original subject was "which one would you join", and this whole "hypothetical fight" thing is a tangent.

[Darth Wong]

There's one aspect being overlooked here, costumes. The 501st are dressed in PVC that restricts their movement. The feddies are dressed in pajamas. Unless the PVC actually has some protective value in a brawl, it's just going to get in the way.

Excellent point. They'll be less mobile. I don't know if it offers actual protection (might hurt to batter it with your fists, but you could use those plastic phaser rifles as clubs I suppose, or rip the helmet off a trooper and smack him in the face with it). More likely I think a 501st member would freak out if you broke his $5,000 suit of plastic.

Which might demoralize him... or send him into a wookiee-like rage that would ensure your assbeating!

Did it occur to you that if the weapons are functional in this hypothetical matchup, then the rest of their gear should be functional as well, rather than being glorified costumes and props? That would include helmet HUD displays, communications, etc., not to mention protection from stun blasts and shrapnel.

[StimNeuro]

There's one aspect being overlooked here, costumes. The 501st are dressed in PVC that restricts their movement. The feddies are dressed in pajamas. Unless the PVC actually has some protective value in a brawl, it's just going to get in the way.

Excellent point. They'll be less mobile. I don't know if it offers actual protection (might hurt to batter it with your fists, but you could use those plastic phaser rifles as clubs I suppose, or rip the helmet off a trooper and smack him in the face with it). More likely I think a 501st member would freak out if you broke his $5,000 suit of plastic.

Which might demoralize him... or send him into a wookiee-like rage that would ensure your assbeating!

Did it occur to you that if the weapons are functional in this hypothetical matchup, then the rest of their gear should be functional as well, rather than being glorified costumes and props? That would include helmet HUD displays, communications, etc., not to mention protection from stun blasts and shrapnel.

I, and probably Kurgen as well, are operating under the belief that the weapons arae not functional and that the people are just carrying glorified props and costumes. The OP started off talking about the real-world groups, which spawned 2 vs sub-threads: sci-fi groups and their real-world counter-parts. I think that both myself and Kurgen were very clear with we were discussing...

[Darth Wong]

Well if nothing they have is functional, then the winner of a brawl would probably be whoever has more people. Although the stereotypical "trekkie/geek" correlation might merit some study; are hardore Trekkies actually more likely to be physically undersized or undermuscled compared to the general population?

[Kurgan]

Wong: Yes, I am assuming their gear and outfits are props/costumes and discussing the fans, not the characters they would represent in the fictional Star Wars/Star Trek worlds. So a stormtrooper helmet is just a plastic mask that makes it a little harder to see and makes your head sweat. A Type II phaser is a block of painted wood or plastic that does nothing (or at best a toy that makes noises).

As to the fans themselves:

Even if they are less physically muscular than the "general population" (do you see many fat stormtroopers? though I've seen some fat Imperial officers), there is also the "sumo wrestler effect." Knocking over a 300 lb. man who's ready for you would take some effort. Though it would help to know how muscular the general population is. In the few parts of America I've spent time in, I walk around and see nothing but fat people. Other places people are downright scrawny. Other areas, lots of atheletic types.

I've only been to the Great White North once, so you can probably tell me better what it's like up there.

There is no standard stormtrooper armor that I know if, it's all custom built (which is why it's so expensive if it looks movie-quality).

The stereotype of the geek as either a scrawny nerd or a fat couch potato I don't think is overreaching. I mean it's true a lot of Americans are overweight, and a lot of geeks are overweight. But does that mean all Trekkies are overweight and that all those in the Starfleet are overweight?

Those who put their dignity on the line for these organizations, for all we know, may take extra care with their figures so as to fit well into their costumes, custom built or not. But that's pure speculation on my part.


I've seen a few dozen photos of such people. I know fans in general range in body types. But these particular groups? Who knows.

[Bounty]

According to the Starfleet website, they organise athletic events and things like hiking trips.

And I don't see why fans of one franchise should be healthier then fans of the other.

[brianeyci]

We don't really need to guess anyway. There's people as high ranking as a USN Captain. These are only the ones that register too, and only the ones in SFMC which are 600 out of the 4500.

SFMC Military Members.

And okay back on topic, if I wanted to join an organization I would join Starfleet just because it seems you don't need a professional quality costume to join (I looked at 501st and their only requirements were that you be over 18 and have a professional quality costume). Starfleet has a membership fee, but that's better than paying the hundreds or thousands (I'm guessing that's how much a real stormtrooper uniform fitted to your size, if I'm wrong I apologize) up front. At least you'll be able to cancel your membership with Starfleet if it turns out you don't like them. I read the manual for Starfleet, you don't need to wear a uniform if you don't want to, but if you do it has to be professional quality.

If you're under 18 too, 501st is no go so better start saving your play-doh for pointed ears (yes I used to "save" play-doh from school, if you know what I mean lol).

Brian

[brianeyci]

Correction, a lot of those on the wall look to be family members rather than actual members of SFMC. There's nobody on that wall with notes that they've died in Iraq, all the members there could be family members of SFMC people. Doesn't matter, the tangent versus was stupid anyway.

Brian