Sovereign class, rear torpedo launcher.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-01 08:03pm

One thing that always bugged me from Insurrection was that we see the E-E launch two photon torpedoes from a rear launcher. The thing that bugged me was the fact that no matter how hard a tried, I could not find this launcher. I sorta played with the idea that MAYBE they had the shuttle bay open and used the Venture scout to fire them. But then the Nemesis trailed came along and suddenly we see torpedoes come from the aft again. This time we see a much better position and low and behold the rear shuttlebay was closed.

So, just where is this rear launcher? I continued my efforts, and at last I found it. In the first Nemesis trailer we see the shuttle Argo launch from the Enterprise. It launchs from the same location as the shuttle from Insurrection. We have a nice view of the Enterprise from this angle, and there I noticed it. The Shuttle Bay is the "1st" tier on the Sovereign class saucer. Then there is a "2nd" tier with a clyndrical protrussion, the "3rd" and final tier is the bridge area. On the very top of the 2nd Tier is an odd looking device with two apparent black points to it. Looking at it, the launcher seems somewhat small, but then you notice its likely a side by side launcher, a double. And its not THAT small. The Quantum Torpedo turret fires from a VERY small area given it fights for room with the Captain Yacht.

So, there we have it. The rear torpedo launcher is actually two. This is supported by the Enterprise firing two seperate volleys of three torpedoes at the Romulan ship. This is also somewhat supported by the Enterprise firing two somewhat space apart torpedoes at the Sona ships.

So, whats the issue? Why is this really worth posting? Well, there is a SLIGHT problem. This launcher is only seen in the Nemesis trailer. It is not on the Enterprise in either First Contact or Insurrection.

Sooo. Was the Enterprise upgraded since we last saw it? I think not. We saw it fire from a rear launcher in the same aproximate location in Insurrection. I speculate that someone on the technical staff was smart enough to notice the Enterprise fired torpedoes from a place with no launcher in Insurrection. Yet we KNOW it fired from that place. Their solution for Nemesis is to place a launcher in the location. In other words, the Nemesis model of the Enterprise is the correct one and the Insurrection model is not. Simply put, its a VFX screw up that took two movies to be fixed.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-01 08:16pm

Well, I need to see a picture first. Interesting, though.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-01 08:17pm

(mubbles)

My DVD player and Quck-Time do NOT like having screen shots taken of them.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-12-01 08:24pm

If you use QuickTime, you can usually copy-paste a frame. You may not be able to do a conventional screenshot due to hardware overlay issues.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-01 08:25pm

phongn wrote:If you use QuickTime, you can usually copy-paste a frame. You may not be able to do a conventional screenshot due to hardware overlay issues.

Yeah, I tried a screen shot and it went into paint, but then when I closed Quick-Time the damned picture disapeared and Paint was blank.

How do I copy and past a single frame?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-12-01 08:42pm

Alyeska wrote:How do I copy and past a single frame?

I might be able to do it; right now, I'm trying to see if I even have the trailer on my HD.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-01 08:57pm

Crayz9000 wrote:
Alyeska wrote:How do I copy and past a single frame?
I might be able to do it; right now, I'm trying to see if I even have the trailer on my HD.

This is the trailer that starts off rather peacefully, has a shot of the Romulan city, and has Picard saying "It seems as if we trully are sailing off into the unknown" or something along those lines. Early in the clip you see the Argo launched from the Enterprise. That section is where you can spot the two torpedo launchers.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-01 10:12pm

I see what you mean. A tanish bulge with two small black box's just above it. Could very well be the launcher or launchers.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-01 10:19pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:I see what you mean. A tanish bulge with two small black box's just above it. Could very well be the launcher or launchers.

Thats it exactly. And the thing I am pointing out is this bulge is not on the Enterprise in Insurrection.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-12-01 10:37pm

Alyeska wrote:
Crayz9000 wrote:
Alyeska wrote:How do I copy and past a single frame?
I might be able to do it; right now, I'm trying to see if I even have the trailer on my HD.
This is the trailer that starts off rather peacefully, has a shot of the Romulan city, and has Picard saying "It seems as if we trully are sailing off into the unknown" or something along those lines. Early in the clip you see the Argo launched from the Enterprise. That section is where you can spot the two torpedo launchers.

OK, here's the image, 200% size for analysis.

And on a marginally related note, here is concrete evidence of hull-conforming shields:

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-01 10:47pm

http://community.webshots.com/storage/1 ... LDG_ph.jpg

Ok, that is the rear torpedo launcher that we didn't see in Insurrection. When you look at that section of the Enterprise when they launched the shuttle in the movie, that bulge wasn't there.

The reason I believe this is indeed the launcher is because when we saw the Enteprise engage the Romulan ship in the most recent trailer, we saw torpedoes comming from above the shuttle bay.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-12-01 10:51pm

OK, that makes sense. BTW, here's the original studio model:

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-01 10:54pm

Crayz9000 wrote:OK, that makes sense. BTW, here's the original studio model:

Yep, you can see that bulge is not on the original model.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-01 10:55pm

Fascinating.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-02 03:08am

I can't see it on the 200% image posted and .... I can't follow that URL

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2002-12-02 12:23pm

Can you tell what kind of Torpedos were fired from it? Quantum would make more sense, giving all quantums in the saucer and all photons in the secondary hull.

That would provide 4 aft tubes, 2 above, and 2 below.

Fore tubes would be the turret and the lower pair, with another pair possible in the saucer( more likely now with the aft pair making a showing)

Total- potentially 8 tubes plus the turret, 4Q and 4P in pairs fore and aft.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-02 03:40pm

Andras wrote:Can you tell what kind of Torpedos were fired from it? Quantum would make more sense, giving all quantums in the saucer and all photons in the secondary hull.

That would provide 4 aft tubes, 2 above, and 2 below.

Fore tubes would be the turret and the lower pair, with another pair possible in the saucer( more likely now with the aft pair making a showing)

Total- potentially 8 tubes plus the turret, 4Q and 4P in pairs fore and aft.

The Aft launcher featured in Insurrection and Nemesis fires Photon Torpedoes.

Canon wise we know the Sovereign class has a turreted Quantum Torpedo launcher just forward of the Captains Yacht and 2 rear Photon Torpedo launchers above and forward of the secondary shuttlebay.

Offically the Sovereign class has 2 more photon torpedo launchers below and behind the deflector dish aimed forward, then another 2 in the same area but further back aimed aft. That would put the Sovereign class with 3 forward launchers (1 QT, 2 Photon) with all three being biassed towards a downward angle. Then you would have 4 aft launchers (all Photon) with 2 biassed on a downward angle and 2 biassed on an upward angle. This puts the Sovereign class as having its forward top angle without torpedo coverage, though it does have heavy phaser coverage in that angle.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-02 03:51pm

Alyeska wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:I see what you mean. A tanish bulge with two small black box's just above it. Could very well be the launcher or launchers.
Thats it exactly. And the thing I am pointing out is this bulge is not on the Enterprise in Insurrection.

Well the E-E did take significant damage, it might have been added on while she was in the yard under repairs.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-02 04:08pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:I see what you mean. A tanish bulge with two small black box's just above it. Could very well be the launcher or launchers.
Thats it exactly. And the thing I am pointing out is this bulge is not on the Enterprise in Insurrection.
Well the E-E did take significant damage, it might have been added on while she was in the yard under repairs.

Normally I agree, but there is actual Enterprise capability that mitigates against this. The Enterprise fired from this same location in Insurrection and the Scout was to big to bit in the shuttlebay right there. As I said, I think someone noted the Enterprise fired from a location where this is none on the model. So they fixed that for this movie. I prefer to use a little bit of logical anlysis rather then simply saying it was upgraded. Its partly the same line of reasoning that says the E-D can't fire phasers from its torpedo launcher regardless of a particular episode.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-12-02 06:46pm

Vympel wrote:I can't see it on the 200% image posted and .... I can't follow that URL

Try reloading the page. My server isn't the fastest on the planet, since it's limited by a 128Kbit/sec upload speed.

I suppose it's suffering something like the Slashdot Effect because of the images I post here

Andras · Post by **Andras** » 2002-12-02 11:39pm

Alyeska wrote: The Aft launcher featured in Insurrection and Nemesis fires Photon Torpedoes.

Canon wise we know the Sovereign class has a turreted Quantum Torpedo launcher just forward of the Captains Yacht and 2 rear Photon Torpedo launchers above and forward of the secondary shuttlebay.

Offically the Sovereign class has 2 more photon torpedo launchers below and behind the deflector dish aimed forward, then another 2 in the same area but further back aimed aft. That would put the Sovereign class with 3 forward launchers (1 QT, 2 Photon) with all three being biassed towards a downward angle. Then you would have 4 aft launchers (all Photon) with 2 biassed on a downward angle and 2 biassed on an upward angle. This puts the Sovereign class as having its forward top angle without torpedo coverage, though it does have heavy phaser coverage in that angle.

That works, the Fact File claims 2 Qtubes on the saucer foreward, straddling the secondary deflector mount. I can't find my model, is that on the top of the hull? They would provide fore and up coverage if so. Still has 8 tubes, 2Q, 6P, plus the turret.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-02 11:46pm

Oh wait NOW I see it ... cool.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-02 11:52pm

Andras wrote:
Alyeska wrote: The Aft launcher featured in Insurrection and Nemesis fires Photon Torpedoes.

Canon wise we know the Sovereign class has a turreted Quantum Torpedo launcher just forward of the Captains Yacht and 2 rear Photon Torpedo launchers above and forward of the secondary shuttlebay.

Offically the Sovereign class has 2 more photon torpedo launchers below and behind the deflector dish aimed forward, then another 2 in the same area but further back aimed aft. That would put the Sovereign class with 3 forward launchers (1 QT, 2 Photon) with all three being biassed towards a downward angle. Then you would have 4 aft launchers (all Photon) with 2 biassed on a downward angle and 2 biassed on an upward angle. This puts the Sovereign class as having its forward top angle without torpedo coverage, though it does have heavy phaser coverage in that angle.
That works, the Fact File claims 2 Qtubes on the saucer foreward, straddling the secondary deflector mount. I can't find my model, is that on the top of the hull? They would provide fore and up coverage if so. Still has 8 tubes, 2Q, 6P, plus the turret.

This is the Launcher you are referring to.

http://www.shiporama.org/images/sovereign/1701e-62.jpg

I disagree with the Fact Files on those being a Quantum Torpedo launchers. Also, they have a relatively forward biassed launching angle with it constricted in the top coverage because of the saucer leaving its best arc as a forward bottom fire angle.

Wait a second. In the saucer forward but stradling the deflector mount?

Yeah, I think these are the tubes your thinking. I find it more likely these are Photon Torpedo launchers because they more closely resemble the aft launchers.

That gives us 3 forward and 2 aft launchers. Only 1 Quantum launcher.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-03 12:15am

I still want to know why homing weapons need a turet to launch them.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-03 12:20am

Ender wrote:I still want to know why homing weapons need a turet to launch them.

It allows for much more ease of firing the weapon. It can be aimed directly on the target at closer ranges and the weapon does not have to make major corrections and thus risk loosing its target.