[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[m.castaldo]

Didn't even think of using the old Marvel RPG stats.

[Ghost Rider]

Didn't even think of using the old Marvel RPG stats.

There's a reason and you can see the flaw already.

One, the RPG stats are not canon by any stretch. Think about what ali-sama is posting and and think of the level of powers demonstrated by the X-Men.

That's all I have to say, because anyone claiming the Juggernaut can withstand a 20TT explosion, and read the same comics everyone else is reading, there's only one word for it.

[Bertie Wooster]

what can cause a class 1000 force?

the shockwave of a 670 MegaTons (671,080,000 T)(2,80779872e+12) is class 1000, but shock wave alone is not enough. since the rest of the stats are much weaker.

an explosion, blast of 20 TeraTons (21,990,000,000,000 T) (2,80779872e+12 joules ) can do class 3000 shock wave and class 1000 fireball(no effect on 3000 shield) with radiation being weak,
anything that can hol that explosion in place can stop the jugernaut eaisly.

now. juggernaught has a shield around him. which is class 3000.
you woudl need a fire blast of at least 3000 with radiantion and shock wave high enough to hurt/kill him.

we get
5 ExaTons (5,764,500,000,000,000,000 T) (2.4118668e+28 joules)
CL 5000 (Shockwave)(definalty penetrate shield)
CL 3000 (Fireball)(hurt shield)
CL 1000 (Radiation)(no effect)

Al-sama, not to debate your point, but I'm curious where you got those numbers of converting Classic Marvel rpg stats into energy. I'd be very interested in reading more from that source.

[ali-sama]

Didn't even think of using the old Marvel RPG stats.

There's a reason and you can see the flaw already.

One, the RPG stats are not canon by any stretch. Think about what ali-sama is posting and and think of the level of powers demonstrated by the X-Men.

That's all I have to say, because anyone claiming the Juggernaut can withstand a 20TT explosion, and read the same comics everyone else is reading, there's only one word for it.

i was not debating it. just doing a wankfest. Like I mentioned.

[Noble Ire]

i was not debating it. just doing a wankfest. Like I mentioned.

So you just posted a long-winded amalgum of baseless "wank" for no more reason than to call it "a wankfest"? Are you trying to make a point or something?

[ali-sama]

i was not debating it. just doing a wankfest. Like I mentioned.

So you just posted a long-winded amalgum of baseless "wank" for no more reason than to call it "a wankfest"? Are you trying to make a point or something?

yes and no.
I can actually proove it with comic issues. I am doing reasearch to find refrences now.
Ali

[Darth Wong]

Eclipse-class Star Destroyers can easily shrug off clusters of teraton explosions, and one of Wank-Palpatine's Force storms easily destroyed an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer. Pitting Wank-Juggernaut against Wank-Palpatine is not necessarily going to help your case.

More realistically, as has been said before, they don't need to vape or even injure him at all. All they have to do is levitate him off the ground, and then move him to a location where they dispose of him in a more permanent fashion. If necessary, they could simply push him into space, where he would float helplessly until they get around to flying up with a shuttle and tractoring him off to the Sun.

[HSRTG]

The ability to survive temperatures up to the surface of the sun's is insignifigent next to the power to leave you in orbit for all eternity.

Although, they could simply launch him straight up with just enough force to get outside Courescant's energy shields, then activate them. IIRC Star Wars energy shields DISINTIGRATE objects hitting them, so at the very least Juggernaut is going to receive a fucking nasty shock. Are there any calculations as to how much power Courescant's energy shields have? I'd be interested to see them and to see the top of how much energy Juggernaut has taken at once.

[ali-sama]

Eclipse-class Star Destroyers can easily shrug off clusters of teraton explosions, and one of Wank-Palpatine's Force storms easily destroyed an Eclipse-class Star Destroyer. Pitting Wank-Juggernaut against Wank-Palpatine is not necessarily going to help your case.

More realistically, as has been said before, they don't need to vape or even injure him at all. All they have to do is levitate him off the ground, and then move him to a location where they dispose of him in a more permanent fashion. If necessary, they could simply push him into space, where he would float helplessly until they get around to flying up with a shuttle and tractoring him off to the Sun.

yes. if they manage to transport him into space or a sun. that woudl get rid of him. but not defeat him. he would probably use one of the solar flairs to escape the sun or leave when it goes nova.
your strategy is valid and taken. But it is no fun.


btw I thought heavy tl did 22 gt dammage. what would be firing at the ecplise?. it woudl take 50 htl to do 1 terreton of dammage. .

btw I am not relaly debating this. Just providing facts on juggernaught. and marvel stats. since people are not aware of them.

juggernaught has only been physiclaly hurt by 1 person.
The strenth of his force field is consistant in the comics.
It woudl take a 5.8 expoton explosion(which was created from what i am told from the collission of 2 planets and lots and lots of planet busting nukes) in the sixth issue of the thanos comics. The target was galactus, who's endurance is also class 3000. he survived. he was at dead center of impact.

In marvel, a laser, in order to do what the death star did, at max would be class 3000. death star is not a laser, it;s a exotic hypermatter beam. therefore the level is much lower. shift z or class 1000 at best. shift z or class 1000 cannot scratch a class 3000 shield.


to show the diffrence between the classes.
a class 1000 explosion(all thermo nuclearl) is 670 mt
class 3000 blast is 20 terratons
class 5000 is exotons(this is what is needed to hurt/kill him).
this is for thermo nuclear explosions.

as a class 3000 laser is clearly 1e38 jouls. In marvel. the type of dammage determines the dammage class. not just the jouls put into it.

a beam of cosmic energy, for instace, can blow up planets at much lower levels.
you cannot go by class alone but nature of weapons etc.

l

[ali-sama]

fuck i messed up.
ok here is a fix. I am tired. had not eaten much. just got some gater aid.

A class 3000 laser is equal to the death star. which does 1e38 j of dammage.
the exoton explosion is not in the same leage. as far as joules.
so. a class 3000 laser would kill juggernaught.
but not a class 3000 thermo nuclear device.
for anything to do dammage to juggernaught, it has to be in the exoton range. No matter what the weapon is. tl etc won;t do it. superlaser. yes.

[ali-sama]

quick comment.

The opener did not mention the time period period.

It has to be pre return of the sith as dokooo is alive.

If this takes place pre aotc. They will not get any republic support, as no clone troopers were in service. The jedi would emmedietly sence the dark force users and back up juggernaught with the republic aremy at their backs.

[SirNitram]

Ali-Sama, from which orifice of your body did you get your conversion of RPG abstractions into energy from? I'm thinking your asshole, myself, but maybe you can tell us.

[ali-sama]

Ali-Sama, from which orifice of your body did you get your conversion of RPG abstractions into energy from? I'm thinking your asshole, myself, but maybe you can tell us.

cool. My anus is marvel comics and this site,
http://www.classicmarvel.com/phorum/rea ... #msg-41302
I have one rich anus.
thanos issue #6 is when the 5.8 exaton explosion happens. you can read about it there.

[HSRTG]

btw I thought heavy tl did 22 gt dammage. what would be firing at the ecplise?. it woudl take 50 htl to do 1 terreton of dammage. .

From the AotC ICS, Acclimator section: "12 quad turbolaser turrets (200 gigatons/shot)..."

We don't know whether these are more or less powerful then the later Star Destroyer's heavy turbolasers. I think. The RotS ICS might contradict me.

In marvel, a laser, in order to do what the death star did, at max would be class 3000. death star is not a laser, it;s a exotic hypermatter beam. therefore the level is much lower. shift z or class 1000 at best. shift z or class 1000 cannot scratch a class 3000 shield.

Where did you get the exotic hypermatter beam stuff from? A couple sources against that:
What the DS beam is (Main site)
Darth Wong's page on Darkstar (MCR argument)

snip misc. class 3000/type of damage stuff

Could you give me a link so I can attempt to verify that? Also, why would a nuclear explosion of the same force NOT damage him?

The jedi would emmedietly sence the dark force users and back up juggernaught with the republic aremy at their backs.

No army, remember? Look up a sentence. Next, why would they back Juggernaut? It's quite possible he would be causing more destruction then the Sith, and the Jedi are all for protecting the innocent. If the Sith could convince the Jedi that Juggernaut was the bigger threat (possible), then they'll ally.

Now, what are the locations of the Jedi Masters of the Council? IIRC they were going to look for the Sith, and it's not until post AotC/in RotS they figure out the Sith are on Courescant. Also, this puts us pre-AotC, as Dooku is revealed to be a Sith then, and it would certainly be quite an event to have a Sith found in the Senate with the Chancellar. Pre-AotC he could claim that Dooku was offering advice, and later act innocent; but post AotC the Jedi would immediately begin thoroughly investigating him if found.

[HSRTG]

Addendum: Third link in Star Wars Myths on main site.

[SirNitram]

Ali-Sama, from which orifice of your body did you get your conversion of RPG abstractions into energy from? I'm thinking your asshole, myself, but maybe you can tell us.

cool. My anus is marvel comics and this site,
http://www.classicmarvel.com/phorum/rea ... #msg-41302
I have one rich anus.
thanos issue #6 is when the 5.8 exaton explosion happens. you can read about it there.

Yes.. Wow.. An unsupported set of statements just like yours. See? This is Nitram not impressed. He's not seeing, you know, evidence.

[Eframepilot]

Well, I found a list of Juggernaut's various feats in the comics, taken from +http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f43/t356857.html.

When fighting an army battalion,The Juggernaut slammed his fists into the ground with such force it created an earthquake that ripped through the entire valley and brought a hill crumbling down on them. --Uncanny X-Men #33

Instead of moving out of the way,he lets Spider-Man drive a gas tanker right into him. Not only is he totally unmoving from the impact,but he walks out of the resulting gas inferno on fire and completely unconcerned. --The Amazing Spider-Man #230

The Juggernaut allowed Dazzler to futily blast all her energy directly into him at point blank range until she was drained. She fell unconscious as he stood over her completely unharmed. --Uncanny X-Men #218

took the Fantastic Four's Thing down for the count in seconds with just 3 successive blows. Thing would arise,only to fall back down unconscious. --Secret Wars II #7

sent Thor hurtling across the skies and then through a store wall with a casual backslap. --Thor #411

When hit so hard by Rogue of the X-Men that the shockwave from the punch shattered every window of the street,The Juggernaut simply stood there looking down on her with his arms crossed. --Uncanny X-Men #218

The Juggernaut caused the entire X-Mansion to shake and nearly collapse by stomping from all the way at the front gates of the estate. And was said to be using only a fraction of his power to accomplish it. --Uncanny X-Men #12

The Juggernaut has on two occasions allowed Cannonball to blast directly into him. And both times Cannonball was knocked out of blast mode and barely conscious while The Juggernaut remained totally unmoved and unphased.

The Juggernaut has withstood even Thor's godforce(which caused Galactus to flee for his life on one occasion,and shattered the prime Celestial's protective dome on another) with absolutely no physical damage whatsoever. --Thor #412

He withstood a direct blast from Stellaris's Celestial armor with zero effect to his person. The sheer energy radius of the blast hitting him was so powerful it created a large chasm in the Earth. --Thunderstrike #2

In a confrontation with Colossus,the first blow Juggernaut connects with ends the fight. Leaving Colossus unconcious when he lands from it. --Uncanny X-Men #183

The Juggernaut nearly drowned the Hulk by forcing Hulk's head underwater. Hulk had to use silt from the riverbed in Juggernaut's eyes to make The Juggernaut release his grip on Hulk's neck. --Hulk #402

Harmlessly absorbed a million volts of electricity. --Amazing Spider-Man #229

Despite suffering a significant power loss,The Juggernaut was still able to match Prime(who proved more than strong enough to match Thor punch for punch) in a direct test of strength before slamming Prime back through a wall. --Exiles #4

Tore through a wall 50 times the tensile strength of battleship steel as though it were a "a thin layer of plywood". --Uncanny X-Men #12

He had a vat of molten steel dumped on him by Deadpool and continued to fight uneffected and awash with flame. --Deadpool vol.1 #3

In a fight with the New Warriors,Firestar tried to stop him by heating his armor to the point where it became white hot. The Juggernaut didn't even acknowledge her attack whatsoever. --Thor #412

He hit Captain Britain with such force the Excalibur leader skidded away creating nearly a mile long groove in the ground with his body. --Excalibur #3

Trapped in 40-foot cocoon of solid steel,The Juggernaut exploded out in violent fashion by flexing his arms. --Thor #412

Stripped to only a fraction of his strength,he still is strong enough to easily choke Rogue while she fought to free herself with one hand while fending off Colossus with the other. --Marvel Team-Up #150(it was stated in the Marvel Handbook that both Tom and Juggernaut actually had less than a half of The Juggernaut's power as they had assumed)

Collapsed an entire skyscraper(possibly a World Trade Center tower) with a ram of his shoulder. --Spider-Man #16

Engaging fellow exemplar Stonecutter in a toe-to-toe slugfest,the punches they traded to one another caused earthquakes and was said to be the greatest fury ever unleashed on Earth. --Juggernaut:Eighth Day

On two separate occasions when lifted from the ground and held in midair by Jean Grey,The Juggernaut proves unstoppable by continuing to advance toward her irregardless despite having no physical footholds or leverage.

Having magically been stripped of all of his flesh,The Juggernaut still stood before his enemy to complete the battle as merely a skeleton. --Juggernaut OneShot

The Juggernaut walked right through a stream of Chamber's full power bio energy blast. Despite Chamber exerting so much effort into it he fell unconscious in the attempt. --Generation-X #61

Facing the Stranger who'd grown to about 50 feet tall,The Juggernaut lept up and toppled him with one punch --X-Men Forever #6

Took a direct blast from the new-look Cyclops that was described by him as being able to "rip a small planet in half" with a smile as The Juggernaut's only reaction. --Cyclops #1

Given Juggernaut's resistance to Thor's Godforce blast, he ought to be able to take anything a Sith Lord can throw at him. His heat resistance is likely to be far above what a lightsaber can produce, given his ignoring of Firestar's attack. And finally, his walking through Jean Grey's TK lifts despite having no footholds... speaks for itself.

[ali-sama]

As Stark says, "going after the head" and "removing the helmet that protects the head" are hardly unintuitive ideas. I'd say they're natural responses to an enemy that you can't seem to damage. Also, the Juggernaut's ability to survive weapons as hot as the surface of the Sun is not that impressive; a modern industrial plasma torch can produce temperatures which are more than twice as high as the Sun's surface temperature.

Worst-case scenario: if they decide that they can't hurt or kill him, they can always just levitate him until they can order a shuttle to put a tractor beam on him. Then they just haul him off to the nearest star and drop him inside. Enjoy eternity, Marko.

somthing abou this bothered me until I realized what. Let's say they are able to deposite him in the nearest uninhabited moon/ astroid or even a sun.
True, they get rid of him as a treath. But in the end. Who really wins.
true juggernaught will be stuck in some remote area in the middle of no where. But he will outlast the empire, the new republic an then some.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Does that magical forcefield keep him from aging though?

I know he has no need for air, food, water or rest whatsoever but i dont know if he'll eventually grow old and die like the rest of us or not.

I would imagine, as he's supposed to have limitless internal stores of energy and strength, he would not but i'm not sure.

[Stark]

This is getting asinine. If you're going with the 'Juggernaut is unstoppable by definition', then woop-de-do, you've got a wankfest. If you're going to say 'OMGZOR JUGGY will OutLive everyone for t3h win!!!!11', why can't we return by describing what eternal imprisonment is like?

To be honest, Juggernaut is a tragic character. Wank him out all you like - that just means he's going to keep living forever, regardless of how much intergalactic space he floats through courtesy of the Empire.

I repeat: if you define Juggernaut as a walking no-limits fallacy, there is no analysis.

[Ghost Rider]

LOL...wow. Unsupported assumption of what powers must mean.

Anyone want to give us some calculations of what Thor's Godforce is a low end of or any of the "Random cosmic" blast are? But given this we assume and add to it that he walks through Jean TK blast, it's given!!

Wait, isn't he defeated because his HELMET gets ripped off?

Shit, guess we'll have to dig back and go "Dur there be his helmet doing shit!"

[Ghost Rider]

As Stark says, "going after the head" and "removing the helmet that protects the head" are hardly unintuitive ideas. I'd say they're natural responses to an enemy that you can't seem to damage. Also, the Juggernaut's ability to survive weapons as hot as the surface of the Sun is not that impressive; a modern industrial plasma torch can produce temperatures which are more than twice as high as the Sun's surface temperature.

Worst-case scenario: if they decide that they can't hurt or kill him, they can always just levitate him until they can order a shuttle to put a tractor beam on him. Then they just haul him off to the nearest star and drop him inside. Enjoy eternity, Marko.

somthing abou this bothered me until I realized what. Let's say they are able to deposite him in the nearest uninhabited moon/ astroid or even a sun.
True, they get rid of him as a treath. But in the end. Who really wins.
true juggernaught will be stuck in some remote area in the middle of no where. But he will outlast the empire, the new republic an then some.

Yes, because to WIN means to outlast your opponent, being absolutely and completely powerless.

And just for your whole thought to

Win:

• To achieve victory or finish first in.
• To receive as a prize or reward for performance.
• To achieve or attain by effort: win concessions in negotiations.
• To obtain or earn (a livelihood, for example). See Synonyms at earn1.
• To make (one's way) with effort.
• To reach with difficulty: The ship won a safe port.
• To take in battle; capture: won the heights after a fierce attack.
• To succeed in gaining the favor or support of; prevail on: Her eloquence won over the audience.
• To gain the affection or loyalty of.
• To appeal successfully to (someone's sympathy, for example).
• To persuade (another) to marry one: He wooed and won her.
• To discover and open (a vein or deposit) in mining.
• To extract from a mine or from mined ore.

Nothing about outlasting one's opponent helplessly. Oh wait, I expect you to go into something about how a great man's piece of wisdom once stated that "He who outlasts an opponent is the true winner.". If that was the defining point of winning any conflict, no man would fight.

So please, tell us how outlasting Palpatine is a win.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well i of course dont think he can 'win' by simply surviving the Empire. But doesnt the fact he can maneuver while being levitated negate the idea he can just be made powerless by TK levitating him? Also the Celestial blast that blew a huge chasm in the Earth, wouldnt that be on a scale beyond what a lightsaber can do, very far beyond i would imagine.

I mean just because the idea he can win by outlasting the Empire alone is wrong, or at least not a true victory, there is some important information there about what he can withstand, isnt it?

By the way i should mention i would think Palpatine could win, by throwing him in a star and calling it a day. Even though he might likely survive and outlive them all, he'd be defeated in this battle because he'd be powerless unless or until he somehow escaped, which is very likely impossible. So my stance is clear, i was just asking because some claims were made as to how this or that could defeat him, earlier, and i was thinking maybe these are somewhat negated by this.

[Eleas]

Worst part is, the quantifications are bogus. I had the Excalibur comic where Captain Britain was bitchslapped by Jugs. Way I remember it there was no data whatsoever on how far he slid, and the fact that the text is so authorative makes me wary.

[Ghost Rider]

The problem with that list, is it doesn't show the low end feats that have defeated him that didn't require said character able to obliterate all life on the planet.

Beings of far lesser power have lifted him and helmet away. He does not show by any stretch some 2 .0 ^10*500 power that only things on that order can phase him.

That is my problem with what some of the defenders have been showing just to go "Uh...yeah see, Juggs Wins because it takes such and such power to phase him....if we ignore all the other times that some lesser being takes him helmet off!!!"

And the cries of "They wouldn't know!!!" falls onto the same thought that basic killing thoughts are, if you can't reach a soft spot, you aim for the head.