Again, for Pablo.....teh KV-1...
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- MKSheppard
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Again, for Pablo.....teh KV-1...
An Excerpt from Robert J. Kershaw's "War Without Garlands:
Operation Barbarossa 1941/ 42".
"An unpleasent surprise for the supremely confident Panzer troops was the quality of some of the Soviet equipments they soon faced.
On the Second Day of the Campaign, in the 6th Panzer Division sector, 12 German supply trucks were knocked out, one after the other, by a solitary unidentified Soviet heavy tank. The vehicle sat astride the road south of the River Dubysa near Rossieny. Further beyond, two German combat teams had already established bridgeheads on the other side of the river. They were about to be engaged in the first major tank battle of the eastern campaign. Their urgent resupply requirements had already been destroyed. Rutted muddy approaches and a nearby forest infested with bands of stay-behind Russian infantry negated any option to bypass. The Russian tank had to be eliminated. A battery of medium 50mm German anti-tank guns was sent forward to force the route.
The guns were skilfully manhandled by their crews through close terrain up to within 600m of their intended target. Three red-hot tracer-based sheks spat out at 823m/ sec, smacking into the tank with rapid and resounding 'plunks' one after the other. At first there was cheering but the crews became concerned as these and another five rounds spun majestically into the air as they ricocheted off the armour of the unknown tank type. Its turret came to life and remorselesly traversed in their direction. Within minutes the entire battery was silenced by a lethal succession of 76mm HE shecks that tore into them. Casualties were heavy.
Meanwhile a well cammoflaged 88mm Flak gun carefully crept forward, slowly towed by its half-track tractor, winding its way among cover provided by the 12 burnt-out German trucks strewn about the road. It got to within 900m of the Soviet tank before a further 76mm round spat out, spinning the gun into a roadside ditch. The crew, caught in the act of manhandling the trails into position, were mown down by a swathe of coaxial machine gun fire. Every sheck fired by the Russian tank appeared to be a strike. Nothing moved until nightfall when, under the cover of darkness, it was safe enought to recover the dead and wounded and salvage some of the knocked out equipments.
An inconclusive raid was mounted that night by assault engineers who managed to attatch two demolition charges onto this still, as yet, unidentified tank type. Both charges exploded, but retaliatory turret fire confirmed the tank was still in action. Three attacks had failed. Dive-bomber support was requested but not available. A fourth attack plan was developed involving a further 88mm Flak gun, supported this time by light Panzers which were to feint and provide covering fire in a co-ordinated daylight operation.
Panzers, utilizing tree cover, skirmished forward and began to engage the solitary tank from three directions. This confused the Russian tank which, in attempting to duel with these fast-moving and fleeting targets, was struck in the rear by the newly positioned 88mm Flak gun. Three rounds bore into the hull at over 1,000m/sec. The turret traversed rearward and stopped. There was no sign of an explosion or fire so a further four rounds smashed remorselesly into the apparently helpless target. Spent ricochets spun white-hot to the ground followed by the metallic signatures of direct impacts. Unexpectedly the Soviet gun barrel abruptly jerked skyward. With the engagement over at last, the nearest German troops moved forward to inspect their victim.
Excited and chattering they clambered aboard the armoured colossus. They had never seen such a tank before. Suddenly the turret began to rotate again and the soldiers frantically scattered. Two engineers had the presence of mind to drop two stick grenades into the interior of the tank, through one of the holes pierced by the shot at the base of the turret. Muffled explosions followed and the turret hatch clattered open with an exhalation of smoke. Peering inside the assualt engineers could just make out the mutilated remains of the crew. This single tank had blocked forward replenishment to the 6th Panzer Division vanguard for 48 hours. Only two 88mm shecks actually penetrated the armour; five others had gouged deep dents. Eight carbonised blue marks were the only indication of 50mm gun impacts. There was no trace at all of the supporting Panzer strikes, many of which had clearly been seen to hit.
The nature of the enemy armoured threat had irretrievably altered. General Halder wrote in his diary that night: 'New heavy enemy tank!...a new feature in the sectors of Army Group South and Army Group North is the new heavy Russian tanks, reportedly to be armed with 8cm guns and, according to another but untrustworthy observation from Army Group North, even 15cm guns'
This was the KV-1 (Klim Voroshilov) which mounted a 76.2mm gun. Its sister variant the KV-2, although more unwieldly, did have a 15cm gun[actually its 15.2cm]...."
Operation Barbarossa 1941/ 42".
"An unpleasent surprise for the supremely confident Panzer troops was the quality of some of the Soviet equipments they soon faced.
On the Second Day of the Campaign, in the 6th Panzer Division sector, 12 German supply trucks were knocked out, one after the other, by a solitary unidentified Soviet heavy tank. The vehicle sat astride the road south of the River Dubysa near Rossieny. Further beyond, two German combat teams had already established bridgeheads on the other side of the river. They were about to be engaged in the first major tank battle of the eastern campaign. Their urgent resupply requirements had already been destroyed. Rutted muddy approaches and a nearby forest infested with bands of stay-behind Russian infantry negated any option to bypass. The Russian tank had to be eliminated. A battery of medium 50mm German anti-tank guns was sent forward to force the route.
The guns were skilfully manhandled by their crews through close terrain up to within 600m of their intended target. Three red-hot tracer-based sheks spat out at 823m/ sec, smacking into the tank with rapid and resounding 'plunks' one after the other. At first there was cheering but the crews became concerned as these and another five rounds spun majestically into the air as they ricocheted off the armour of the unknown tank type. Its turret came to life and remorselesly traversed in their direction. Within minutes the entire battery was silenced by a lethal succession of 76mm HE shecks that tore into them. Casualties were heavy.
Meanwhile a well cammoflaged 88mm Flak gun carefully crept forward, slowly towed by its half-track tractor, winding its way among cover provided by the 12 burnt-out German trucks strewn about the road. It got to within 900m of the Soviet tank before a further 76mm round spat out, spinning the gun into a roadside ditch. The crew, caught in the act of manhandling the trails into position, were mown down by a swathe of coaxial machine gun fire. Every sheck fired by the Russian tank appeared to be a strike. Nothing moved until nightfall when, under the cover of darkness, it was safe enought to recover the dead and wounded and salvage some of the knocked out equipments.
An inconclusive raid was mounted that night by assault engineers who managed to attatch two demolition charges onto this still, as yet, unidentified tank type. Both charges exploded, but retaliatory turret fire confirmed the tank was still in action. Three attacks had failed. Dive-bomber support was requested but not available. A fourth attack plan was developed involving a further 88mm Flak gun, supported this time by light Panzers which were to feint and provide covering fire in a co-ordinated daylight operation.
Panzers, utilizing tree cover, skirmished forward and began to engage the solitary tank from three directions. This confused the Russian tank which, in attempting to duel with these fast-moving and fleeting targets, was struck in the rear by the newly positioned 88mm Flak gun. Three rounds bore into the hull at over 1,000m/sec. The turret traversed rearward and stopped. There was no sign of an explosion or fire so a further four rounds smashed remorselesly into the apparently helpless target. Spent ricochets spun white-hot to the ground followed by the metallic signatures of direct impacts. Unexpectedly the Soviet gun barrel abruptly jerked skyward. With the engagement over at last, the nearest German troops moved forward to inspect their victim.
Excited and chattering they clambered aboard the armoured colossus. They had never seen such a tank before. Suddenly the turret began to rotate again and the soldiers frantically scattered. Two engineers had the presence of mind to drop two stick grenades into the interior of the tank, through one of the holes pierced by the shot at the base of the turret. Muffled explosions followed and the turret hatch clattered open with an exhalation of smoke. Peering inside the assualt engineers could just make out the mutilated remains of the crew. This single tank had blocked forward replenishment to the 6th Panzer Division vanguard for 48 hours. Only two 88mm shecks actually penetrated the armour; five others had gouged deep dents. Eight carbonised blue marks were the only indication of 50mm gun impacts. There was no trace at all of the supporting Panzer strikes, many of which had clearly been seen to hit.
The nature of the enemy armoured threat had irretrievably altered. General Halder wrote in his diary that night: 'New heavy enemy tank!...a new feature in the sectors of Army Group South and Army Group North is the new heavy Russian tanks, reportedly to be armed with 8cm guns and, according to another but untrustworthy observation from Army Group North, even 15cm guns'
This was the KV-1 (Klim Voroshilov) which mounted a 76.2mm gun. Its sister variant the KV-2, although more unwieldly, did have a 15cm gun[actually its 15.2cm]...."
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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No, the TIGER was a pre-Barbarossa project.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tiger.htm
T-34 gave additional impetus to produce it ASAP.
So it was begun several MONTHS before Barbarossa, but the KV-1 andOn May 26th of 1941, during the meeting concerning the development of new weaponry, Adolf Hitler ordered both Dr.Porsche and Henschel to supply their designs for a heavy tank, which was to be ready in the summer of 1942. Krupp was in charge of supplying main armament and producing turrets for designs by both Henschel and Porsche. The project was known as the "Tigerprogram"
T-34 gave additional impetus to produce it ASAP.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Nope. THIS is one of HIS wetdreams:David wrote:Sounds like one of Pablo's wetdreams.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Yeah, sure. And you pee yourself watching the Animal Planet. Nyah nyah nyahDavid wrote:Sounds like one of Pablo's wetdreams.
*drool*MKSheppard wrote:Nope. THIS is one of HIS wetdreams:
Too bad about the IS-3's reliability and poor welding. Or is that a rumor? I forget.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
If I remeber the only think I've ever heard about the Stalin was acutal from Clancy in "Red Storm Rising" From his comments VIA Soviet Tank Troopers it was slow, Clumsy, and akward, very hard to move around and when at half-throttle it moved about as fast as it did at standstill
Moblie Bunker I've also heard it called, Indicating roughly how fast it could move and turn
Moblie Bunker I've also heard it called, Indicating roughly how fast it could move and turn
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
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Yeah, well, IMO Clancy sucks. He's too technical and incredibly biased against the bad guys. The IS series is probably the best heavy tanks series ever produced, because they combined powerful weaponry, thick armor, and cheap production in a small package. The IS-3 was not a rocket, but it was deadly effective when used correctly.Mr Bean wrote:If I remeber the only think I've ever heard about the Stalin was acutal from Clancy in "Red Storm Rising" From his comments VIA Soviet Tank Troopers it was slow, Clumsy, and akward, very hard to move around and when at half-throttle it moved about as fast as it did at standstill
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
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Fuck Clancy. Just because he wears a U.S. Navy baseball cap does not make him an expert on Soviet tanks. The IS series was such an effective series of tanks that they are still in use today and the Israeli army found the IS-2 hard to kill as of the 1970s! The IS-2 could take on a Tiger head-to-head except that the IS-2 cost about half as much to produce. They were excellent "heavy breakthrough" tanks and perform(ed) admirably in that role.Mr Bean wrote:If I remeber the only think I've ever heard about the Stalin was acutal from Clancy in "Red Storm Rising" From his comments VIA Soviet Tank Troopers it was slow, Clumsy, and akward, very hard to move around and when at half-throttle it moved about as fast as it did at standstill
Moblie Bunker I've also heard it called, Indicating roughly how fast it could move and turn
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I think I heard about some kind of engagement between Israeli M60s (or was it M48s?) and about half as many Syrian IS tanks. The Syrians had dug-in positions and were assaulted by the Israelis. It resulted in a complete slaughter of Israeli tanks.Doomriser wrote:Fuck Clancy. Just because he wears a U.S. Navy baseball cap does not make him an expert on Soviet tanks. The IS series was such an effective series of tanks that they are still in use today and the Israeli army found the IS-2 hard to kill as of the 1970s!
I maintain that the IS-series was the best tank of WWII in terms of blowing shit up.The IS-2 could take on a Tiger head-to-head except that the IS-2 cost about half as much to produce. They were excellent "heavy breakthrough" tanks and perform(ed) admirably in that role.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
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Stalin? HAH!
"On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg stood a further
11 Stalin tanks, and away on the egde of the village itself were
around 120-150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled
and re- armed. I opened fire and destroyed first and last of
the 11 Stalin tanks on the road....My own personal score of
enemy tanks destroyed in this action was 39."
SS-Hauptscharführer Karl Körner,
schwere SS Panzer Abteilung (103) 503 / III SS Panzer Corps,
East Germany, April of 1945.
....
There are no records or photographs to prove that the Tiger II's
frontal armor was ever penetrated in combat. Its side armor was
easier to penetrate by existing Allied armor (e.g. Sherman
Firefly, T-34/85, JS-II).
...
German comparison of German tanks with the new (at the time)
Russian T-34/85 and JS-II (122mm), from March 23rd of 1944,
stated that: "The Tiger 2 is far superior to the T34-85 and the
JS 122."
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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The IS-3 near my house....
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunke ... armor.html
Aberdeen Proving Grounds, MD
The Tanks outside are in SHIT condition. The Army makes no attempt
to protect them.
ANZIO ANNIE is there........
As is.......
ATOMIC ANNIE!
I got to touch the vehicle Marina O'Leary had me make famous in
FIST OF THE EMPIRE!, WHOO HOO!
OFFICIAL SITE:
http://www.ordmusfound.org/
Aberdeen Proving Grounds, MD
The Tanks outside are in SHIT condition. The Army makes no attempt
to protect them.
ANZIO ANNIE is there........
As is.......
ATOMIC ANNIE!
I got to touch the vehicle Marina O'Leary had me make famous in
FIST OF THE EMPIRE!, WHOO HOO!
OFFICIAL SITE:
http://www.ordmusfound.org/
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
- MKSheppard
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Heavy Tanks of the JS Series
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Funny thing you should bring up Battlefield.ru. Before they revamped their site (or maybe it was on a similar Russian site) I read a great account of how a number of IS-2s were dug into haystacks to meet onrushing German heavy tanks. The IS-2s opened fire with complete surprise and destroyed the Tigers, etc... at 800 yards. The IS series had been given the nickname "Animal Killer" for its ability to kill Tigers, Panthers, Elephants, etc...
And as for the German tank "Ace," give me a break. The Germans typically exxagerated their kills as a matter of routine in comparison to the Allies.
And as for the German tank "Ace," give me a break. The Germans typically exxagerated their kills as a matter of routine in comparison to the Allies.
"Our companies opened fire from 700 meters. We got closer and closer, but it didn't disturb the enemy. Soon we were only about 50-100 meters from each other. A fantastic engagegment opened up - without any German progress. The Soviet tanks continued their advance and our armor-piercing projectiles simply bounced off. The Soviet tanks withstood point-blank range fire from both our 50mm and 75mm guns. A KW-2 (KV-2) was hit more than 70 times, and not a single round penetrated. A very few of the Soviet tanks were immobilized and eventually also destroyed as we managed to shoot at their tracks, and then eventually bringed up the artillery to hammer them at close range. Sturmpioniere then attacked by foot with satchel charges."
- A courier in the 1st Panzer Division of the 4th Panzergruppe, Raseiniai (Lithuania), June 23rd 1941.
IS/JS II
The Joseph Stalin II tank was a heavy tank by Western standards, though it was comparable to the Panther tank in terms of weight, size, and cost. It carried a 122 mm field howitzer which proved effective against German armour. 3,483 IS I and II tanks were manufactured.
"When the Ioseph Stalin tank was tested in 1943 its armor piercing projectile penetrated the frontal armour of a German "Panther" tank at a distance of 1500 meters. The projectile's energy was so great that it not only penetrated the frontal armour but continued through another armour plate, the transmission, and finally blew away the back end of the tank. The back end landed a few meters away."
http://members.tripod.com/~ViktoRus/index.html
- A courier in the 1st Panzer Division of the 4th Panzergruppe, Raseiniai (Lithuania), June 23rd 1941.
IS/JS II
The Joseph Stalin II tank was a heavy tank by Western standards, though it was comparable to the Panther tank in terms of weight, size, and cost. It carried a 122 mm field howitzer which proved effective against German armour. 3,483 IS I and II tanks were manufactured.
"When the Ioseph Stalin tank was tested in 1943 its armor piercing projectile penetrated the frontal armour of a German "Panther" tank at a distance of 1500 meters. The projectile's energy was so great that it not only penetrated the frontal armour but continued through another armour plate, the transmission, and finally blew away the back end of the tank. The back end landed a few meters away."
http://members.tripod.com/~ViktoRus/index.html
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Logical Fallacies of the 122mm Howitzer as a tank gun.
The Tiger II defeated by Haystacks here:
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 1;t=023372
*****************
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 1;t=023140
Grognardly thread:
The 122mm gun was chosen for the IS-2 after firing tests against captured Panthers, and the Russians were quite upset during the Panther-vs-IS-2 combats when 122mm AP always bounced off the glacis beyond 700 meters, and usually ricocheted at all ranges.
The Russians were looking into improvements to the 122mm AP ammo when 122mm AP started to improve against Panther glacis during the summer of 1944 (due to more brittle glacis armor as a result of alloy rationing, according to Russian speculation on the subject).
The performance of 122mm AP against the Panther front was a major problem for the Russians for many months, which suggests that IS-2 tanks were expected to take on Panthers and defeat them with armor piercing rounds. If 1/3 of the 122mm ammo load is AP or APBC, that's about 10 rounds.
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 1;t=023372
*****************
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 1;t=023140
Grognardly thread:
The 122mm gun was chosen for the IS-2 after firing tests against captured Panthers, and the Russians were quite upset during the Panther-vs-IS-2 combats when 122mm AP always bounced off the glacis beyond 700 meters, and usually ricocheted at all ranges.
The Russians were looking into improvements to the 122mm AP ammo when 122mm AP started to improve against Panther glacis during the summer of 1944 (due to more brittle glacis armor as a result of alloy rationing, according to Russian speculation on the subject).
The performance of 122mm AP against the Panther front was a major problem for the Russians for many months, which suggests that IS-2 tanks were expected to take on Panthers and defeat them with armor piercing rounds. If 1/3 of the 122mm ammo load is AP or APBC, that's about 10 rounds.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Debate on that 122mm AP knocking out the engine of a panther....
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 1;t=023485
[moved pix to a more approp thread than WW2 tank guns]
The Panther - kubinka story has been adapted and changed in various books since the event. The only fact that remains is K.E.Voroshilov nearly having is head blown of with the muzzlebrake accident.
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 1;t=023485
[moved pix to a more approp thread than WW2 tank guns]
The Panther - kubinka story has been adapted and changed in various books since the event. The only fact that remains is K.E.Voroshilov nearly having is head blown of with the muzzlebrake accident.
It’s amusing how events change over the years to glorify what happened. The front glacis- engine out the back, makes a much better story that the measly 40mm side turret.From Red Steel "IS-2 development"
"The JS-122 (Object #240) passed the Government tests quickly and successfully. Thereafter, the tank was moved to one of the Moscow military testing grounds where it was demonstrated to K.E.Voroshilov.
The tank's 122 mm gun was fired from 1500 metres at a captured German Panther tank.
The round hit the SIDE of the Panther's TURRET, penetrating it cleanly and tearing the opposite side out at the welded seams, throwing it back a few metres. During these tests the muzzle brake of the A-19 blew up almost killing Voroshilov. After this accident it was decided to change the muzzle brake to a 2-chamber design similar
to that used by the Germans."
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Ok I drop the Clancy thin I was just mentiong the only thing I had ever heard of the Stalin outside of #^@#^ Cool! was a few complaints on its manverability so I was just making an observation of an off-hand comment I had heard repeated a few times awhile back
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
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T-34 Spalling.......
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 1;t=024815
From the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, the Soviet government was faced with the enourmous problem of evacuating countless indistrial enterprises from the country's western regions to its eastern regions. The relocated defense plants, as the chairman of the Council of Ministers [J.V. Stalin] reported,"began production at their new sites some seven or eight months later. This [lapse in production] has led to a weakening of our defense capability and has placed the Soviet Union in mortal dnager."
The Red Army's failures during the initial period of the war allowed the enemy to capture a number of mineral-rich regions of Ukraine and Belorussia. As a result of the Soviets' having lost control of these regions, a complicated situation developed in the plants that manufactured the armor for their tanks. Because these factories had recieved insufficient quantities of some of the smelted metals required to ensure the necessary toughness of armor, the armor plate they produced turned out to be somewhat brittle in its composition - and, of course, there were negative consequences on the battlefield.
...
The T-34s assembled with this defective armor arrived as equipment for units of 45th Brigade, 4th Tank Corps, in June 1942. They were brand-new tanks, just of the assembly line, still bearing factory paint.
The brittle-armored tanks of the brigade fought their first battle in the defense of Voronezh the month following their delivery. It was a fierce engagement with the enemy. Almost immediately the unit commander had begun to recieve radio messages with strange contents. Despite the failure of enemy shells to penetrate the T-34 tanks' armor, crew members were being wounded inside their turrets, primarily in the exposed areas of the body- the hands and arms, the face, and, in the case of some commander-gunners, the eyes.
With the first lull in the battle, the Soviet troops began to investigate these mysterious wounds. It soon became clear to them that the steep slope angle of the t-34 turret's exterior surfaces was allowing enemy solid-shot rounds generally to ricochet when they struck that area. But when such a round did indeed hit the turret's outer wall, pieces of the tank's armor itself flew off the inner wall at extremely high velocities- a rate that seemed to vary according to the kinetic energy of round at the monemt of impact. In general, if the enemy round struck on the left side of the tank, the commander-gunner- whose crew position closest to the left inner wall of the turret- was being injured by the fragmenting armor of the vehicle wall. If the round hit on the right side, the armor spalling was striking the loader, whose crew position was on that side. The size of the fragments ranged from microscopic to several millimeters in diameter.
...
This serious deficiency in the combat worthiness of the T-34 was finally eliminated in early 1943. It was the tankers of the older generation- soldiers and officers who had gone through training before the Great Patriotic War and come into the active army in the first months of that conflict- who experienced the situation firsthand.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
- Pablo Sanchez
- Commissar
- Posts: 6998
- Joined: 2002-07-03 05:41pm
- Location: The Wasteland
Sheppard, every weapon of war has teething troubles. Need I bring up the notorious tendency of the Third Reich to jump the gun and bring new tanks into service too soon? The 122mm was able to kill German heavy tanks well enough within a few months of entering service--and anyway the Panther itself had trouble killing the IS-2 at normal engagement ranges.
It is my opinion that most German tank aces are far overrated. It is documented that German tankers were over-optimistic in recording their kills. Oftentimes they would report enemy tanks that were merely immobilized or damaged as kills, and many of them would claim the same tank as a victory. This lead to a number of myths, most importantly by inflating Soviet numerical superiority (they would count a tank as dead, then it would appear in battle a few days later, so they counted it as a new one) and losses.
And it is unfair to directly compare the battlefield performance of the King Tiger to the IS-2, or indeed any other tank of that era. The fact that it outweighs the IS-2 by more than 20 tons skews that analysis a bit. It is also worth noting that the King Tiger was vastly more expensive and time consuming to produce.
It is my opinion that most German tank aces are far overrated. It is documented that German tankers were over-optimistic in recording their kills. Oftentimes they would report enemy tanks that were merely immobilized or damaged as kills, and many of them would claim the same tank as a victory. This lead to a number of myths, most importantly by inflating Soviet numerical superiority (they would count a tank as dead, then it would appear in battle a few days later, so they counted it as a new one) and losses.
And it is unfair to directly compare the battlefield performance of the King Tiger to the IS-2, or indeed any other tank of that era. The fact that it outweighs the IS-2 by more than 20 tons skews that analysis a bit. It is also worth noting that the King Tiger was vastly more expensive and time consuming to produce.
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
- Pablo Sanchez
- Commissar
- Posts: 6998
- Joined: 2002-07-03 05:41pm
- Location: The Wasteland
I'm pretty sure that was the SU-152 (my second favorite assault gun of WWII), not the IS. The SU-152 is fucking badass! I saw a nice video clip of one rolling through Berlin on the History channel. It stopped, rotated in place, and then fired a shot at a tenement or something. The whole front of the building came apart and tumbled down.Doomriser wrote:The IS series had been given the nickname "Animal Killer" for its ability to kill Tigers, Panthers, Elephants, etc...
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
- MKSheppard
- Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
- Posts: 29842
- Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm
Penetration Ranges...
SURVIVABILITY ON THE BATTLEFIELD:
Along with the extremely effective main gun, a major asset of the Panther was the thick frontal armor. However, the sides and rear were vulnerable to attack from most tank guns including the American 75mm and the Russian 76mm tank guns at long ranges. The tables extracted from a Wa Pruef 1 report dated 5 October 1944 relate the relative ability of some the major opponents to penetrate the Panther and vica versa as shown in the following Penetration Range Table(s). The penetration ranges were determined based on the assumption that the tanks stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round.
PENETRATION RANGE: PANTHER vs T34/85 AND JS 122
Panther 7.5 cm Kw.K. penetrates T34/85 up to: 2000m (Front Turret) 1200m (Mantlet) 300m (Glacis) 300m (Nose) 2700m (Side Turret) 2900m (Super) 3500m+ (Side Hull) 3300m (Rear Turret) 2300m (Rear Hull).
T34/85 85mm S53 penetrates Panther up to: 500m (Front Turret) 0 m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 0 m (Nose) 3400m (Side Turret) 2400m (Super) 3500m + (Side Hull) 3400m (Rear Turret) 3400m (Rear Hull).
Panther 7.5 Kw.K. penetrates JS 122 up to: 800m (Front Turret) 400m (Mantlet) 600m (Glacis) 1000m (Nose) 1600m (Side Turret) 1600m (Super) 2000m (Side Hull) 400m (Rear Turret) 1000m (Rear Hull)
JS 122 122mm A19 penetrates Panther up to: 1500m (Front Turret) 500m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 100m (Nose) 3500m+ (Side Turret) 3500m+ (Super) 3500m+ (Side Hull) 3500m+ (Rear Turret) 3500m+ (Rear Hull)
PENETRATION RANGE: PANTHER vs SHERMAN A4 AND CHURCHILL
Panther 7.5 cm Kw.K. penetrates Sherman A4 up to: 2500m (Front Turret) 1000m (Mantlet) 100m (Glacis) 2800m (Nose) 3500m+ (Side Turret) 3500m+ (Super) 3500m+ (Side Hull) 3500m +(Rear Turret) 3500m+ (Rear Hull).
Sherman A4 76mm M1A1 penetrates Panther up to: 700m (Front Turret) 100m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 0 m (Nose) 3500m+ (Side Turret) 2800m (Super) 3500m + (Side Hull) 3500m+ (Rear Turret) 3500m +(Rear Hull).
Panther 7.5 Kw.K. penetrates Churchill up to: 2000m (Front Turret) 2000m (Mantlet) 1700m (Glacis) 1700m (Nose) 2000m (Side Turret) 3000m (Super) 3000m (Side Hull) 2800m (Rear Turret) 3500m+ (Rear Hull).
Churchill 75mm M3 penetrates Panther up to: 0 m (Front Turret) 0 m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 0 m (Nose) 1500m (Side Turret) 400m (Super) 2600m (Side Hull) 1500m (Rear Turret) 1500m (Rear Hull).
Note: The Glacis is also known as the Driver’s Front Plate
In addition, lucky hits on the lower half of the original gun Mantlet sometimes deflected downward, occasionally defeating the 16mm deck plate over the driver and radio operator. The data shows that, in a frontal attack , even the upgunned Russian T34/85 only stood a chance of penetrating the frontal armor by hitting the very small target presented by the the turret front of the Panther. Based on Penetration ranges, without consideration of numerous other factors, the Panther outclassed all common opponents tanks and was only matched by the the Russian heavy Josef Stalin with the 122mm gun.
Along with the extremely effective main gun, a major asset of the Panther was the thick frontal armor. However, the sides and rear were vulnerable to attack from most tank guns including the American 75mm and the Russian 76mm tank guns at long ranges. The tables extracted from a Wa Pruef 1 report dated 5 October 1944 relate the relative ability of some the major opponents to penetrate the Panther and vica versa as shown in the following Penetration Range Table(s). The penetration ranges were determined based on the assumption that the tanks stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round.
PENETRATION RANGE: PANTHER vs T34/85 AND JS 122
Panther 7.5 cm Kw.K. penetrates T34/85 up to: 2000m (Front Turret) 1200m (Mantlet) 300m (Glacis) 300m (Nose) 2700m (Side Turret) 2900m (Super) 3500m+ (Side Hull) 3300m (Rear Turret) 2300m (Rear Hull).
T34/85 85mm S53 penetrates Panther up to: 500m (Front Turret) 0 m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 0 m (Nose) 3400m (Side Turret) 2400m (Super) 3500m + (Side Hull) 3400m (Rear Turret) 3400m (Rear Hull).
Panther 7.5 Kw.K. penetrates JS 122 up to: 800m (Front Turret) 400m (Mantlet) 600m (Glacis) 1000m (Nose) 1600m (Side Turret) 1600m (Super) 2000m (Side Hull) 400m (Rear Turret) 1000m (Rear Hull)
JS 122 122mm A19 penetrates Panther up to: 1500m (Front Turret) 500m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 100m (Nose) 3500m+ (Side Turret) 3500m+ (Super) 3500m+ (Side Hull) 3500m+ (Rear Turret) 3500m+ (Rear Hull)
PENETRATION RANGE: PANTHER vs SHERMAN A4 AND CHURCHILL
Panther 7.5 cm Kw.K. penetrates Sherman A4 up to: 2500m (Front Turret) 1000m (Mantlet) 100m (Glacis) 2800m (Nose) 3500m+ (Side Turret) 3500m+ (Super) 3500m+ (Side Hull) 3500m +(Rear Turret) 3500m+ (Rear Hull).
Sherman A4 76mm M1A1 penetrates Panther up to: 700m (Front Turret) 100m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 0 m (Nose) 3500m+ (Side Turret) 2800m (Super) 3500m + (Side Hull) 3500m+ (Rear Turret) 3500m +(Rear Hull).
Panther 7.5 Kw.K. penetrates Churchill up to: 2000m (Front Turret) 2000m (Mantlet) 1700m (Glacis) 1700m (Nose) 2000m (Side Turret) 3000m (Super) 3000m (Side Hull) 2800m (Rear Turret) 3500m+ (Rear Hull).
Churchill 75mm M3 penetrates Panther up to: 0 m (Front Turret) 0 m (Mantlet) 0 m (Glacis) 0 m (Nose) 1500m (Side Turret) 400m (Super) 2600m (Side Hull) 1500m (Rear Turret) 1500m (Rear Hull).
Note: The Glacis is also known as the Driver’s Front Plate
In addition, lucky hits on the lower half of the original gun Mantlet sometimes deflected downward, occasionally defeating the 16mm deck plate over the driver and radio operator. The data shows that, in a frontal attack , even the upgunned Russian T34/85 only stood a chance of penetrating the frontal armor by hitting the very small target presented by the the turret front of the Panther. Based on Penetration ranges, without consideration of numerous other factors, the Panther outclassed all common opponents tanks and was only matched by the the Russian heavy Josef Stalin with the 122mm gun.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944