[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[SirNitram]

Someone pulled out the 'It's magic, therefore invincible' bit? Okay, look at that, the Fantasy mod sends this where it belongs.

I really do hate the 'Magic == INFINITY!' bullshit.

[SirNitram]

ignore him. He won't listen that the sw rpg is at best fanfictioon.

Apparently, it's highly respected fanfiction, because Lucasfilm accepts it as part of continuity. The same cannot be said of the crap you're trying to peddle here.

I don't care if a bit of fluff comes from a napkin; if it's approved by the appropriate folks as part of continuity, it's in. Whether we should view it as in-universe publications(Several RPG supplments took the form of Rebel documents, to use SWRPG as an example, therefore casting suspicion on the accuracy) or what is another matter; but if it's in continuity or not is not the decision of fanboys.

Ali, you have had your hand held on this before. Too many times. Shape up or ship out.

[Lord Revan]

while SW:EU (especially the games) aren't the best quality (story wise) as Lucasfilm says that the fluff is canon, it is canon simple as that.

[Stark]

Don't let them sidetrack the thread: this is about Juggernaut being a wholesale no limits fallacy. He's more invincible than god, apparently, and no numbers are needed for this. Every time Juggy got beat it was 'luck', and his 'impregable' armour must have gone away for a few seconds.

[SirNitram]

Don't let them sidetrack the thread: this is about Juggernaut being a wholesale no limits fallacy. He's more invincible than god, apparently, and no numbers are needed for this. Every time Juggy got beat it was 'luck', and his 'impregable' armour must have gone away for a few seconds.

With luck, my wholesale flushing as opposed to surgical splitting will carry the message that the whole shitpile is rotten.

[ali-sama]

Alright. My patience is gone. Justify your claims or face a one-way trip down. That was the last chance, Ali-sama.

if you wish. but you have to appologize for the name calling etc.
here are my claims and proof.

I think the burden of proof here is on you, Ali. The RPG might say that the Juggernaut is as tough as full-power Galactus, but have we ever seen anything in the comics that proves this?

AFAIK, the answer to that is no. We have, however, seen the Juggernaut staggered by blows from the Hulk

never was dammaged or hurt. Being pushed back due to a massivly strong punch, which can level mountains, no matter how durable you are. will make you stagger.

fight with hulk. please read it.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune ... _Hulk.html
Hulk did not beat him nor did he hurt him.

and Thor

Thor used god magic to nullify jug's powers, and that is why he got a good punch in. THough jug did deck him with 1 punch.

First fight with thor. please read.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune ... Thor1.html
thor ran away.

second fight with thor
please read.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune ... Thor2.html
this passage prooves my point.

Thor dodges and The Juggernaut's punch hits the wall. The next panel Thor is somehow now standing several yards from The Juggernaut and unleashes some kind of beam from Mjolnir. Thinking it just another of Thor's useless attacks The Juggernaut chides him for a wasted effort. Thor explained that the blast was to discern the nature of Cain's incredible power. The beam told Thor that it was mystical. Thor then threw Mjolnir which flew by Juggernaut's head and ended up flying out of a castle window. After making fun of Thor's aim The Juggernaut advanced upon the unarmed Thor but the purpose of his "inaccurate" toss of Mjolnir would soon become shockingly clear to Cain. Thor had sent Mjolnir circling the castle to negate all mystical energy. This wiped out The Juggernaut's invulnerabilty and forcefield which Cain found out the hard way when a crisp Thor right cross hit him in the face so hard it tore up his helmet and knocked him for a loop.

Still stunned at suddenly being vulnerable and touchable The Juggernaut renews his attack regardless. The Mjolnir cyclone obviously couldn't negate ALL of The Juggernaut's mystic energy as The Juggernaut still had an immense amount of strength left and puts Thor down and on the ropes with just one punch. Seeing The Juggernaut's next crushing and perhaps finishing blow coming at him Thor musters enough strength to dodge and go on the offensive.

.

and cut by Shatterstar's swords.

Though, your failing to see the circumstances.

Shatterstar and the rest of X-Force, along with Spiderman, had encountered Juggernaut in X-Force #4, where Juggernaut and Black Tom Cassidy had captured one of the twin towers of the World Trade Center and held the people there hostage. In a team-up, Shatterstar was able to cut Juggernaut's helmet loose because his sword was forged in a dimension of magic and science. Just as he and the rest of the team were about to advance on him, Juggernaut was teleported away.

this was at the time both cain an tom shared the power of the juggernaught.
His strength and power where less then 1/2 of what it was when he alone controlled the power(according to cain).

the fight is featured here
http://www.leaderslair.com/marvelvillai ... naut3.html
read this page also.
http://www.geocities.com/x_villains/jug ... rnaut.html

People Who Think He's Not So Bad: Cain is utterly devoted (well, as utterly devoted as bad guys get) to his best friend, Black Tom Cassidy, even once trying to share the power of the Ruby of Cyttorak with Tom (Marvel Team-Up 150. As it happened, Tom didn't like being so powerful). Tom's relative, Siryn of X-Force, still has a soft spot for ol' Juggy, despite feeling the need to try and knock his block off every now and again. Fortunately, Cain doesn't take that sort of thing too personally. Juggernaut also got along fairly well with his Exiles comrades in the Ultraverse before finding his way back to the Marvel Universe (although since that whole Ultraverse thing apparently Didn't Really Happen, I guess we can't count that).

When have we ever seen the same happen to Galactus when he was at full power?

If you can show an example from the comics of Juggernaut (and ONLY Juggernaut, not other characters that the RPG says are the same level as him) shrugging off teraton-level blasts, I'll retract my statement. But so far you haven't, and that's what's annoying people here.

[SirNitram]

Alright. My patience is gone. Justify your claims or face a one-way trip down. That was the last chance, Ali-sama.

if you wish. but you have to appologize for the name calling etc.

No. I don't. I have handled you with kid gloves because I was giving you a chance. A simple reminder: I owe no one here any chances, repreives, or favors.

Furthermore, I suggest you immediately review of our rules in the Announcements forum:

On this forum, it is considered perfectly acceptable to flame people simply for being dishonest or stupid, no matter how polite they are. I am aware that on most forums, stupidity or dishonesty alone are not considered grounds for flaming. However, those forums' rules do not apply here.

Others are less kind than me.

here are my claims and proof.

No numbers. Very few citations. Zero quantification. You are not a fresh-off-SB-Newbie. You have been here an extended period. You have had your hands held. The patience is dying.

[ali-sama]

what empire?

The only fucking Empire vaguely in the debate, the Starwars Galactic Empire.

I do hope you realize the empire was created after revenge of the sith at which point dokuu was dead. This fight takes place pre atack of the clones. Meaning, No FUCKING EMPIRE amd NO FUCKING CLONE ARMY. Get that through you head you FUCKING MORON.

it is magic not science.

It has been widely claimed that science should "not apply" at all to any subject involving fantasy. However, it has also been shown quite clearly that:
*snips irrelevent quote of a fucktard*

[/quote]

Magic is magic. science is magic.
Science is limited by our knowledge of physics, chemistrey etc.
Magic is limited by the spell caster's knoledge of the methaphysical relationships between reality and other realms/dimensions.
juggernaughts powers come from another dimension via the jewle of
Cyttorak.

read bout him here
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/cyttor.htm

[ali-sama]

ignore him. He won't listen that the sw rpg is at best fanfictioon.

Apparently, it's highly respected fanfiction, because Lucasfilm accepts it as part of continuity. The same cannot be said of the crap you're trying to peddle here.

I don't care if a bit of fluff comes from a napkin; if it's approved by the appropriate folks as part of continuity, it's in. Whether we should view it as in-universe publications(Several RPG supplments took the form of Rebel documents, to use SWRPG as an example, therefore casting suspicion on the accuracy) or what is another matter; but if it's in continuity or not is not the decision of fanboys.

Ali, you have had your hand held on this before. Too many times. Shape up or ship out.

I am using comic examples. unless your reading someone elses posts. i stopped referring to the rpg a while ago.

[ali-sama]

Alright. My patience is gone. Justify your claims or face a one-way trip down. That was the last chance, Ali-sama.

if you wish. but you have to appologize for the name calling etc.

No. I don't. I have handled you with kid gloves because I was giving you a chance. A simple reminder: I owe no one here any chances, repreives, or favors.

hmm.
Furthermore, I suggest you immediately review of our rules in the Announcements forum:

On this forum, it is considered perfectly acceptable to flame people simply for being dishonest or stupid, no matter how polite they are. I am aware that on most forums, stupidity or dishonesty alone are not considered grounds for flaming. However, those forums' rules do not apply here.

i cans till aks for one.

Others are less kind than me.

here are my claims and proof.

No numbers. Very few citations. Zero quantification. You are not a fresh-off-SB-Newbie. You have been here an extended period. You have had your hands held. The patience is dying.

[/quote]
what? are you reading the post? i provided proof for my rebuttles to him. you don't need numbers. He said juggernaught was hurt by the hulk and thor and was cut by some other fool. I showed him cannon proof of what happened. why do I even need numbers to do so?

[ali-sama]

And really to add another bit...it'd have to agree with canon. So yes, if the RPG made hard objective proof, people would use it the stats because then it's not arbitrary, so in other words how does this reflect upon using Marvel RPG stats?

Very poorly unless you care to demonstrate that Class 1000, Shift Z, or Amazing mean anything in SI units.

I dropped that argument. a while ago.

[SirNitram]

if you wish. but you have to appologize for the name calling etc.

No. I don't. I have handled you with kid gloves because I was giving you a chance. A simple reminder: I owe no one here any chances, repreives, or favors.

hmm.
Furthermore, I suggest you immediately review of our rules in the Announcements forum:

On this forum, it is considered perfectly acceptable to flame people simply for being dishonest or stupid, no matter how polite they are. I am aware that on most forums, stupidity or dishonesty alone are not considered grounds for flaming. However, those forums' rules do not apply here.

i cans till aks for one.

Others are less kind than me.

here are my claims and proof.

No numbers. Very few citations. Zero quantification. You are not a fresh-off-SB-Newbie. You have been here an extended period. You have had your hands held. The patience is dying.

what? are you reading the post? i provided proof for my rebuttles to him. you don't need numbers. He said juggernaught was hurt by the hulk and thor and was cut by some other fool. I showed him cannon proof of what happened. why do I even need numbers to do so?[/quote]

This is SDNet. You have been posting what amounts to a no-limits fallacy around Juggernaught. Either post proof of the abilities you claim for him relevent to the discussion, or shut the fuck up. Realize this will require citation, analyzation, quantification.

[ali-sama]

ignore him. He won't listen that the sw rpg is at best fanfictioon.

Apparently, it's highly respected fanfiction, because Lucasfilm accepts it as part of continuity. The same cannot be said of the crap you're trying to peddle here.

I don't care if a bit of fluff comes from a napkin; if it's approved by the appropriate folks as part of continuity, it's in. Whether we should view it as in-universe publications(Several RPG supplments took the form of Rebel documents, to use SWRPG as an example, therefore casting suspicion on the accuracy) or what is another matter; but if it's in continuity or not is not the decision of fanboys.

http://www.answers.com/topic/star-wars-canon

As of 2000, Lucas Licensing has appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron". As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years.

The Holocron is divided into 4 levels: G-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies, the scripts, the novelizations of the movies,and the radio plays. G-canon always overides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

C-canon is pretty much everything in the Expanded Universe; SW books, comics, and games. Games are a special case as generally only the stories are C-canon while things like stats and gameplay are N-canon.

S-canon is "secondary" canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is "non-canon". What-if stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game stats, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm.

Ali, you have had your hand held on this before. Too many times. Shape up or ship out.

*takes pin and puts in on Nitram;s shirt*
which reads.
"Fucktard who does not do his reasearch and cannot read"
rpg stats are NON cannon. I did nto say magic will overpwoer technology.
I just said his powers are dervived from magic.
good day.
ali

[ali-sama]

No. I don't. I have handled you with kid gloves because I was giving you a chance. A simple reminder: I owe no one here any chances, repreives, or favors.

hmm.
Furthermore, I suggest you immediately review of our rules in the Announcements forum:

On this forum, it is considered perfectly acceptable to flame people simply for being dishonest or stupid, no matter how polite they are. I am aware that on most forums, stupidity or dishonesty alone are not considered grounds for flaming. However, those forums' rules do not apply here.

i cans till aks for one.

Others are less kind than me.
No numbers. Very few citations. Zero quantification. You are not a fresh-off-SB-Newbie. You have been here an extended period. You have had your hands held. The patience is dying.

what? are you reading the post? i provided proof for my rebuttles to him. you don't need numbers. He said juggernaught was hurt by the hulk and thor and was cut by some other fool. I showed him cannon proof of what happened. why do I even need numbers to do so?

This is SDNet. You have been posting what amounts to a no-limits fallacy around Juggernaught. Either post proof of the abilities you claim for him relevent to the discussion, or shut the fuck up. Realize this will require citation, analyzation, quantification.[/quote]
when the fuck did I say no limits. I just put up evidence to disrpoove his points. No numbers where needed. I was not measuring his strengnth no was i measuring ho wmuch dammage he was taking. we where talkign about events which happend or did not happen. get that threough you fucking skull.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

*reads thread* Oh gods *head explodes*

BLOW IT UP!!!

[SirNitram]

Ali, you have had your hand held on this before. Too many times. Shape up or ship out.

*takes pin and puts in on Nitram;s shirt*
which reads.
"Fucktard who does not do his reasearch and cannot read"
rpg stats are NON cannon. I did nto say magic will overpwoer technology.
I just said his powers are dervived from magic.
good day.
ali

Fuck you, you self-righteous little brat. You start this thread with RPG stats, never concede publically, make heavily implied statements, then play rhetorical word games to say you didn't mean what was clearly stated.

when the fuck did I say no limits. I just put up evidence to disrpoove his points. No numbers where needed. I was not measuring his strengnth no was i measuring ho wmuch dammage he was taking. we where talkign about events which happend or did not happen. get that threough you fucking skull.

Get this through your skull: You said this:

what can cause a class 1000 force?

the shockwave of a 670 MegaTons (671,080,000 T)(2,80779872e+12) is class 1000, but shock wave alone is not enough. since the rest of the stats are much weaker.

an explosion, blast of 20 TeraTons (21,990,000,000,000 T) (2,80779872e+12 joules ) can do class 3000 shock wave and class 1000 fireball(no effect on 3000 shield) with radiation being weak,
anything that can hol that explosion in place can stop the jugernaut eaisly.

now. juggernaught has a shield around him. which is class 3000.
you woudl need a fire blast of at least 3000 with radiantion and shock wave high enough to hurt/kill him.

we get
5 ExaTons (5,764,500,000,000,000,000 T) (2.4118668e+28 joules)
CL 5000 (Shockwave)(definalty penetrate shield)
CL 3000 (Fireball)(hurt shield)
CL 1000 (Radiation)(no effect)

Looks like you're doing more than replying to one man's comments, huh, fucktard. Get on topic, and start backing up your shit. Immediately.

[Stark]

Ewww, Ein-goo all over our troll bashing... go back to your damn gay agenda you!

[ali-sama]

Someone pulled out the 'It's magic, therefore invincible' bit? Okay, look at that, the Fantasy mod sends this where it belongs.

I really do hate the 'Magic == INFINITY!' bullshit.

are you talking about gg's quote of another thread?
I hope you realize he was not quoting me. I think the

Science and Logic in Fantasy wrote:

would give it away.
or are you talking about me saying" it's magic not science"
i was refering to his powers. I did not fuckign say that his magic woudl make him invunrable. Marvel did that. Even when iw as using the rpg crap I admitted you can kill him. get your facts right.

[Grasscutter]

I think the burden of proof here is on you, Ali. The RPG might say that the Juggernaut is as tough as full-power Galactus, but have we ever seen anything in the comics that proves this?

AFAIK, the answer to that is no. We have, however, seen the Juggernaut staggered by blows from the Hulk

never was dammaged or hurt. Being pushed back due to a massivly strong punch, which can level mountains, no matter how durable you are. will make you stagger.

Juggernaut sure looks like he's feeling that punch from the Hulk in that picture that Meest posted. But I'll admit that's open to interpretation, and I cannot show any examples of the Hulk knocking out Juggernaut so I'll concede this.

HOWEVER, you still have not shown any evidence to back up your primary claim that Juggernaut can withstand teraton-level explosions or take the same level of punishment Galactus can. And that's what everybody in the thread has been asking you to do. The Hulk and Thor aren't dishing out teraton-level punches, so while it's impressive that Juggernaut can take their attacks it is not sufficient evidence to prove your argument.

[ali-sama]

Ali, you have had your hand held on this before. Too many times. Shape up or ship out.

*takes pin and puts in on Nitram;s shirt*
which reads.
"Fucktard who does not do his reasearch and cannot read"
rpg stats are NON cannon. I did nto say magic will overpwoer technology.
I just said his powers are dervived from magic.
good day.
ali

Fuck you, you self-righteous little brat. You start this thread with RPG stats, never concede publically, make heavily implied statements, then play rhetorical word games to say you didn't mean what was clearly stated.

I posted them yes. I stopped using them when i started debating.
I also consistanly said I am not using the rpg...

when the fuck did I say no limits. I just put up evidence to disrpoove his points. No numbers where needed. I was not measuring his strengnth no was i measuring ho wmuch dammage he was taking. we where talkign about events which happend or did not happen. get that threough you fucking skull.

Get this through your skull: You said this:

*snip rpg crap*
Looks like you're doing more than replying to one man's comments, huh, fucktard. Get on topic, and start backing up your shit. Immediately.

ok. YOu take somthing which i clearly put up to proove how wank fest you can get with juggernaut. I put that in my opener.

ok then. As you wish.
So everyone knows this part of the talk will be a wankfest. I will use the high end values for juggernaught. i am doing it just to show how wankfest jug can get

I did that to show how stupid wankfests can be. why else woudl i say it's a wankfest. meaning i am not posting it seriosly. also this had nothing to do with the events discussed.

[SirNitram]

*takes pin and puts in on Nitram;s shirt*
which reads.
"Fucktard who does not do his reasearch and cannot read"
rpg stats are NON cannon. I did nto say magic will overpwoer technology.
I just said his powers are dervived from magic.
good day.
ali

Fuck you, you self-righteous little brat. You start this thread with RPG stats, never concede publically, make heavily implied statements, then play rhetorical word games to say you didn't mean what was clearly stated.

I posted them yes. I stopped using them when i started debating.
I also consistanly said I am not using the rpg...

Only when called on it. Which is very dishonest.

when the fuck did I say no limits. I just put up evidence to disrpoove his points. No numbers where needed. I was not measuring his strengnth no was i measuring ho wmuch dammage he was taking. we where talkign about events which happend or did not happen. get that threough you fucking skull.

Get this through your skull: You said this:

*snip rpg crap*
Looks like you're doing more than replying to one man's comments, huh, fucktard. Get on topic, and start backing up your shit. Immediately.

ok. YOu take somthing which i clearly put up to proove how wank fest you can get with juggernaut. I put that in my opener.

Are you this stupid? You make a claim then act surprised when people challenge it? Are you simply inbred?

ok then. As you wish.
So everyone knows this part of the talk will be a wankfest. I will use the high end values for juggernaught. i am doing it just to show how wankfest jug can get

I did that to show how stupid wankfests can be. why else woudl i say it's a wankfest. meaning i am not posting it seriosly. also this had nothing to do with the events discussed.

Then don't fucking post it.

[mr friendly guy]

Don't let them sidetrack the thread: this is about Juggernaut being a wholesale no limits fallacy. He's more invincible than god, apparently, and no numbers are needed for this. Every time Juggy got beat it was 'luck', and his 'impregable' armour must have gone away for a few seconds.

Hmm, obviously whoever gave Juggy the no-limits fallacy wtih his "impregnable" armour forgot about

1. Thunderstrike separating his helmet from the rest of his armour with one hit of the bloodaxe.

2. Thor nullifying that magical forcefield for 1 minute with his "anti-magic" ability (which as with the usual Thor writer's is never seen again).

3. Onslaught KOing him.

[ali-sama]

I think the burden of proof here is on you, Ali. The RPG might say that the Juggernaut is as tough as full-power Galactus, but have we ever seen anything in the comics that proves this?

AFAIK, the answer to that is no. We have, however, seen the Juggernaut staggered by blows from the Hulk

never was dammaged or hurt. Being pushed back due to a massivly strong punch, which can level mountains, no matter how durable you are. will make you stagger.

Juggernaut sure looks like he's feeling that punch from the Hulk in that picture that Meest posted. But I'll admit that's open to interpretation, and I cannot show any examples of the Hulk knocking out Juggernaut so I'll concede this.

HOWEVER, you still have not shown any evidence to back up your primary claim that Juggernaut can withstand teraton-level explosions or take the same level of punishment Galactus can. And that's what everybody in the thread has been asking you to do. The Hulk and Thor aren't dishing out teraton-level punches, so while it's impressive that Juggernaut can take their attacks it is not sufficient evidence to prove your argument.

i was not debating it. just doing a wankfest. Like I mentioned.

i do not need the rpg to proove his resistance to dammage as compared to galactus. btw the explosion calcs, whoever did them, was definatly wrong, as the explosion looks to be much more powerfull then that.
Anyhow to proove my point.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptun ... .jpg[/img]

[ali-sama]

Fuck you, you self-righteous little brat. You start this thread with RPG stats, never concede publically, make heavily implied statements, then play rhetorical word games to say you didn't mean what was clearly stated.

I posted them yes. I stopped using them when i started debating.
I also consistanly said I am not using the rpg...

Only when called on it. Which is very dishonest.

I stated I was not debating the rpg stats. I did show galactus surviving an explosion wich involved 2 planets and a whole shit of explosives. Which not only became as bright as a star, it also sent the infinity gems to the far reaches of the universe. As sceen from the rubble, it is nothing more then a field of rublle with pieces no biugger then an aveage bed.

when the fuck did I say no limits. I just put up evidence to disrpoove his points. No numbers where needed. I was not measuring his strengnth no was i measuring ho wmuch dammage he was taking. we where talkign about events which happend or did not happen. get that threough you fucking skull.

Get this through your skull: You said this:

*snip rpg crap*
Looks like you're doing more than replying to one man's comments, huh, fucktard. Get on topic, and start backing up your shit. Immediately.

ok. YOu take somthing which i clearly put up to proove how wank fest you can get with juggernaut. I put that in my opener.

Are you this stupid? You make a claim then act surprised when people challenge it? Are you simply inbred?

hmm. YOU undrestand sarcasm and making fun of people do you not?

ok then. As you wish.
So everyone knows this part of the talk will be a wankfest. I will use the high end values for juggernaught. i am doing it just to show how wankfest jug can get

I did that to show how stupid wankfests can be. why else woudl i say it's a wankfest. meaning i am not posting it seriosly. also this had nothing to do with the events discussed.

Then don't fucking post it.[/quote]
i stopped refering to it once i started seriosly debating. I dont; need rpg stats or that figure to proove juggernauts resistance as compared to galactus. See my earlier post with actual comic scans.

[ali-sama]

Don't let them sidetrack the thread: this is about Juggernaut being a wholesale no limits fallacy. He's more invincible than god, apparently, and no numbers are needed for this. Every time Juggy got beat it was 'luck', and his 'impregable' armour must have gone away for a few seconds.

Hmm, obviously whoever gave Juggy the no-limits fallacy wtih his "impregnable" armour forgot about

1. Thunderstrike separating his helmet from the rest of his armour with one hit of the bloodaxe.

cool. I discussed a similar isntance. his helmet is not made out of the same material as his suit. Also it is not indistructable.

2. Thor nullifying that magical forcefield for 1 minute with his "anti-magic" ability (which as with the usual Thor writer's is never seen again).

cool. Read above. Jug was only partially weakend. He was abel to deck thor with 1 punch.

3. Onslaught KOing him.

I don't even need to debate this.
[ur] http://www.geocities.com/hp_space/OnslaughtIntro.html[/url]
he does a good one.
read it. has plenty of evidence.