[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[The Yosemite Bear]

growls at friend for getting him involved in this....

1. The source of Juggarnaut's power is magic
2. It has been established that:
A. He can walk through solid concrete
B. walk across the floor of the ocean no problem
C. has survived in space
D. As per marvel universe handbook (The comic book's answer to the ICS, he can survive a nuclear explosion at ground zero)
3. Has been shown that TK and presumably force TK can lift him, however hurting him is another matter. Also since his invulnerability is also stated to be a variation of a force field type power, even PHEONIX* has stated he's hard to grab/touch Teleketeticly.
4. an create a massive sonic boom by clapping his hands.


*A TK who can exert Deathstar grade feats if you fail to recall.

[mr friendly guy]

Hmm, obviously whoever gave Juggy the no-limits fallacy wtih his "impregnable" armour forgot about

1. Thunderstrike separating his helmet from the rest of his armour with one hit of the bloodaxe.

cool. I discussed a similar isntance. his helmet is not made out of the same material as his suit. Also it is not indistructable.

You posted a link to a fansite saying the Juggernaut's helmet is not made of the same material as the rest of his armour. No evidence was forthcoming on that site on how they reason that. But I am going to guess that they (fansite) used protecting the hypothesis and start off with the assumption that Juggy is unstoppable, so when his helmet gets destroyed, why, it must have been a different material because he is unstoppable.

2. Thor nullifying that magical forcefield for 1 minute with his "anti-magic" ability (which as with the usual Thor writer's is never seen again).

cool. Read above. Jug was only partially weakend. He was abel to deck thor with 1 punch.

And how does this alter the fact that Thor managed to negate his "unstoppable" forcefield? I am fully aware it only weaken some of his powers, however I was specifically refering to the forcefield power which is kind of responsible for him being "impregnable" in my reply to Stark's post.

3. Onslaught KOing him.

I don't even need to debate this.
[ur] http://www.geocities.com/hp_space/OnslaughtIntro.html[/url]
he does a good one.
read it. has plenty of evidence.

Unfortunately geocities once it exceeds its daily bandwidth will not allow viewing.

[The Yosemite Bear]

first of all

his helmet is made out of magical metal that along with his "brass knuckles" are made out of a material that primarily protects juggarnaut from psionic attack, or allows him to perform a beat down my channeling some of his power into his fists when punching. Juggarnaut's power is provided by the Demon Cytorax, and takes the form of a skin tight force field and the ability to manipulate/lift things with that force field. Juggarnaught's clothing is not invulnerable/protected, as shown when spiderman has sucessfully lifted him with his webs, and his helmet has been removed several times. You just can't hurt Cain Marko except with psipower.

[ali-sama]

Hmm, obviously whoever gave Juggy the no-limits fallacy wtih his "impregnable" armour forgot about

1. Thunderstrike separating his helmet from the rest of his armour with one hit of the bloodaxe.

cool. I discussed a similar isntance. his helmet is not made out of the same material as his suit. Also it is not indistructable.

You posted a link to a fansite saying the Juggernaut's helmet is not made of the same material as the rest of his armour. No evidence was forthcoming on that site on how they reason that. But I am going to guess that they (fansite) used protecting the hypothesis and start off with the assumption that Juggy is unstoppable, so when his helmet gets destroyed, why, it must have been a different material because he is unstoppable.

Fuck. I forgot to post the actual link.
http://marvel.com/universe/index.htm
official marvel site.

please click on the following link then go to juggernaught.
Quote:
The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength and grants him an extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury. Once he begins moving in a certain direction, no force on Earth can stop him -- only slow his pace. Sustained by the Crimson Gem of Cyttorak, Cain Marko can survive indefinitely without food, water or oxygen. However, Juggernaut is vulnerable to magical forces of sufficient strength. Without his helmet, constructed of an unknown mystical metal, he is susceptible to psionic attack.



Supernatural strength

Invulnerability

Telepathy-blocking helmet

2. Thor nullifying that magical forcefield for 1 minute with his "anti-magic" ability (which as with the usual Thor writer's is never seen again).

cool. Read above. Jug was only partially weakend. He was abel to deck thor with 1 punch.

And how does this alter the fact that Thor managed to negate his "unstoppable" forcefield? I am fully aware it only weaken some of his powers, however I was specifically refering to the forcefield power which is kind of responsible for him being "impregnable" in my reply to Stark's post.
[/quote]
He has resistance to magic but thor has god magic. Therefore he was able to weaken him.. I am grabbing this issue now. Will post the scenes propper.

3. Onslaught KOing him.

I don't even need to debate this.
[ur] http://www.geocities.com/hp_space/OnslaughtIntro.html[/url]
he does a good one.
read it. has plenty of evidence.

Unfortunately geocities once it exceeds its daily bandwidth will not allow viewing.[/quote]

[ali-sama]

never was dammaged or hurt. Being pushed back due to a massivly strong punch, which can level mountains, no matter how durable you are. will make you stagger.

Juggernaut sure looks like he's feeling that punch from the Hulk in that picture that Meest posted. But I'll admit that's open to interpretation, and I cannot show any examples of the Hulk knocking out Juggernaut so I'll concede this.

HOWEVER, you still have not shown any evidence to back up your primary claim that Juggernaut can withstand teraton-level explosions or take the same level of punishment Galactus can. And that's what everybody in the thread has been asking you to do. The Hulk and Thor aren't dishing out teraton-level punches, so while it's impressive that Juggernaut can take their attacks it is not sufficient evidence to prove your argument.

i was not debating it. just doing a wankfest. Like I mentioned.

i do not need the rpg to proove his resistance to dammage as compared to galactus. btw the explosion calcs, whoever did them, was definatly wrong, as the explosion looks to be much more powerfull then that.
Anyhow to proove my point.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptun ... .jpg[/img]


this attack made galactus run like a pussy

[The Yosemite Bear]

mind you of all the fantasy and sci-fi verses comics are also the "least stable" and do undergo regular "purges"

[Lukedanieljames]

growls at friend for getting him involved in this....

1. The source of Juggarnaut's power is magic
2. It has been established that:
A. He can walk through solid concrete
B. walk across the floor of the ocean no problem
C. has survived in space
D. As per marvel universe handbook (The comic book's answer to the ICS, he can survive a nuclear explosion at ground zero)
3. Has been shown that TK and presumably force TK can lift him, however hurting him is another matter. Also since his invulnerability is also stated to be a variation of a force field type power, even PHEONIX* has stated he's hard to grab/touch Teleketeticly.
4. an create a massive sonic boom by clapping his hands.


*A TK who can exert Deathstar grade feats if you fail to recall.

Now we're getting somewhere,
question

is the handbook cannon?

[Lukedanieljames]

Ok something to go on here,

if Juggy can walk across the ocean floors, the deepest point in the ocean is the

Deepest Point in the World (and Pacific Ocean)

Challenger Deep, Mariana Trench, Western Pacific Ocean: 35,840 feet / 10,924 meters

so according to this site,

http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/water/pressure1.htm


its 14.7 psi per 33 feet so,
15964.2 psi on the bottom,

so that amounts to millions of pounds on his body, so we know he's strong enough to push through almost anything.

Keep in mind, thats walking, thats not even standing still for a squat for deadlift, just walking casually,

freaky strong

[Darth Wong]

I like the way the frames of nearby buildings are still standing after this supposedly cataclysmic God blast, yet the comic fan-whores are still amping up the power. Hell, that blast wasn't even as powerful as many conventional bombs. A MOAB is more powerful than that.

Similarly, I like the way the comic fan-whores try to exaggerate incidents (as above) describing Juggy's strengths, but ignore his weaknesses. Like the times people DID remove his helmet and knock him out with psionics (yes, despite the fan-whore wanking about how it can't be done, it's been done, by the X-Men for example), or more tellingly, the time Spiderman took him out by tricking him into walking into wet cement, whereupon he sank and later said that it took him weeks to walk out of that mess (Amazing Spiderman #230).

Oops, did I just point out stuff that you didn't want to be reminded of?

[Surlethe]

Ok something to go on here,

if Juggy can walk across the ocean floors, the deepest point in the ocean is the

Deepest Point in the World (and Pacific Ocean)

<snip>

so that amounts to millions of pounds on his body, so we know he's strong enough to push through almost anything.

Keep in mind, thats walking, thats not even standing still for a squat for deadlift, just walking casually,

freaky strong

I love how you go from "ocean floors" to "the deepest point in the world". Why don't you just go straight to "the core of the earth"? After all, the oceans compress the crust of the earth, so if he can withstand the ocean floor, that means he'll with survive at the center of the earth, right?

[Lukedanieljames]

Ok something to go on here,

if Juggy can walk across the ocean floors, the deepest point in the ocean is the

Deepest Point in the World (and Pacific Ocean)

<snip>

so that amounts to millions of pounds on his body, so we know he's strong enough to push through almost anything.

Keep in mind, thats walking, thats not even standing still for a squat for deadlift, just walking casually,

freaky strong

I love how you go from "ocean floors" to "the deepest point in the world". Why don't you just go straight to "the core of the earth"? After all, the oceans compress the crust of the earth, so if he can withstand the ocean floor, that means he'll with survive at the center of the earth, right?

uh, ok

its said he can walk across the ocean on the bottom so you calculate the MOST he'd have to endure not the least

thats the dumbest thing said this entire thread

[ali-sama]

growls at friend for getting him involved in this....

1. The source of Juggarnaut's power is magic
2. It has been established that:
A. He can walk through solid concrete
B. walk across the floor of the ocean no problem
C. has survived in space
D. As per marvel universe handbook (The comic book's answer to the ICS, he can survive a nuclear explosion at ground zero)
3. Has been shown that TK and presumably force TK can lift him, however hurting him is another matter. Also since his invulnerability is also stated to be a variation of a force field type power, even PHEONIX* has stated he's hard to grab/touch Teleketeticly.
4. an create a massive sonic boom by clapping his hands.


*A TK who can exert Deathstar grade feats if you fail to recall.

Now we're getting somewhere,
question

is the handbook cannon?

i don't know. but I can ask.

[Enigma]

growls at friend for getting him involved in this....

1. The source of Juggarnaut's power is magic
2. It has been established that:
A. He can walk through solid concrete
B. walk across the floor of the ocean no problem
C. has survived in space
D. As per marvel universe handbook (The comic book's answer to the ICS, he can survive a nuclear explosion at ground zero)
3. Has been shown that TK and presumably force TK can lift him, however hurting him is another matter. Also since his invulnerability is also stated to be a variation of a force field type power, even PHEONIX* has stated he's hard to grab/touch Teleketeticly.
4. an create a massive sonic boom by clapping his hands.


*A TK who can exert Deathstar grade feats if you fail to recall.

Don't forget that even lifted up by TK, Juggy can still "walk" as if still on the ground.

[Dangermouse]

if Juggy can walk across the ocean floors, the deepest point in the ocean is the
Deepest Point in the World (and Pacific Ocean)
Challenger Deep, Mariana Trench, Western Pacific Ocean: 35,840 feet / 10,924 meters
so according to this site,
http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/water/pressure1.htm

its 14.7 psi per 33 feet so,
15964.2 psi on the bottom,

so that amounts to millions of pounds on his body, so we know he's strong enough to push through almost anything.

Ok, I'll bite. What matters on the ocean floor is the pressure difference, not the absolute hydrostatic pressure. Lungs, air-filled abdominal viscera, ear canals all collapse because they are filled with air; the pressure difference between the outside (thousands of PSI) and the inside of the organ (1 atm) leads to a collapse of the structure until the pressure is equalized (no air). Your muscles and cells are mostly water and devoid of air and thus would be already equalized with the surrounding pressure.

All this tells us is that Juggernaut either has a)no air filled internal cavities or structures b) lungs and organs that can collapse perfectly without sticking allowing them to inflate after leaving the floor (as well as having an amazing ability to store excess oxygen in his muscles like a whale) or c)a completely rigid and enclosed rib shell that can can withstand the pressure on the floor. Note that this makes breathing largely impossible.

His ability to push through anything as you call it is dependent on his muscles and skeletal dimensions. His arms muscles, leg muscles, chest muscles could care less what the outside pressure is. Deep sea fish survive in the deep ocean (3000-5000PSI) not because they have uber wank muscles, but because their tissues are devoid of internal air cavities and have become equalized with the surrounding pressure.

Do you seriously think the muscles on a deep sea fish could deadlift thousands of pounds?

Walking on the bottom of the ocean is an impressive feat, but tells us little about muscularture.

[The Yosemite Bear]

growls at friend for getting him involved in this....

1. The source of Juggarnaut's power is magic
2. It has been established that:
A. He can walk through solid concrete
B. walk across the floor of the ocean no problem
C. has survived in space
D. As per marvel universe handbook (The comic book's answer to the ICS, he can survive a nuclear explosion at ground zero)
3. Has been shown that TK and presumably force TK can lift him, however hurting him is another matter. Also since his invulnerability is also stated to be a variation of a force field type power, even PHEONIX* has stated he's hard to grab/touch Teleketeticly.
4. an create a massive sonic boom by clapping his hands.


*A TK who can exert Deathstar grade feats if you fail to recall.

Now we're getting somewhere,
question

is the handbook cannon?

Well It's supposed to be as it's published by marvel back in the 1980's as the guide point for Character's strengths and ability simular to ICS is for Starwars. The Handbook was published at a time when everyone in the comic books were trying to get continuity stabalized. unfortunatly it's gotten very unstable since then.

[Lukedanieljames]

Well It's supposed to be as it's published by marvel back in the 1980's as the guide point for Character's strengths and ability simular to ICS is for Starwars. The Handbook was published at a time when everyone in the comic books were trying to get continuity stabalized. unfortunatly it's gotten very unstable since then.

well so do a lot of universes, starwars/startrek universe alike.

I'm going to look at what energy juggy would have to withstand in a nuclear explosion,
are you sure it says that in the book?

[Darth Wong]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

[Surlethe]

I love how you go from "ocean floors" to "the deepest point in the world". Why don't you just go straight to "the core of the earth"? After all, the oceans compress the crust of the earth, so if he can withstand the ocean floor, that means he'll with survive at the center of the earth, right?

uh, ok

its said he can walk across the ocean on the bottom so you calculate the MOST he'd have to endure not the least

thats the dumbest thing said this entire thread

So we calculate the upper limit ... and then we use it as a benchmark. I love how you're thinking! Pure genius!

[RThurmont]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

"In other news, Cemex shares rose 8 points to close at 56.37 on word that the Mexican concrete giant had been retained by the Sith to supply wet cement for their war effort against the mysterious Juggernaut."

Seriously, the only possible way for a Juggernaut enthusiast to work (or perhaps wank) their way out of this would be to suggest that the Sith (or anyone else in the SW galaxy) might not discover that weakness due to the fact that most sophisticated "major" construction projects such as Coruscant skyscrapers, military installations and what not are likely built with more advanced materials, and that cement is only used in "primitive" (read: traditional low tech) structures like what we see on Tatooine and Naboo, and as a result the required combination needed to take out Juggernaut would simply be too eclectic for them to figure out. Such a defense of course ignores Juggernaut's other weaknesses as raised within this thread, and the fact that if Juggernaut is vulnerable to wet cement, he is likely vulnerable to other materials with similiar properties.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The only problem with the wet cement is that it's the same problem dinosaurces and mammoth's had with Tar, mean while Cytorax has teleported juggernaught and the Hulk in the past when they were either causing him annoyance or there was grave danger to juggernaut. basically to defeat the cement he had to wait for it to set, and then needed to flex his muscles until he had some room to get leverage against.

[ali-sama]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

dont; have time. but i will look tomarrow.
it was a city block of concrete 100 feet thick.
a city block is 1,000,000.00 square feet and
1,000,000.00 squar feet is
Concrete having a unit weight of approximately 2400 kg/m3 made with aggregates of normal weight.

100ft*1,000,000ft^2=100,000,000ft^3

100,000,000ft^3*.02831685m^3/ft^3=2831685m^3
2831685m^3*2400kg/m^3=6796044000kg
6796044000kg*2.2lbs/kg=14982712341.5lbs
14982712341.5lbs*0.0005tons/lb=7,491,356tons of force on him

my source

[ur]http://www.pavement.com/PavTech/Tech/Glossary/C.html[/url]
http://www.tfz.net/affiche_fiche.php?id=2445
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/sho ... rive/9626/

[SirNitram]

He is not supporting a city block on his back. He is merely encased in cement.

[Surlethe]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

dont; have time. but i will look tomarrow.
it was a city block of concrete 100 feet thick.
a city block is 1,000,000.00 square feet and
1,000,000.00 squar feet is
Concrete having a unit weight of approximately 2400 kg/m3 made with aggregates of normal weight.

100ft*1,000,000ft^2=100,000,000ft^3

100,000,000ft^3*.02831685m^3/ft^3=2831685m^3
2831685m^3*2400kg/m^3=6796044000kg
6796044000kg*2.2lbs/kg=14982712341.5lbs
14982712341.5lbs*0.0005tons/lb=7,491,356tons of force on him

my source

[ur]http://www.pavement.com/PavTech/Tech/Glossary/C.html[/url]
http://www.tfz.net/affiche_fiche.php?id=2445
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/sho ... rive/9626/

You kind of missed his point, which is you can trap Juggernaut in wet cement, and then do whatever the fuck you feel like for a week or so while he walks out, including things like ... oh, I dunno ... bring in reinforcements; shoot the wet cement into outer space; put more wet cement on top of it, just to name a few.

[Dendrobius]

OK, so how does the wet cement thing stack up against Ali's example of Juggernaut being "cast" into a steel block and then bursting out of it "moments later" (as quoted from the comic)?

Concrete is shithouse when loaded in tension, steel is great, and if Jugs can get out of steel in relatively short order, how in the name of all that's holy does concrete hold him?

The page in question
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/ ... 412_17.jpg

[Surlethe]

OK, so how does the wet cement thing stack up against Ali's example of Juggernaut being "cast" into a steel block and then bursting out of it "moments later" (as quoted from the comic)?

Concrete is shithouse when loaded in tension, steel is great, and if Jugs can get out of steel in relatively short order, how in the name of all that's holy does concrete hold him?

The page in question
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/ ... 412_17.jpg

The difference lies in the fact it's wet cement. How would the juggernaut burst out of a liquid?