Waters deep under the surface - the Noah Flood

[Magnetic]

Here's a link that describes where the water for the Noah Flood came from, and where it went.

Please look at it objectively and try to overlook the 'religious aspects' of it. I'd like to know your opinion. Thanks!

++http://www.ldolphin.org/deepwaters.html

[SirNitram]

You know, the hydrosphere is a theory for Mars. Earth has this little problem of far too much molten rock to allow that much water to remain down there without being forced out as steam.

[Magnetic]

Here's another one:

++http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/theflood.html

[Magnetic]

You know, the hydrosphere is a theory for Mars. Earth has this little problem of far too much molten rock to allow that much water to remain down there without being forced out as steam.

Here's one guy's interpretation that allowed the flood:

Genesis 7:
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Fountains of the deep=water from under ground.
Windows of heaven=God creating more water to flood the earth.

gen 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;

Fountains of the deep=water from the earth.
Windows of heaven=water created by God that flowed from heaven
Rain from heaven=water that came from the atmosphere (possibly the canopy).

Just thought I'd add that into the mix.

[SirNitram]

Here's another one:

++http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/theflood.html

Yea, canned and copy-pasted Creationist BS that's been rejected for decades.

The question is, why are you posting this tripe?

[SirNitram]

Just thought I'd add that into the mix.

Here's a better one: A Sumerian account of a farmer who was caught by a flood of the Tigris and Euphrates with a few of his animals and family. Throw in the exaggeration of a few centuries of desert nomads and their inevitable hallucinations, and bam, the Flood Myth.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Here's another one:

++http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/theflood.html

Yea, canned and copy-pasted Creationist BS that's been rejected for decades.

The question is, why are you posting this tripe?

Closet creationist?

Magnetic, this is completely irrelevant. Rationalizing passages from a book is not evidence of it happening. Even if they were right there would still be physical evidence of a flood on that scale. There isn't any.

[Magnetic]

Here's another one:

++http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/theflood.html

Yea, canned and copy-pasted Creationist BS that's been rejected for decades.

The question is, why are you posting this tripe?

Help for answers on the other forum, . . from people who are knowledgeable in such scientific areas.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Here's a link that describes where the water for the Noah Flood came from, and where it went.

Please look at it objectively and try to overlook the 'religious aspects' of it. I'd like to know your opinion. Thanks!

++http://www.ldolphin.org/deepwaters.html

The water locked up in Earth's mantle is, as the article points out, largely locked up in hydrous minerals. Its main effect is to modify the viscosity of the molten rock in Earth's mantle, prompting things such as volcanic hot-spots and basalt floods . . . at which point, the water is released as water vapor, as the minerals dehydrate.

But, to say that this could cause the Flood? Complete and utter bullshit. Debunked here.

Furthermore, the article itself has this to say, which flies in the face of your apparent attempt to misrepresent it as something it isn't:

Although it is not easy to estimate how much water goes into the mantle through subduction compared with how much comes back out via volcanoes it seems that the whole system is roughly in balance. But what if the balance were to shift, and more water come out than goes in? Obviously the oceans would rise, but the more important effects would be in the atmosphere. "Water is the primary greenhouse gas," notes Jeanloz. If there were a massive build-up of greenhouse gases, he says, it could have a devastating effect on every living creature on Earth. But a sudden outpouring of water, Noah-style, is not likely even if the balance does tilt to a greater outflow. Rather it would be a gradual change on geological timescales, which would affect only our most distant descendants. Perhaps by then they will have evolved gills.

(Emphasis mine.)

[Darth Wong]

Anyone who believes that water content trapped in the mantle might suddenly rush out (without bringing the lava with it) should also logically believe that the 40 or 50 litres of water trapped in your body might suddenly gush out of your head in a great geyser.

That's leaving aside the issue of the quantity of water and its environmental side-effects, of course. Really, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting yet another reason why "Flood Geology" is fucking stupid bullshit that only a raving idiot could possibly believe.

[Magnetic]

I have my own thoughts on why the Noah Flood would take countless 'miracles' and what you all post here is just more I could give them in rebuttle. I'll use that link you offered, GrandMasterTerwynn.

Thanks for the help!

I believe that one of the articles said that the amount of water under the surface is 10 times greater than the oceans. I find that hard to believe, personally. However, if there WERE, what would that mean, geologically?

[Alyeska]

Some other facts worth mentioning. The energy required to put that much water into the air would be enough to raise the temperature of Earth hot enough to cook everyone alive. Furthermore, the kinetic energy imparted by that much water falling back to the planet is enough energy to almost double the earth's temperature and ensure that those on the boat are quite roasted alive.

[Gil Hamilton]

The way I see it, it takes dozens of miracles to make the Biblical flood work and for Noah and the animals to survive. It takes exactly one miracle for God to snap his fingers and make all the sinners he wanted to kill with the Flood simply drop dead.

Oddly enough, I figured this out in Sunday School back when I was eight.

[Magnetic]

The way I see it, it takes dozens of miracles to make the Biblical flood work and for Noah and the animals to survive. It takes exactly one miracle for God to snap his fingers and make all the sinners he wanted to kill with the Flood simply drop dead.

Oddly enough, I figured this out in Sunday School back when I was eight.

AND that one miracle would have saved the animals and plant life, that is if it WAS just because of people who angered God. I wonder what the babies did?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I have my own thoughts on why the Noah Flood would take countless 'miracles' and what you all post here is just more I could give them in rebuttle. I'll use that link you offered, GrandMasterTerwynn.

Thanks for the help!

I believe that one of the articles said that the amount of water under the surface is 10 times greater than the oceans. I find that hard to believe, personally. However, if there WERE, what would that mean, geologically?

The average depth of the Earth's oceans only accounts for 1/1595th of the overall radius of the Earth (4 km versus 6378.1 km) So the volume of Earth's oceans (~1.3 billion cubic kilometers) is relatively insignificant compared to the volume of the Earth (~1 trillion cubic kilometers.) So one could very easily lose ten oceans worth of water in the Earth's mantle and crust. However, almost all of it is locked up in hydrous (water-bearing) minerals, and not as free water. Hydrous mineral bearing magma has a different viscosity and density than otherwise dehydrated magma. The difference in viscosity is (according to some theories) the driving force behind plate tectonics. A relatively dehydrated mantle doesn't permit the crust to slide around on top of it (as is the case on Venus, where the crust just sits there and traps heat until it breaks loose in cataclysmic episodes of volcanic activity which completely resurface the planet.) Whereas a 'wetter' mantle permits plate tectonics (As is the case on Earth, and as seems to have once been the case on Mars.)

So water in the mantle merely affects the type of geological activity we have on Earth. The vast majority of it stays in the mantle, and what is expelled through volcanic activity and new crustal rock forming at plate spreading boundaries, tends to be replenished by plate subduction carrying water into the mantle.

[Magnetic]

I have my own thoughts on why the Noah Flood would take countless 'miracles' and what you all post here is just more I could give them in rebuttle. I'll use that link you offered, GrandMasterTerwynn.

Thanks for the help!

I believe that one of the articles said that the amount of water under the surface is 10 times greater than the oceans. I find that hard to believe, personally. However, if there WERE, what would that mean, geologically?

The average depth of the Earth's oceans only accounts for 1/1595th of the overall radius of the Earth (4 km versus 6378.1 km) So the volume of Earth's oceans (~1.3 billion cubic kilometers) is relatively insignificant compared to the volume of the Earth (~1 trillion cubic kilometers.) So one could very easily lose ten oceans worth of water in the Earth's mantle and crust. However, almost all of it is locked up in hydrous (water-bearing) minerals, and not as free water. Hydrous mineral bearing magma has a different viscosity and density than otherwise dehydrated magma. The difference in viscosity is (according to some theories) the driving force behind plate tectonics. A relatively dehydrated mantle doesn't permit the crust to slide around on top of it (as is the case on Venus, where the crust just sits there and traps heat until it breaks loose in cataclysmic episodes of volcanic activity which completely resurface the planet.) Whereas a 'wetter' mantle permits plate tectonics (As is the case on Earth, and as seems to have once been the case on Mars.)

So water in the mantle merely affects the type of geological activity we have on Earth. The vast majority of it stays in the mantle, and what is expelled through volcanic activity and new crustal rock forming at plate spreading boundaries, tends to be replenished by plate subduction carrying water into the mantle.

Very interesting! I've learned something new today. Thank!

[John of the Dead]

Hey, Magnetic, there was a great special on the Discovery Channel a few years ago called "Noah's Ark: The True Story." It examined many of the various theories for where all the water came from, and then systematically debunked them. Afterwards, it examined the origin of the flood story from a historical perspective, tracing the evolution of the tale throughout history. Finally, it gave a conclusion that said that in the distant past (about 5,000 years ago), there had been a freakishly large flood, but certainly not a global flood, and that the tale had been co-opted and exaggerated throughout the years.

I show this video to my junior high Sunday School class every couple of years. They usually feel much better about the flood story with this logical analysis of the events. Really, if 7th graders, raised to beleive in the Bible, see the flaws in the tale, I'm shocked that adults don't dismiss it wholesale. The point isn't to read it literally, but as Jewish creation myth and lesson on service, obedience, and sacrifice.

If you're curious, it's available at the Discovery Channel Store. If you're interested in the flood story and trying to reconcile the Biblical account with logic and reason, I highly recommend it.

[Magnetic]

Thank you, John of the Dead! I'll check into that!

[Surlethe]

Some other facts worth mentioning. The energy required to put that much water into the air would be enough to raise the temperature of Earth hot enough to cook everyone alive. Furthermore, the kinetic energy imparted by that much water falling back to the planet is enough energy to almost double the earth's temperature and ensure that those on the boat are quite roasted alive.

Wasn't there a thread a while back where some people hashed out the numbers and found the KE would just raise the water's temperature a few degrees C?

[Veramocor]

Alyeska wrote:
Some other facts worth mentioning. The energy required to put that much water into the air would be enough to raise the temperature of Earth hot enough to cook everyone alive. Furthermore, the kinetic energy imparted by that much water falling back to the planet is enough energy to almost double the earth's temperature and ensure that those on the boat are quite roasted alive.

Surlethe wrote:


Wasn't there a thread a while back where some people hashed out the numbers and found the KE would just raise the water's temperature a few degrees C?

Yes I posted it and was summarily accused of being a creationist because some people are too lazy to work out the numbers. I believe Alyeska made the same quote almost in the last one but didn't back it up in that argument either. Maybe this time they would like to put up or shut up. I don't think I need to post my calcs again they can read it in this post, page 4.

The basics, the kinetic energy of water dropping from calculation heights is not enough to heat up the planet Earth because you have heat up the water first.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... highlight=

How about you retract once and for all your kinetic energy part of the statement (highlighted and bolded) Alyeska?[/i]

[Darth Wong]

Ahem ... it heats up the air.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Wow, an option of drowning or being incinerated. God loves options for death.

[Edi]

Did that Discovery Channel program have anything on the Black Sea Portal flood theory? According to that theory, the origin of the Flood myths would be in the Black Sea basin which at one point some ten thousand years ago was separated from the Mediterranean and the rest of the seas and at a lower elevation but got flooded when the Bosporus isthmus gave way (possibly due to earthquakes).

There is some evidence that something like that might have happened at some point, because there are ancient settlements at the bottom of the Black Sea near the edge of a massive underwater cliff that would have marked the shoreline back in those days. I've also seen some rather convincing argumentation that the Sumerian flood myths in Gilgamesh would be descriptions of this flood.

Does anyone here have knowledge of what the status of this theory is and where to find more info on it?

Edi

[Instant Sunrise]

I've always just thought that the book of Genesis was a written account of oral history, and that the flood was actually an account of the sea levels rising at the end of the last ice age. It doesn't need to be a massive global flood.

[Veramocor]

Ahem ... it heats up the air.

The quote was double the Earths temperature. Are you changing that to doubling "the Earth's Atmosphere" temperature now Wong?


The air temperature would equilibriate with water temperature. The calculations show that there isn't even enough energy to boil the water 'god' magically dropped.


I'm not even sure if the air temperature by the surface would be raised that much. Evaporating water takes about 960 BTU/lb (@ 212 deg F it is higher at lower temps but I don't have my copy of Cameron's to check.

Lets say the average world air average temperature is 80 deg F and friction heats up the air to 120 deg F. I'll even say friction transfers all the kinetic energy to the air

@80 deg F 1000 lbs of air holds about 20 lbs of water

@120 deg F 1000 lbs of air holds 80 lbs of water

@150 deg F 1000 lbs air holds 210 lbs water

@190 deg F 1000 lbs air holds 1,100 lbs water

60 lbs of water per 1000lbs of air will be absorbed (190 lbs for 150 deg F)

There are 14.7 lbs per square in of surface area. .5 x 10E15 m2*39^2

.5*10E15*39^2*14.7 equals the pounds of air of the Earth.

.5*10E15*39^2*(14.7 lbs air*60 pounds water evaporated/1000 lbs water*1000 BTU/lb=6.7E20 of energy to evaporate water.

.5*10E15*39^2*14.7*(40 deg F temo change)*.7 BTU/lb air=3.13 E20

Thats roughly ~1E21 BTUs to get to 120 deg F atmospheric temp.

If we use 150 deg F just to evaporate the water would require 1.12 E21

@ 190 deg F, 1E22 just to heat the water.

Total Possible energy was calculated by others at 7.8E+25 joules a joule equals ~ 1000 BTU=7.8*10^22 BTU's calculated of total energy availible.

This assumes that all the energy is transferred to the air which it isn't a portion is transferred directly to the water. Also a portion is transferred to the ground as kinetic energy.

The Earths atmoshphere would be less than 190 deg F. The temperature at the surface would be much less due to heat transfer at the surface.