[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[Lukedanieljames]

So we calculate the upper limit ... and then we use it as a benchmark. I love how you're thinking! Pure genius!

your sarcasm is border line trolling,

if he can walk across the ocean, you must figure out the most he would endure, not the least, or we'd calculate how much he'd endure when he's 20 feet from the beach.

That is like saying, if someone can survive a nuclear expolosion you figure out what its like at ground zero, not 25 miles from the blast

[Surlethe]

So we calculate the upper limit ... and then we use it as a benchmark. I love how you're thinking! Pure genius!

your sarcasm is border line trolling,

if he can walk across the ocean, you must figure out the most he would endure, not the least, or we'd calculate how much he'd endure when he's 20 feet from the beach.

That is like saying, if someone can survive a nuclear expolosion you figure out what its like at ground zero, not 25 miles from the blast

Your stupidity is underwhelming, moron. Do you not realize the difference between the upper limit and what we can reasonably infer from "walking across the ocean floors"?

I also noticed you ignored Dangermouse's post.

[Stark]

Hey hey, don't try to call him on anything. Comic trolls respond poorly to criticism!

I mean, hey, we could argue that he never goes into the deepest areas of the ocean. We could even say, shit, there's no evidence of him doing that! He even comes out clean, I'll bet, so there's no evidence of where he's been AT ALL. He could go into the ocean, out of sight, then follow the coast all the way to Mexico. Or swim! But no, he clearly aims squarely at the deepest, most hostile areas of the ocean. OBVIOUSLY.

Best part: he's too stupid to see the deepest area ALONG HIS LINE OF TRAVEL. Where'd he start? Where'd he go? I bet the fucking Marianas trench isn't in the fucking way.

[Darth Wong]

OK, so how does the wet cement thing stack up against Ali's example of Juggernaut being "cast" into a steel block and then bursting out of it "moments later" (as quoted from the comic)?

Concrete is shithouse when loaded in tension, steel is great, and if Jugs can get out of steel in relatively short order, how in the name of all that's holy does concrete hold him?

The page in question
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/ ... 412_17.jpg

Go back to the shallow end, boy. Your brain isn't up to the task. The steel cocoon is of unknown quality, being rapid-melted by Iron Man's weapons and then flash-frozen through some mystical means. You are obviously assuming that it has the same properties as a cast ingot of structural steel, which is mindlessly stupid. At the very least, this process would produce a block which is full of voids, with massive impurities due to the uncontrolled environment. Not to mention the fact that the mystical instant flash-freezing process would make the entire microstructure martensitic at best, and possibly an even more unstable microstructure. structure. That means it will be brittle as hell. So no, it's really not that surprising that Juggernaut was able to smash his way out of it.

And guess what: you can't make one piece of evidence go away by citing another that you think contradicts it: you must explain them both, and you haven't even tried.

[Darth Wong]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

dont; have time. but i will look tomarrow.
it was a city block of concrete 100 feet thick.
a city block is 1,000,000.00 square feet and
1,000,000.00 squar feet is
Concrete having a unit weight of approximately 2400 kg/m3 made with aggregates of normal weight.

100ft*1,000,000ft^2=100,000,000ft^3

100,000,000ft^3*.02831685m^3/ft^3=2831685m^3
2831685m^3*2400kg/m^3=6796044000kg
6796044000kg*2.2lbs/kg=14982712341.5lbs
14982712341.5lbs*0.0005tons/lb=7,491,356tons of force on him

my source

[ur]http://www.pavement.com/PavTech/Tech/Glossary/C.html[/url]
http://www.tfz.net/affiche_fiche.php?id=2445
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/sho ... rive/9626/

Do you have ANY idea how to calculate pressure in a fluid medium?

Don't try this shit unless you know what you're doing; I hate it when people do calculations and they obviously have no clue. Calculations are meaningless unless you plug meaningful numbers into them. And in this case, Mr. Moron here decided that the entire weight of a city block of concrete would be applied to an individual 2 metre tall object in the middle. Do you also calculate the entire weight of the oceans and assume that will press on you when you go to the beach?

[Darth Wong]

So we calculate the upper limit ... and then we use it as a benchmark. I love how you're thinking! Pure genius!

your sarcasm is border line trolling,

This from someone who is studiously pretending that the Spiderman wet-cement incident never happened, and who refuses to comment on it even though it's already been mentioned several times.

[Instant Sunrise]

I'm looking at a bathymetric map right now. For the atlantic: You could go from Newfoundland, and follow the shelf to Greenland, follow the rise to the Icelandic plateau, follow the seamount to the continental shelf of Europe. No abyssal plane.

For the Pacific and Indian ocean: starting from Mexico, follow the East Pacific rise to the Eltanin Fracture Zone, take that to the Pacific-Antarctic Ridge until you get to the Mid-Indian ridge, which takes you straight up to the Arabian Peninsula.

The Marianas trench is 8 km deep. The abyssal plains are, on average, 5 km deep. The hydrostatic pressure on the plains are 7,320 psi(assuming that seawater has an averagedensity of 1030 kg/m^3, and gravity has an accelleration of 9.8 m/s^2). Compared to the 16,000 psi of the trenches, thats a fucking huge difference if you ask me.

Like what has been posted before, it's not the pressure itself that is the problem. It's the DIFFERENCE between the pressure outside of you and inside of you. If you filled all of your body cavities with a breathable fluid(It's possible), you would be PERFECTLY fine at the bottom of the Challenger Deep, it would be cold, dark, and salty as hell, but you would be safe from the pressure.

PS: Feel free to correct my calculations for hydrostatic pressure.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Correct he doesn't do viscus problems that well, solid things his small mind can figure out how to burst through. What you have to realize is that the daemon that gives him that power, enjoys limitting the amount he draws on by Marco's limited imagination.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Hey hey, don't try to call him on anything. Comic trolls respond poorly to criticism!

I mean, hey, we could argue that he never goes into the deepest areas of the ocean. We could even say, shit, there's no evidence of him doing that! He even comes out clean, I'll bet, so there's no evidence of where he's been AT ALL. He could go into the ocean, out of sight, then follow the coast all the way to Mexico. Or swim! But no, he clearly aims squarely at the deepest, most hostile areas of the ocean. OBVIOUSLY.

Best part: he's too stupid to see the deepest area ALONG HIS LINE OF TRAVEL. Where'd he start? Where'd he go? I bet the fucking Marianas trench isn't in the fucking way.

Usually the stunt is infact to evade police and border patrols. Basically it's a trip along the seaboard, sneaks into Canada, rents a vehicle, hikes to greenland, and from GREENLAND he hikes all the way to the most secure prison in England in order to break his terrorist turned merc. best friend out. It's not like anything really stops him.

[ali-sama]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

dont; have time. but i will look tomarrow.
it was a city block of concrete 100 feet thick.
a city block is 1,000,000.00 square feet and
1,000,000.00 squar feet is
Concrete having a unit weight of approximately 2400 kg/m3 made with aggregates of normal weight.

100ft*1,000,000ft^2=100,000,000ft^3

100,000,000ft^3*.02831685m^3/ft^3=2831685m^3
2831685m^3*2400kg/m^3=6796044000kg
6796044000kg*2.2lbs/kg=14982712341.5lbs
14982712341.5lbs*0.0005tons/lb=7,491,356tons of force on him

my source

[ur]http://www.pavement.com/PavTech/Tech/Glossary/C.html[/url]
http://www.tfz.net/affiche_fiche.php?id=2445
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/sho ... rive/9626/

Do you have ANY idea how to calculate pressure in a fluid medium?

Don't try this shit unless you know what you're doing; I hate it when people do calculations and they obviously have no clue. Calculations are meaningless unless you plug meaningful numbers into them. And in this case, Mr. Moron here decided that the entire weight of a city block of concrete would be applied to an individual 2 metre tall object in the middle. Do you also calculate the entire weight of the oceans and assume that will press on you when you go to the beach?

i made no claims. He waited till it solidified anyhow. just was curiouse how much it woudl weigh and thought i woudl share.

[ali-sama]

quick question to thoes who say they can shuttle =juggernaut into the sun. where woudl they get said shuttle from?

[Stark]

quick question to thoes who say they can shuttle =juggernaut into the sun. where woudl they get said shuttle from?

How about you start addressing some fucking points? Throwing out individual instances, wanking them till it hurts, then ignoring contrary instances is starting to get old. Even better, you claim bullshit that gets refuted and then handwave it off. If he can walk when levitated, why can't he walk in a fluid? We adults call that 'analysis'.

OMGZ0R what shuttle!? Don't make any of us fucking pull out Wankatine you dishonest little shit.

@ Bear - does Juggernaut do this all the time? I thought it was a specific occasion that was bought up. In any case, judging his resiliance based on the Marianas trench when he's going from NY to UK is pretty baseless. Is he shown walking on the bottom, or could he swim? It seems it'd be much faster for him to swim, since it'd reduce the distance covered.

[18-Till-I-Die]

quick question to thoes who say they can shuttle =juggernaut into the sun. where woudl they get said shuttle from?

Well, i guess cause they both have spaceships of their own. They're allowed to use all their resources, like Juggernaut, except Juggy's resources are rather...limited to say the least.

Which is why i'd prefer something like an arena fight. No outside resources or help, just two guys fight to the death with what they have on their backs. Otherwise you can realistically say, yes they would just hop in a shuttle and send him to the sun with a tractor beam tow.

[ali-sama]

quick question to thoes who say they can shuttle =juggernaut into the sun. where woudl they get said shuttle from?

How about you start addressing some fucking points? Throwing out individual instances, wanking them till it hurts, then ignoring contrary instances is starting to get old. Even better, you claim bullshit that gets refuted and then handwave it off. If he can walk when levitated, why can't he walk in a fluid? We adults call that 'analysis'.

OMGZ0R what shuttle!? Don't make any of us fucking pull out Wankatine you dishonest little shit.

@ Bear - does Juggernaut do this all the time? I thought it was a specific occasion that was bought up. In any case, judging his resiliance based on the Marianas trench when he's going from NY to UK is pretty baseless. Is he shown walking on the bottom, or could he swim? It seems it'd be much faster for him to swim, since it'd reduce the distance covered.

Huh? repeat that in english.

I never clamied shit. Learn to read, shit for brains. I used comic isntances for the real debate and posted pages to proove them.
How is concrete a liquid?
if you claim fresh concrete is a liquid. Then do this for me. And I'll admit defeat. Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

[The Yosemite Bear]

To be exact.

Xavier and Marko found the temple of Cytorax in Tibet
(marco was looting it and working as a mercinary, Xavier was trying to keep his foster brother out of trouble.) The Chinese autorities shelled the temple gravely wounding Xavier, who escaped but was forced to mind control the Chinese. The shelling buried marko under the temple that was built into the mountain.

Now fast forward 15 years, marco shows up at Xavier's private school having dug his way out of the temple, walked under the pacific ocean, gotten horribly lost, and testing out his powers, working as a mercinary some more, and preparing for his attack.

He litterially burrowed into the sub-basement of the mansion.

As to walking from Newfoundland to England he's done it exactly three times that I am aware of (he weighs close to a ton and has problems with conventional vehicles. Also since he is a known associate of an IRA terrorist he stays away from British coustoms)

[Dendrobius]

OK, so how does the wet cement thing stack up against Ali's example of Juggernaut being "cast" into a steel block and then bursting out of it "moments later" (as quoted from the comic)?

Concrete is shithouse when loaded in tension, steel is great, and if Jugs can get out of steel in relatively short order, how in the name of all that's holy does concrete hold him?

The page in question
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/ ... 412_17.jpg

Go back to the shallow end, boy. Your brain isn't up to the task. The steel cocoon is of unknown quality, being rapid-melted by Iron Man's weapons and then flash-frozen through some mystical means. You are obviously assuming that it has the same properties as a cast ingot of structural steel, which is mindlessly stupid. At the very least, this process would produce a block which is full of voids, with massive impurities due to the uncontrolled environment. Not to mention the fact that the mystical instant flash-freezing process would make the entire microstructure martensitic at best, and possibly an even more unstable microstructure. structure. That means it will be brittle as hell. So no, it's really not that surprising that Juggernaut was able to smash his way out of it.

And guess what: you can't make one piece of evidence go away by citing another that you think contradicts it: you must explain them both, and you haven't even tried.

Hey, I couldn't care less if Jugs can get pussywhipped by Pee Wee Herman. What I'm really asking is, how do you deal with two canon pieces of evidence which completely contradict each other? Are you supposed to take the absolute minimum which you can find and assume that is it, and everything else beyond it is a fluke? Or do we take an average of what we see?

Actually, no, I'm not approximating it as a cast ingot of structural steel, I'm guessing that it's closer to white cast iron on the surface with the ludicrious forced cooling, and I'm guessing that it would be grey cast iron on the inside as that big block just can't cool uniformly that quickly. The block obviously melted all the way through as when Jugs broke through it you can see that it was one homogenous block.

Doing a quick check, using ESDU item 02016, Fracture toughness values of some cast irons, grey cast iron was what I'm guessing it to be, is stated to have a UTS of between 238~286MPa (Table 8.1.1). However, if you assume absolute worse case scenario, austenitic white cast iron, then you have a UTS of zero, just like concrete.

Am I being too generous in assuming that it's grey cast iron?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Also note that when the Chinese shelled that temple, they brought the better part of a mountain down on him. No one knows how long it took him to get out of that.

[Lost Soal]

Huh? repeat that in english.

I never clamied shit. Learn to read, shit for brains. I used comic isntances for the real debate and posted pages to proove them.
How is concrete a liquid?
if you claim fresh concrete is a liquid. Then do this for me. And I'll admit defeat. Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

Heres a word for you to learn. It's called "Viscosity". Wet cement is a thick and viscous fluid.
BTW if its not a fluid, how the Hell do you think they pour it.

[The Yosemite Bear]

note Juggarnaut really can't swim

Cain Marko can swim.

The juggarnaut weighs almost an imperial ton. He's got too much density to swim (hence the walking on the sea comment)

[Meest]

When are we going to see a reply to Juggy's low end examples? Where was his big bad nuke absorbing/unstoppable forcefield in this pic? He screams in pain, bleeds and needs a few seconds to regain vision. Maybe that's why Deadpool teleported Juggs away when Cable was about to blow his head off with his helmet gone.



With the wet cement example I wonder if Dooku's restraints on Kenobi in AOTC would be enough to hold Juggs.

[Surlethe]

How is concrete a liquid?
if you claim fresh concrete is a liquid. Then do this for me. And I'll admit defeat. Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

How is concrete a liquid?



You ever see a car make tracks in a solid?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Those blades, iirc, were magical, and Juggy has always had a known weakness to such things as, by his own words in the X-Men cartoon, "My powers are magical!". Its more likely that while teh swords did indeed hurt him, mind you obviosuly not enough to cause any real damage as he still has eyes and full vision so they were at best very very painful, a gun would likely not. The swords even couldnt have done much damage, because he still has eyes. If i got stabbed in the eye, i would have a hole where my eyeball is now, he does not. Which means...shit i dont know. But one either must conclude the sword did very little actual damage but being magical caused him great pain, or he has very quick healing.

[Ghost Rider]

Those blades, iirc, were magical, and Juggy has always had a known weakness to such things as, by his own words in the X-Men cartoon, "My powers are magical!". Its more likely that while teh swords did indeed hurt him, mind you obviosuly not enough to cause any real damage as he still has eyes and full vision so they were at best very very painful, a gun would likely not. The swords even couldnt have done much damage, because he still has eyes. If i got stabbed in the eye, i would have a hole where my eyeball is now, he does not. Which means...shit i dont know. But one either must conclude the sword did very little actual damage but being magical caused him great pain, or he has very quick healing.

Going "It magical!!!" is a sad dodge, since Wolverine blocked those blades with his claws. So unless somewhere it's been stated he has Superman level weakness to MAGIC, it's bullshit to use it as an excuse of any level.

Also in that very page how is Feral making any claw marks in his skin if he's got any sort of uber 100000000000000000 YT shield?

[18-Till-I-Die]

I'm not excusing it, or even saying it will help Juggernaut. I'm merely pointing out that while those swords did hurt him, they seemed to have left no permenant injury. Eyes arent very durable, he should be blind if he was stabbed with swords in his eyes. The fact he isnt means that something is amiss. I dont know what, i would guess that the writers didnt think that far ahead. But one must wonder why he isnt blind if the swords actually stuck through his eyes, or even damaged them.

Look i'm not trying to even say he'll win, i made my opinion clear. I think that the tactic of tractoring him into space and leaving them there is quite viable and would be the best way to win the fight easily. I think either Sidius or Dukoo are smart enough to do this. If that fails they can certainly find a way to cut off his helmet and skullcap and use Sith mind tricks to disable him, possibly bring him under their control. He IS a retard, it wouldnt be like corrupting Anakin or something, shit you or i could probably pull it off sans Force telepathy.

I'm simply commenting that the sword couldnt have actually damaged his eye, and couldnt have stuck in it. Either that or he heals very fast which is a posibility i find completely probable.

[Ghost Rider]

The point is he got hurt, he showed physical damage. He also demonstrated accelerated healing.

So how can he have Uber forcefield if something that doesn't demonstrate anything of the nature of the limits others have presented.

Sure this is a low end, but if the low end is this far down, you begin to question the viability of the high end.