[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[18-Till-I-Die]

Ok i didnt know weather or not he had a healing factor. If so then that would explain the situation quite nicely. The sword probably did blinde him and he just healed thw ound (still in a shockingly short time frame).

The only answer i can guess to the inconsistancies is this. He needs time, seconds maybe, and concentration to raise up this field. It isnt 'on' all the time. Otherwise he's just a big brick with accelerated healing powers.

Does this seem plausible? I confess Juggernaut isnt a character i'm immediately familar with other than his peridotic appearances.

And of course this still doesnt mean he'll win, just a thought however as to rationalizing the inconsistances. Cause the higher end feats do seem to exist (as far as i know, i may be wrong of course) so the low end mean something is amiss (in reality of course the writers changed various times and teh succeeding ones didnt read what the previous batch had written, or cared, so huge inconsistances develop).

[Lost Soal]

Going "It magical!!!" is a sad dodge, since Wolverine blocked those blades with his claws. So unless somewhere it's been stated he has Superman level weakness to MAGIC, it's bullshit to use it as an excuse of any level.

Just a small point about magical weaknesses. Having a magical property does not mean that the sword is necessarily any more powerfull than and ordinary sword, just that its capable of penetrating Juggernaughts shield because of this property.
A comparable example can be drawn from Vampires. Shove a steel sword through their heart and it'll be fine. Make it wooden and it will kill the vampire. Same thing with warewolves and Silver

[Lukedanieljames]

if Juggy can walk across the ocean floors, the deepest point in the ocean is the
Deepest Point in the World (and Pacific Ocean)
Challenger Deep, Mariana Trench, Western Pacific Ocean: 35,840 feet / 10,924 meters
so according to this site,
http://www.onr.navy.mil/focus/ocean/water/pressure1.htm

its 14.7 psi per 33 feet so,
15964.2 psi on the bottom,

so that amounts to millions of pounds on his body, so we know he's strong enough to push through almost anything.

Ok, I'll bite. What matters on the ocean floor is the pressure difference, not the absolute hydrostatic pressure. Lungs, air-filled abdominal viscera, ear canals all collapse because they are filled with air; the pressure difference between the outside (thousands of PSI) and the inside of the organ (1 atm) leads to a collapse of the structure until the pressure is equalized (no air). Your muscles and cells are mostly water and devoid of air and thus would be already equalized with the surrounding pressure.

All this tells us is that Juggernaut either has a)no air filled internal cavities or structures b) lungs and organs that can collapse perfectly without sticking allowing them to inflate after leaving the floor (as well as having an amazing ability to store excess oxygen in his muscles like a whale) or c)a completely rigid and enclosed rib shell that can can withstand the pressure on the floor. Note that this makes breathing largely impossible.

His ability to push through anything as you call it is dependent on his muscles and skeletal dimensions. His arms muscles, leg muscles, chest muscles could care less what the outside pressure is. Deep sea fish survive in the deep ocean (3000-5000PSI) not because they have uber wank muscles, but because their tissues are devoid of internal air cavities and have become equalized with the surrounding pressure.

Do you seriously think the muscles on a deep sea fish could deadlift thousands of pounds?

Walking on the bottom of the ocean is an impressive feat, but tells us little about muscularture.

oK, i conceed this, so juggernaugt isn't filled with any open area's in order to do this, he's completely solid then i guess.

[Lukedanieljames]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

Well if he was tricked into walking on wet cement he'd have to wait until it dried, pretty obvious

[ali-sama]

Huh? repeat that in english.

I never clamied shit. Learn to read, shit for brains. I used comic isntances for the real debate and posted pages to proove them.
How is concrete a liquid?
if you claim fresh concrete is a liquid. Then do this for me. And I'll admit defeat. Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

Heres a word for you to learn. It's called "Viscosity". Wet cement is a thick and viscous fluid.
BTW if its not a fluid, how the Hell do you think they pour it.

learn about concrete
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete/[ ... ki/Liquid/

Concrete is placed in a wet or plastic state, and therefore can be manipulated and molded as needed. Hydration and hardening of concrete may lead to tensile stresses at a time when it has not yet gained significant strength, resulting in shrinkage cracks. However, when concrete mix is placed in accordance with the best recommended practice, cracking may be minimal.

[ali-sama]

Those blades, iirc, were magical, and Juggy has always had a known weakness to such things as, by his own words in the X-Men cartoon, "My powers are magical!". Its more likely that while teh swords did indeed hurt him, mind you obviosuly not enough to cause any real damage as he still has eyes and full vision so they were at best very very painful, a gun would likely not. The swords even couldnt have done much damage, because he still has eyes. If i got stabbed in the eye, i would have a hole where my eyeball is now, he does not. Which means...shit i dont know. But one either must conclude the sword did very little actual damage but being magical caused him great pain, or he has very quick healing.

Going "It magical!!!" is a sad dodge, since Wolverine blocked those blades with his claws. So unless somewhere it's been stated he has Superman level weakness to MAGIC, it's bullshit to use it as an excuse of any level.

Also in that very page how is Feral making any claw marks in his skin if he's got any sort of uber 100000000000000000 YT shield?

http://marvel.com/universe/index.htm
click on bios of juggernaught

uggernaut is vulnerable to magical forces of sufficient strength.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individu ... erstar.htm

his sword is magica and from another dimension.

1. In New Mutants #100, a group of non-human (as testified by Feral)
warriors came after Shatterstar. If they were fakes, why did one of them
make a reference to "the downtime arena games," when there were only his
own comrades around to hear it?

2. In X-Force #4, we discover that Shatterstar's swords were "forged in a
dimension of magic and science." Otherwise, there is no way they would
have been able to cut through the mystic bonds that connect Juggernaut's
helmet.

3. In the X-Factor Shattershot annual, Spiral foretells that the fighting
on Mojoworld will not cease until it is ruled by the male child of a human
and an Arize-spawn. That child's name is... Shatterstar.

4. In the X-Force Shattershot annual, we see a possible future where
Shatterstar does rule. (this one is weak, but it is still evidence)

5. In X-Force #29-30, Arcade is hired by Major Domo to test Shatterstar.
Once again, we have the dog soldiers who babble about Shatterstar's arena
fighting. Also, we are introduced to the concept of Shatterstar's wife,
Windsong. Arcade is not talking about Major Domo, etc., just to deceive
Shatterstar, because he tells Ms. Locke to contact Major Domo when
Shatterstar is not present!

6. In X-Men #10, Dazzler is pregnant and makes the remark to Longshot
(regarding their future child's name) - "Shatterstar? You've got to be
kidding!" Unfortunately, Shatterstar has also explained that he comes
from 100 years in Longshot's future, so this cannot be reconciled,
unless... Perhaps, just perhaps, Spiral or someone kidnapped Dazzler's
child, either as an infant or even as a fetus, took him into the future,
and raised him as an arena warrior, convincing him
that he had been "genetically engineered."

[ali-sama]

How is concrete a liquid?
if you claim fresh concrete is a liquid. Then do this for me. And I'll admit defeat. Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

How is concrete a liquid?



You ever see a car make tracks in a solid?

[DPDarkPrimus]

Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

You seem to have forgotten about a little thing called density. Liquids can be too dense for one to maneuver in, at least as much as swimming requires.

Quicksand is a liquid, you know.

[ali-sama]

Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

You seem to have forgotten about a little thing called density. Liquids can be too dense for one to maneuver in, at least as much as swimming requires.

Quicksand is a liquid, you know.

no. Wet cement is not a liquid. read my above post.

Quicksand is loose, water-logged soil that yields easily to weight or pressure. It can be formed when sand, silt, clay, or other grainy soil is saturated or supersaturated by water flowing from below ground (such as from an underground spring) with enough pressure to separate and suspend the grains. The undisturbed sand often is or appears solid until some shock or sudden increase in pressure, such as a person stepping on it, causes it to liquify and lose its friction.

Quicksand is not as dangerous as depicted in many movies. Because quicksand is denser than the human body, a person will float in it. As quicksand is rarely more than a few feet deep, there is usually little danger of sinking below the surface. Furthermore, even when the quicksand is deep enough, deliberate effort is required to sink below the surface, as the human body is much more buoyant in quicksand than water. The sand's higher density will gradually push a human body upward, eventually allowing one to paddle toward more solid footing. Typically, the greatest danger of getting stuck in quicksand comes from exposure, starvation, flash flooding, or tidal flooding.

Quicksand can be found inland (on riverbanks or in marshes) or near the coast. It can also form when an earthquake increases groundwater pressure, forcing the water to the surface and allowing buildings to sink into the ground.

One region notorious for its quicksands is Morecambe Bay, England. As the bay is very broad and shallow, a person trapped by the quicksand would be exposed to the danger of the returning tide, which can come in very rapidly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_sand/

quicksand is a suspension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_%28chemistry%29

In chemistry, a suspension is a colloidal dispersion (mixture) in which a finely-divided species is combined with another species, with the former being so finely divided and mixed that it doesn't rapidly settle out. In everyday life, the most common suspensions are those of solids in liquid water.

A suspension of liquid droplets or fine solid particles in a gas is called an aerosol. In the atmosphere these consist of fine dust and soot particles, sea salt, biogenic and volcanogenic sulfates, nitrates, and cloud droplets.

The term is widely used in Earth sciences to describe the transport of sediments in rivers and oceans. Particles that are suspended remain suspended so long as energy (provided in the form of a current) is applied to the system. The amount of energy determines the maximum size of particle that can be suspended. In the absence of additional energy (agitation), all particles down to colloidal size will eventually settle out into a distinct phase.

It is important to distinguish suspensions from solutions which do not separate over any period of time because the intermolecular forces between the different types of molecules are of similar strength to the attraction between molecules of the same type. Entropy is then sufficient to keep a solution mixed without the need for the external input of energy which a suspension requires.
[edit]

Common examples

* Mayonnaise is a colloidal suspension of water and vinegar droplets in edible oil, emulsified by egg yolk
* Gelatin is a suspension of water in a matrix of protein
* Butter is a suspension of water in butterfat globules
* Ice cream is a suspension of microscopic ice crystals in cream
* Mud or muddy water, is where soil, clay, or silt particles are suspended in water.

[Lord Pounder]

Jesus this is painful to watch. If you comic twats wanna wank out how about this, Palpatine has pretty heavy pre-cog. He knows all Juggies weaknessed already. In the street leading to his office he plants a pit of wet cement. Juggies danders down the street planning to kill what he thinks is a weak senator and he falls in the wet cement, oh noes! While the cement is hardening Palpatine takes one of those groovy shuttes seen all over the galaxy, Padame had a large shuttle and several fighters at her service as senator, he uses it's tractor beam to bring him into space. Sure juggie might be able to move while suspended by TK, but a Tractor Beam doesn't just lift you, it holds you in place. Quick jump to hyperspace and Palpatine dumps him in the Maw, if one black hole might fuck him up what are several dozen at close proximity gonna do to the ugly goon.

[ali-sama]

Jesus this is painful to watch. If you comic twats wanna wank out how about this, Palpatine has pretty heavy pre-cog. He knows all Juggies weaknessed already. In the street leading to his office he plants a pit of wet cement. Juggies danders down the street planning to kill what he thinks is a weak senator and he falls in the wet cement, oh noes! While the cement is hardening Palpatine takes one of those groovy shuttes seen all over the galaxy, Padame had a large shuttle and several fighters at her service as senator, he uses it's tractor beam to bring him into space. Sure juggie might be able to move while suspended by TK, but a Tractor Beam doesn't just lift you, it holds you in place. Quick jump to hyperspace and Palpatine dumps him in the Maw, if one black hole might fuck him up what are several dozen at close proximity gonna do to the ugly goon.

your not following the opener. an just becauyse i belvie juggernaut will win does not make me a comic book wank.
the fight initates in the consoul chamber not before
sure he has a personal shuttle. He has to call it no?
Aslo you have to think. How would the jedi react to 2 powerfull dark force users. Also we need a limit on papl's psychological attacks.

[Meest]

Yes it is wank, swords which Wolverine's "non-magical" claws can block can cut Juggy's tin can open and pierce his body. A guy who gets knocked out when Hulk screams really loudly in his mind, gets trapped in wet cement, gets scratched by mutant cat claws etc etc. Who has a weakness to attacks on his mind and opponents with range. Against 2 opponents who have special attacks in that area.

[Darth Wong]

Ali-sama, I hate semantics-whoring. The point is that wet cement obviously acts like an extremely viscous liquid, and it doesn't fucking matter whether it's a "true" liquid or a mixture of solid particulates and liquids. That distinction has absolutely nothing to do with the point, and if you make one more semantic-whoring post about whether it fits the technical definition of a "real" liquid, I will fucking ban you immediately, and without any warnings or appeals. It's a fucking pointless thread hijack which has absolutely nothing to do with the point, and it's against our rules, not to mention the fact that for the second time, I hate semantics-whoring.

So much as one more fucking word from you about this totally irrelevant "is it a real liquid" semantic-whoring bullshit and you are history. Is that clear?

[Darth Wong]

So ... anyone care to address the fact that you can defeat Juggernaut with wet cement?

Well if he was tricked into walking on wet cement he'd have to wait until it dried, pretty obvious

Or if a large quantity of wet cement (or some similar substance) was dumped on him. Either way, the point is that he would be incapacitated for a long period; in the quoted incident he was incapacitated for weeks. That is easily enough time for Palpatine to move him into space and drop him into a star, where he will be unable to do anything but scream in impotent rage for eternity.

[Lord Pounder]

your not following the opener. an just becauyse i belvie juggernaut will win does not make me a comic book wank.
the fight initates in the consoul chamber not before

Palpatine has pretty strong pre-cog he can spring the cement trap any time he choses

sure he has a personal shuttle. He has to call it no?

Don't be such a twat, how hard is it to get on a comm and get the pilot to fly it over, on in some cases ships of important SW guys have had automated beckon calls, one touch of the remote and the ship comes to Palpatine.

Aslo you have to think. How would the jedi react to 2 powerfull dark force users.

Yeah because they felt it for years when Palpatine was using the Force to fuck up the Jedi's own precog and don't forget Maul was trained and lived on Coruscant, killing several Jedi during his time there, and they never detected him, nor did they detect Dooku's seduction to the Dark.

Also we need a limit on papl's psychological attacks.

Why? you certainly seem happy to give Juggie no limits. Or is no limits only allowed when it's your side of the debate. Besides in case you didn't notice in my senario Palpatine doesn't use any psycological attacks, only precog.

Incidently what is your first language Ali, because maybe you wanna look at your own spelling and grammer before you make comments about any one repeating posts in English. Have a nice day, fucker.

[Stark]

Huh? repeat that in english.

I just had to single this out. Ali-sama, ignorant trog, being critical of someone's english! Ahh, the irony...

I never clamied shit. Learn to read, shit for brains. I used comic isntances for the real debate and posted pages to proove them.

Do you not know how debating works? I thus far haven't seen you support jack. Oh and by the way, isntances, proove.

How is concrete a liquid?
if you claim fresh concrete is a liquid. Then do this for me. And I'll admit defeat. Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

Okay you lameass little tard. He CAN FLY. If he can easily move without touching the ground, why does his EXPRESSLY STATE that he'll be fine once he touches the bottom in the cement example? This example - in my opinion - defeats the 'unstoppable flying' argument, and the 'unstoppable by definition' argument. What's your rebuttal? A whole bunch of spelling mistakes and flailing. Thanks for playing, you tarted-up little cuntrag.

@ Bear - thanks for the information. I guess Spiderman can knock Juggy around because he's super-strong? At least I know where he walks under the ocean now.

[The Yosemite Bear]

1. being that he is like superman vulnerable to "magical" and "psi" forces and basically has the willpower of a redneck who was molested as a child. once his helmet is off you can force chock him to death, since his coustume doesn't offer full protection against magical forces he should have no defense besides his hulk lkie healing and strength against getting zapped by force lightning. However Cytorax is libel to note that his minion on earth, that allows him to fuck with things in our universe, is in danger and may teleport juggernaught out of harms way, like he has done in a clash with the hulk in the past. Since the only means that Cytorax has of influencing earth since his banishment eons ago is currently in Juggernaught's possession....

[Stark]

1. being that he is like superman vulnerable to "magical" and "psi" forces and basically has the willpower of a redneck who was molested as a child. once his helmet is off you can force chock him to death, since his coustume doesn't offer full protection against magical forces he should have no defense besides his hulk lkie healing and strength against getting zapped by force lightning. However Cytorax is libel to note that his minion on earth, that allows him to fuck with things in our universe, is in danger and may teleport juggernaught out of harms way, like he has done in a clash with the hulk in the past. Since the only means that Cytorax has of influencing earth since his banishment eons ago is currently in Juggernaught's possession....

How is his helmet attached? Sometimes it seems bolted, sometimes it seems to sit flush, and sometimes there's an obvious seam where his helmet meets the armour.

In what cases had Cytorax intervened directly? For example, when he got dumped in cement he could have been teleported out. When he was teleported away from the Hulk, was he in significant danger?

[Lost Soal]

1. being that he is like superman vulnerable to "magical" and "psi" forces and basically has the willpower of a redneck who was molested as a child. once his helmet is off you can force chock him to death, since his coustume doesn't offer full protection against magical forces he should have no defense besides his hulk lkie healing and strength against getting zapped by force lightning.

The Juggernaught can survive indefinately without Oxygen. The point of choking someone is to cut off their supply of oxygen. Force chokeing won't do anything to him.

[The Yosemite Bear]

1. being that he is like superman vulnerable to "magical" and "psi" forces and basically has the willpower of a redneck who was molested as a child. once his helmet is off you can force chock him to death, since his coustume doesn't offer full protection against magical forces he should have no defense besides his hulk lkie healing and strength against getting zapped by force lightning.

The Juggernaught can survive indefinately without Oxygen. The point of choking someone is to cut off their supply of oxygen. Force chokeing won't do anything to him.

then why did it work when onslaught put him in a sleeper hold?

[The Yosemite Bear]

1. being that he is like superman vulnerable to "magical" and "psi" forces and basically has the willpower of a redneck who was molested as a child. once his helmet is off you can force chock him to death, since his coustume doesn't offer full protection against magical forces he should have no defense besides his hulk lkie healing and strength against getting zapped by force lightning. However Cytorax is libel to note that his minion on earth, that allows him to fuck with things in our universe, is in danger and may teleport juggernaught out of harms way, like he has done in a clash with the hulk in the past. Since the only means that Cytorax has of influencing earth since his banishment eons ago is currently in Juggernaught's possession....

How is his helmet attached? Sometimes it seems bolted, sometimes it seems to sit flush, and sometimes there's an obvious seam where his helmet meets the armour.

In what cases had Cytorax intervened directly? For example, when he got dumped in cement he could have been teleported out. When he was teleported away from the Hulk, was he in significant danger?

Well only once has the actual Jewel of cytorax been in danger, it's like the ring of Sauron, cytorax doesn't care about marko, he care's about his only link to this demension.

[Stark]

Well only once has the actual Jewel of cytorax been in danger, it's like the ring of Sauron, cytorax doesn't care about marko, he care's about his only link to this demension.

Ah I see. That jewel is inside Juggernaut, right?

[Lost Soal]

1. being that he is like superman vulnerable to "magical" and "psi" forces and basically has the willpower of a redneck who was molested as a child. once his helmet is off you can force chock him to death, since his coustume doesn't offer full protection against magical forces he should have no defense besides his hulk lkie healing and strength against getting zapped by force lightning.

The Juggernaught can survive indefinately without Oxygen. The point of choking someone is to cut off their supply of oxygen. Force chokeing won't do anything to him.

then why did it work when onslaught put him in a sleeper hold?

I've read that whining lament to Jug, on geocities we were directed to and while he's mentioned all the instances where Jug is harm when he supposedly shouldn't be, there is no mention of him being placed in a sleeper hold by Onslaught.

Ah I see. That jewel is inside Juggernaut, right?

Normally, no. That one instance with Onslaught is apparently the only time its been there. If I recall correctly, from what sites I've read, he's had his powers stolen by someone else, shared the power with Tom whatsisname, and thrown it into space to stop anyone else using it. None of which could have happened if it was inside of him.
Quick, completely unsupported, supposition. Onslaught invaded his mind and made him believe he was having it ripped out of him. Explains how when he woke up he was still the Juggernaught.

[Plekhanov]

I never clamied shit. Learn to read, shit for brains. I used comic isntances for the real debate and posted pages to proove them.
How is concrete a liquid?
if you claim fresh concrete is a liquid. Then do this for me. And I'll admit defeat. Hire a construction compnay to fill a pool with fresh concrete and film yourself diving in and swiming in it. After all . You claim it's a liquid. therefore you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim.
Ali

I don’t normally post in fantasy debates but this is so awe inspiringly stupid I just have to respond.

THE DEFINITION OF ‘LIQUID’ IS NOT "A SUBSTANCE THAT YOU CAN SWIM IN". As most school children know liquid is the state of matter in which it will take the shape of the container that holds it whilst its volume remains constant. Guess what concrete (at least up till the point where it sets which is not what we’re talking about) fits that definition quite nicely, if this wasn’t the case it would be rather difficult to “pour” concrete which if you weren’t such a fucking idiot you’d have realised is one of it’s most useful properties.

Your ability to swim in something or has got fuck all to do with it. If swimming is the key then please go take a dip in liquid oxygen or iron because after all according to you “you should be able to swim in it like any liquid.
have a fun swim”.

[Civil War Man]

The Juggernaught can survive indefinately without Oxygen. The point of choking someone is to cut off their supply of oxygen. Force chokeing won't do anything to him.

A high-end choke (like what Vader does all the time) also cracks the vertebrae and potentially severs the spinal chord. I imagine that his healing factor would eventually take care of a problem like this, but I seriously doubt that Juggernaught could walk off a neck snapping as if it were nothing.