Help with getting some sense into some trekkies for a sim.

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Ted
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Help with getting some sense into some trekkies for a sim.

Post by Ted »

There's a possible sim that I'm gonna join up in, and the guy who's running it is practically a trekkie, which is fine if you're doing a 1920's wargame, but not if you're doing a space sim, which the next one will be.

Marina knows these people and might be able to help knock some sense into them.
FldMrslTed (5:21:38 PM): if you wanna good place for a good and fair debate on SWvsST, go to the message board at bbs.stardestroyer.net
SolarMx (5:21:53 PM): I have been there and it is not a good site
FldMrslTed (5:22:01 PM): it is a very good site
SolarMx (5:22:03 PM): It is not logical or accuate
SolarMx (5:22:49 PM): Michael Wong is dumbass
SolarMx (5:22:50 PM): He twists things to suit his ideas
SolarMx (5:22:50 PM): I have used the site for some stuff but I consider it weak
SolarMx (5:23:00 PM): His B5 site is just as weak
FldMrslTed (5:23:32 PM): he doesn't have a B5 site
SolarMx (5:23:42 PM): Yeah he does
FldMrslTed (5:23:47 PM): oh?
SolarMx (5:23:47 PM): He writes under another name
FldMrslTed (5:23:50 PM): oh?
SolarMx (5:23:53 PM): Let me get the URL
FldMrslTed (5:23:54 PM): what name?
SolarMx (5:24:11 PM): http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm
Now a few things are wrong with this, first saying Wong is a dumbass, the second saying under a pseudonym that Wong wrote the B5tech site.

Another one who's involved is much more of a trekkie than the previously mentioned one.
I am sure Don has a more complete response to this but...

"Anti-matter is an incredibly stupid means of power. If the containment fields went down, bye bye ship, whereever the plant is located. A cold fusion plant would be much better.
And anti-matter is limited by the amount that you can get into the reactor at a time, a few kilo's a sec, which is standard, isn't enough to power a ship to hyperspace."

1. Anti-Matter is many orders of magnitude more efficient than fusion reactors for many reasons. There is a reason the anti-matter tanks are in the middle of a ship burried very deep, by the time someone can hit them you are all already dead because the ship has lost power and most likley its atmosphere and all else necessary to make it effective.

The difference in output between fusion and anti matter is about the difference between a coal and nuclear power on a volume/weight ratio.

2. Warp speed as you describe it is realtivly undeveloped in the ST series. Don is much more capable than I of explaining how this works in the sim, but the ultimate in travel is not anything like Star Wars.

3. SW weapons rely completly on heat for their killing power. We have plasma today. In 20 years weapons like that could be developed.

Phasers on the other hand are whole orders of magnitude more effective weapons. You cannot just disrupt the beam with shields, to stop energy you have to put something in front of it. Shields lose power because the weapons attacking it "use" that power faster than it can be generated and replaced.

If Phasers impacted with armor they would not only degenerate the atoms as you say but they would essentially vaporize the very structure of the armor itself. Lasers and Plasma are heat based weapons. Phasers destroy the very structure of any element they come into contact with. A very large phaser, like the one mounted on a starship, are essentially focused nuclear weapons.

There is a reason Don considers Trek more advanced. It is a hundred thousand times more efficient. There is a reason that ships in Star Wars are huge monstrosities, they are not efficient. They are using near future technology and just massivly engineering it. Ion Engines are a thing of today. They exist now. Impulse Engines are a long time comming because they are far far more advanced. Whomever designed Star Wars stuff did it totally backasswards. I mean the Death Star is as big as a moon to destroy planets. Just load up a Star Destroyer with nucs its far more efficient. I am done for now.
Several stupid comments about ST being more efficent because it is smaller, etc...

How should I respond to both, and the last one mainly?
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Post by data_link »

For SolarMx:

1. Exactly where do you get the idea that MW has anything to do with the B5Tech site?
2. Why do you think that saying that a ship with 200 GT turbolasers is enough to completely overwheml anything the Federation has is "twisting things to suit his ideas?"
3. Why do you select only the evidence that you like and discard that which you don't?
4. Are you aware that that is a dishonest debating technique?
5. Do you consider Darkstar's site superior to that of Mike Wong? (If he answers yes to this question, you have absolutely no hope of reasoning with him.)

For the second:

1. If anti-matter is so safe, then why does it need to be stored so deep within the hull?
2. If anti-matter is so effective, then why do we never hear of Federation starships that put out more energy than a planetary society will use in it's entire lifetime?
3. Prove that fusion nessecarily refers to nuclear fusion.
4. Prove that it's even relevant considering that most large SW ships use hypermatter reactors.
5. Warp speed being underdeveloped in ST is only more proof that federation tech is primitive.
6. Why should warp speed be the ultimate in travel? Remember that the fastest warp-capable vessel in existence hasn't even approached hyperdrive performance.
7. In reference to #3, How exactly do you propse that energy/plasma weapons 4000 times more powerful than the most largest nuclear weapon in the history of mankind are going to be produced in 20 years?
8. If the Federation is so advanced, then why do they have to resort to stupid phaser tricks to even affect the enemy's hull?
9. Why do shields even work after you said that "to stop the energy you have to put something in fromt of it?" Obviously, that's a lie.
10. Why is there anti-phaser armor if phasers disentigrate everything they come into contact with?
11. In particular, why do phasers have a much harder time destroying inorganic materials than organic materials?
12. Also, why are phasers less effective than 20th century bullets?
13. If phasers are essentially focused nuclear weapons, then you admit that they are 1/4000th as powerful as medium turbolasers, correct?
14. How exactly is Trek one hundred thousand times more efficient?
15. How does greater efficiency stand up to raw power? (note: don't use this question if he can't answer 14)
16. Why do you consider a small, filmsy ship like the Enterprise to be more effective than a simple and robust ship like an ISD?
17. Isn't that a style over substance fallacy?
18. Do you consider guns less effective than THELs (Tactical High Energy Lasers) because we've had kinetic weaons for thousands of years?
19. How exactly do you figure that any amount of Nukes is going to destroy a planet?
20. Can the Federation even build a moon-sized space station, esp. one that can destroy planets?
21. Do you even think before shooting your mouth off?

Hopefully, that should help.
data_link has resigned from the board after proving himself to be a relentless strawman-using asshole in this thread and being too much of a pussy to deal with the inevitable flames. Buh-bye.
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Post by Mr Bean »

How about some numbers to go along with that Data-Link?

2. If its so much better why then can even CIVILLIAN Craft in SW cross the Galaxy in mear Days while Military Vessels can do it in HOURS? If Voyager was so advanced why did crossing one QUADRENT take YEARS?

3. Bzzt Sorry, SW Uses EM/Heat Based Weapons NOT Heat Alone

Point him towards the SW VS ST in Five mintue Page on Wongs site :twisted:

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Post by paladin »

Saying MW is the author of B5tech.com is an insult to him. He would have better research on a B5 site.
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Re: Help with getting some sense into some trekkies for a si

Post by XaLEv »

FldMrslTed (5:21:38 PM): if you wanna good place for a good and fair debate on SWvsST, go to the message board at bbs.stardestroyer.net
SolarMx (5:21:53 PM): I have been there and it is not a good site
FldMrslTed (5:22:01 PM): it is a very good site
SolarMx (5:22:03 PM): It is not logical or accuate
SolarMx (5:22:49 PM): Michael Wong is dumbass
SolarMx (5:22:50 PM): He twists things to suit his ideas
SolarMx (5:22:50 PM): I have used the site for some stuff but I consider it weak
SolarMx (5:23:00 PM): His B5 site is just as weak
FldMrslTed (5:23:32 PM): he doesn't have a B5 site
SolarMx (5:23:42 PM): Yeah he does
FldMrslTed (5:23:47 PM): oh?
SolarMx (5:23:47 PM): He writes under another name
FldMrslTed (5:23:50 PM): oh?
SolarMx (5:23:53 PM): Let me get the URL
FldMrslTed (5:23:54 PM): what name?
SolarMx (5:24:11 PM): http://www.b5tech.com/index.htm
LOL!

I think I'll go post this over there.
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Post by Typhonis 1 »

o where will this sim take place?
Brotherhood of the Bear Monkey Clonemaster , Anti Care Bears League,
Bureaucrat and BOFH of the HAB,
Skunk Works director of the Mecha Maniacs,
Black Mage,

I AM BACK! let the SCIENCE commence!
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Post by Jason von Evil »

data_link wrote:For SolarMx:

1. Exactly where do you get the idea that MW has anything to do with the B5Tech site?
2. Why do you think that saying that a ship with 200 GT turbolasers is enough to completely overwheml anything the Federation has is "twisting things to suit his ideas?"
3. Why do you select only the evidence that you like and discard that which you don't?
4. Are you aware that that is a dishonest debating technique?
5. Do you consider Darkstar's site superior to that of Mike Wong? (If he answers yes to this question, you have absolutely no hope of reasoning with him.)

For the second:

1. If anti-matter is so safe, then why does it need to be stored so deep within the hull?
2. If anti-matter is so effective, then why do we never hear of Federation starships that put out more energy than a planetary society will use in it's entire lifetime?
3. Prove that fusion nessecarily refers to nuclear fusion.
4. Prove that it's even relevant considering that most large SW ships use hypermatter reactors.
5. Warp speed being underdeveloped in ST is only more proof that federation tech is primitive.
6. Why should warp speed be the ultimate in travel? Remember that the fastest warp-capable vessel in existence hasn't even approached hyperdrive performance.
7. In reference to #3, How exactly do you propse that energy/plasma weapons 4000 times more powerful than the most largest nuclear weapon in the history of mankind are going to be produced in 20 years?
8. If the Federation is so advanced, then why do they have to resort to stupid phaser tricks to even affect the enemy's hull?
9. Why do shields even work after you said that "to stop the energy you have to put something in fromt of it?" Obviously, that's a lie.
10. Why is there anti-phaser armor if phasers disentigrate everything they come into contact with?
11. In particular, why do phasers have a much harder time destroying inorganic materials than organic materials?
12. Also, why are phasers less effective than 20th century bullets?
13. If phasers are essentially focused nuclear weapons, then you admit that they are 1/4000th as powerful as medium turbolasers, correct?
14. How exactly is Trek one hundred thousand times more efficient?
15. How does greater efficiency stand up to raw power? (note: don't use this question if he can't answer 14)
16. Why do you consider a small, filmsy ship like the Enterprise to be more effective than a simple and robust ship like an ISD?
17. Isn't that a style over substance fallacy?
18. Do you consider guns less effective than THELs (Tactical High Energy Lasers) because we've had kinetic weaons for thousands of years?
19. How exactly do you figure that any amount of Nukes is going to destroy a planet?
20. Can the Federation even build a moon-sized space station, esp. one that can destroy planets?
21. Do you even think before shooting your mouth off?

Hopefully, that should help.
Remind me to never get in a debate with you.:P
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Post by data_link »

Hey Aya: Never get in a debate with me. :P
data_link has resigned from the board after proving himself to be a relentless strawman-using asshole in this thread and being too much of a pussy to deal with the inevitable flames. Buh-bye.
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Post by DodoBrd16 »

"SolarMx (5:23:00 PM): His B5 site is just as weak "
_______________________________________________________________________

From the many regulars of B5tech(( which I am apart of)) and the many very intelligent people(( which I am not apart of)) that haunt B5tech.com.

Bugger off you over done trekkie fanatic.

And if Mike wong and Tech Master are the same person, then I'm the High Lama of Tibet.
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Post by Soontir C'boath »

Aye aye aye....that guy's arguement is weak....a lowly Warsie like me can kick his butt.

Cyaround,
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Post by Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi »

If Wong had a B5 site, there would be a link to it on his site. There isn't. And, he doesn't "twist his ideas". He gets his calculations from canon and offical material, calculations, and as for the "dumbass part", I wonder if this Trekkie is half as educated as Wong.
There is a reason Don considers Trek more advanced. It is a hundred thousand times more efficient. There is a reason that ships in Star Wars are huge monstrosities, they are not efficient. They are using near future technology and just massivly engineering it. Ion Engines are a thing of today. They exist now. Impulse Engines are a long time comming because they are far far more advanced. Whomever designed Star Wars stuff did it totally backasswards. I mean the Death Star is as big as a moon to destroy planets. Just load up a Star Destroyer with nucs its far more efficient. I am done for now.
The icing on the cake. The DS is the size of a small moon, but has a mauch larger power-to-size ratio than anything the Federation has produced, and even more efficent than an ISD. If you caled the DS superlaser down to the size of an HTL, you'd have yottaton power. SW ships are bigger because they are far more powerful, and are far more efficent than any Federation ship. This is the kind of stuff Mike refutes in his "SW vs ST in 5 minutes" page.
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Post by XaLEv »

Hey Ted, a guy at B5tech just posted this:
I just talked to the guy, SolarMx. Apparently those aren't his words, they were typed up by FldMrslTed. SolarMx runs a sci fi sim game and they were changing the format of play. FldMrslTed is an avid warsie and apparently they were straying from the Star Wars doctrine so he decided to dirty SolarMx's name. It should be noted that FldMrslTed is 15 years old.

Here is the conversation we had:
PsiOmega13: yo
SolarMx: Hello
PsiOmega13: oh first let me start, Hello I am Jeremy. I am a member of the Babylon 5 Tech Boards, my name there is Jadyn2114
SolarMx: Nice to meet you Jeremy
PsiOmega13: Nice to meet you too
SolarMx: How may I help you?
PsiOmega13: pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon...=870.topic
SolarMx: I never knew this EZBoard existed. Nice to see there is one.
PsiOmega13: so why do you say B5 tech is weak ?
SolarMx: I am sorry but I did not say that. I am currently planning a sim based almost entirely on B5 tech. I happen to like it most of all.
PsiOmega13: b5 Tech.com
SolarMx: Yes I happen to like that site. I don't understand your question.
PsiOmega13: have you checked out the web page i sent you
SolarMx: I have not recieved anything but I will check.
PsiOmega13: i sent you the link to the site in this conversation
SolarMx: I have no e-mail. Where did you send them to?
PsiOmega13: in the conversation
PsiOmega13: pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon...=870.topic
SolarMx: I did not read it but I will - hold on.
SolarMx: Interesting conversation.
SolarMx: I do not see what it has to do with B5Tech.com though.
PsiOmega13: SolarMx (5:23:00 PM): His B5 site is just as weak
FldMrslTed (5:23:32 PM): he doesn't have a B5 site
SolarMx (5:23:42 PM): Yeah he does
PsiOmega13: SolarMx (5:23:53 PM): Let me get the URL
FldMrslTed (5:23:54 PM): what name?
SolarMx (5:24:11 PM): www.b5tech.com/index.htm
PsiOmega13: so my question is why do you think that site is one owned by Mike Wong, and why do you think it is weak
SolarMx: First, you assume I said these things. You, as anyone should know, should know that it is easy to doctor a AIM conversation. Second, even if I did, I am entitled to my opinion. I can give you an assessment if you like.
PsiOmega13: you are entitled to your opinion, please do give me your assessment
SolarMx: I happen to think everything at the B5 site is first rate. Best on the net.
SolarMx: I do not happen to think the same can be said for the Star Wars vs Star Trek site.
SolarMx: I do not even know who runs the B5 site. I never bothered to look.
SolarMx: In fact. I have had nothing but praise for the B5 site and refer my players to often.
SolarMx: We use it as source material.
PsiOmega13: are those your words posted on SD.net and then reposted on the B5 Tech Forum
SolarMx: They are not. Ted is a 15 year old with a lot of growing up to do. He has made great strides in the last two years since he has been in my sims. He gets impassioned by many things. Cuurrently, on my board we are debating the style of the next sim. He lives and dies Star Wars. Anyone that is counter to that is under his skin.
SolarMx: Some of my comments have gotten under his skin.
SolarMx: I try to look past it, everyone has to walk before they can run.
PsiOmega13: can you provide me a link to your sim
SolarMx: Sure, just a moment
SolarMx: pub80.ezboard.com/bsolarsimulations
SolarMx: Yuo will find the information you desire in the General forum, under Next sim.
PsiOmega13: thank you
SolarMx: No problem.
PsiOmega13: Alright I will try to clear your name. Thank you for patience.
SolarMx: I was unaware my name needed clearing.
SolarMx: I will go one step further though
SolarMx: If any of your posters would be interested to sim they would be welcome here
SolarMx: People knowledgeable in the material are an assest
PsiOmega13: okay thank you
PsiOmega13: if you dont mind i will post this on the forum
SolarMx: Nice EXbaord btw
SolarMx: Is it yours?
PsiOmega13: no its Brandon Bays, the "Tech Master"
SolarMx: Kudos
SolarMx: I will would like to use to refer players to as well, if I may.
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Post by AzNtoccata »

Shame, shame, who's to blame?
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Post by data_link »

AzNtoccata wrote:Shame, shame, who's to blame?
N00b detected, initiating poking sequence:

3...


2...


1...


POKE
data_link has resigned from the board after proving himself to be a relentless strawman-using asshole in this thread and being too much of a pussy to deal with the inevitable flames. Buh-bye.
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Post by Evil Sadistic Bastard »

data_link wrote:
AzNtoccata wrote:Shame, shame, who's to blame?
N00b detected, initiating poking sequence:

3...


2...


1...


POKE
data_link, you are one cruel bastard.

Not that i care.
Believe in the sign of Hentai.

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Post by data_link »

Evil Sadistic Bastard wrote:
data_link wrote:
AzNtoccata wrote:Shame, shame, who's to blame?
N00b detected, initiating poking sequence:

3...


2...


1...


POKE
data_link, you are one cruel bastard.

Not that i care.
You're one to talk. :roll:
data_link has resigned from the board after proving himself to be a relentless strawman-using asshole in this thread and being too much of a pussy to deal with the inevitable flames. Buh-bye.
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Post by Evil Sadistic Bastard »

I am just evil. Jo0 are cruel.
And why the hell am I even saying this, I wanted to see a poking scene involving shapened logs and b- uh, never mind.
Believe in the sign of Hentai.

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Post by DodoBrd16 »

Damn straight B5tech is a great site :p
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Post by BrandonBray »

Actually B5 Tech is need of improvement... I should know I built it.

I just got a rather LONG letter from Mr. SolarMx about this whole issue, as it apparently caused him great distress.

The letter consisted of an apology for any misunderstandings, a rather detailed description of the incident with Ted, and praise for the hard work I did at MY site and the work Mike Wong has done at THIS site.

No cry, no foul, no issue to speak of. :)

Of course, the question comes up. How did this B5 topic pop up in the Star Wars vs. Star Trek forum...? :lol:
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Post by DodoBrd16 »

Ya just did a huge freakin up grade not more then a few months ago TM. Lol.

Just get out them fan fictions!
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Post by Ted »

XaLEv wrote:Hey Ted, a guy at B5tech just posted this:
I just talked to the guy, SolarMx. Apparently those aren't his words, they were typed up by FldMrslTed. SolarMx runs a sci fi sim game and they were changing the format of play. FldMrslTed is an avid warsie and apparently they were straying from the Star Wars doctrine so he decided to dirty SolarMx's name. It should be noted that FldMrslTed is 15 years old.

Here is the conversation we had:
PsiOmega13: yo
SolarMx: Hello
PsiOmega13: oh first let me start, Hello I am Jeremy. I am a member of the Babylon 5 Tech Boards, my name there is Jadyn2114
SolarMx: Nice to meet you Jeremy
PsiOmega13: Nice to meet you too
SolarMx: How may I help you?
PsiOmega13: pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon...=870.topic
SolarMx: I never knew this EZBoard existed. Nice to see there is one.
PsiOmega13: so why do you say B5 tech is weak ?
SolarMx: I am sorry but I did not say that. I am currently planning a sim based almost entirely on B5 tech. I happen to like it most of all.
PsiOmega13: b5 Tech.com
SolarMx: Yes I happen to like that site. I don't understand your question.
PsiOmega13: have you checked out the web page i sent you
SolarMx: I have not recieved anything but I will check.
PsiOmega13: i sent you the link to the site in this conversation
SolarMx: I have no e-mail. Where did you send them to?
PsiOmega13: in the conversation
PsiOmega13: pub9.ezboard.com/fbabylon...=870.topic
SolarMx: I did not read it but I will - hold on.
SolarMx: Interesting conversation.
SolarMx: I do not see what it has to do with B5Tech.com though.
PsiOmega13: SolarMx (5:23:00 PM): His B5 site is just as weak
FldMrslTed (5:23:32 PM): he doesn't have a B5 site
SolarMx (5:23:42 PM): Yeah he does
PsiOmega13: SolarMx (5:23:53 PM): Let me get the URL
FldMrslTed (5:23:54 PM): what name?
SolarMx (5:24:11 PM): www.b5tech.com/index.htm
PsiOmega13: so my question is why do you think that site is one owned by Mike Wong, and why do you think it is weak
SolarMx: First, you assume I said these things. You, as anyone should know, should know that it is easy to doctor a AIM conversation. Second, even if I did, I am entitled to my opinion. I can give you an assessment if you like.
PsiOmega13: you are entitled to your opinion, please do give me your assessment
SolarMx: I happen to think everything at the B5 site is first rate. Best on the net.
SolarMx: I do not happen to think the same can be said for the Star Wars vs Star Trek site.
SolarMx: I do not even know who runs the B5 site. I never bothered to look.
SolarMx: In fact. I have had nothing but praise for the B5 site and refer my players to often.
SolarMx: We use it as source material.
PsiOmega13: are those your words posted on SD.net and then reposted on the B5 Tech Forum
SolarMx: They are not. Ted is a 15 year old with a lot of growing up to do. He has made great strides in the last two years since he has been in my sims. He gets impassioned by many things. Cuurrently, on my board we are debating the style of the next sim. He lives and dies Star Wars. Anyone that is counter to that is under his skin.
SolarMx: Some of my comments have gotten under his skin.
SolarMx: I try to look past it, everyone has to walk before they can run.
PsiOmega13: can you provide me a link to your sim
SolarMx: Sure, just a moment
SolarMx: pub80.ezboard.com/bsolarsimulations
SolarMx: Yuo will find the information you desire in the General forum, under Next sim.
PsiOmega13: thank you
SolarMx: No problem.
PsiOmega13: Alright I will try to clear your name. Thank you for patience.
SolarMx: I was unaware my name needed clearing.
SolarMx: I will go one step further though
SolarMx: If any of your posters would be interested to sim they would be welcome here
SolarMx: People knowledgeable in the material are an assest
PsiOmega13: okay thank you
PsiOmega13: if you dont mind i will post this on the forum
SolarMx: Nice EXbaord btw
SolarMx: Is it yours?
PsiOmega13: no its Brandon Bays, the "Tech Master"
SolarMx: Kudos
SolarMx: I will would like to use to refer players to as well, if I may.
HOLY FUCK!!!!!!!!!
We haven't even STARTED the game yet, it's due to start in like mid-April, it's sort of a hash out of what basically the thing is about.
And I've checked trough all his damn posts on the board, not once has he said b5tech.com
And I was 15 two years ago.
Now I think all those rumors about his so-called military service was true.
Go, tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.
AzNtoccata
Redshirt
Posts: 4
Joined: 2002-11-17 10:20pm

Post by AzNtoccata »

Yup...

Well anyway, first time here, came over from B5tech. *gasp*
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Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22459
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Post by Mr Bean »

Let the ritual poking BEGIN

(I know its comming)

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
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DodoBrd16
Padawan Learner
Posts: 155
Joined: 2002-07-06 02:00am

Post by DodoBrd16 »

Be careful Az....there are alot of sharks in this end of the pool ;)


"Its a nugget of pure green"
-Percy.
AzNtoccata
Redshirt
Posts: 4
Joined: 2002-11-17 10:20pm

Post by AzNtoccata »

Speaking of sharks, is it true if u hit the nose of a shark with a stick or something it will go away?
AzNtoccata
"Ahh! For my next trick, I shall fly around the room under my own power."
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