[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[Lukedanieljames]

A high-end choke (like what Vader does all the time) also cracks the vertebrae and potentially severs the spinal chord. I imagine that his healing factor would eventually take care of a problem like this, but I seriously doubt that Juggernaught could walk off a neck snapping as if it were nothing.

The hulk has punched juggy in the face without his helmet on several times in the comics, his neck is always fine, i don't think vader's TK is in the same league as a hulk punch. Juggy's spine has taken a pounding and kept on ticking

[Darth Wong]

I don't see why this even matters, when we already have the wet-cement solution.

[Lord Pounder]

A high-end choke (like what Vader does all the time) also cracks the vertebrae and potentially severs the spinal chord. I imagine that his healing factor would eventually take care of a problem like this, but I seriously doubt that Juggernaught could walk off a neck snapping as if it were nothing.

The hulk has punched juggy in the face without his helmet on several times in the comics, his neck is always fine, i don't think vader's TK is in the same league as a hulk punch. Juggy's spine has taken a pounding and kept on ticking

Can the Hulk punch a fleet of star Destroyers to the outter edges of a Star system, because Jedi can do that with TK, imagine what a Sith Lord can do.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

If I recall, that action actually killed the Jedi performing it.

[Elheru Aran]

If I recall, that action actually killed the Jedi performing it.

To be precise: a group of Jedi students channeled the Force through the temples of Yavin, bringing it to Dorsk 81, who used the massed amount of Force energy to hurl the Star Destroyers away.

[Lord Pounder]

If I recall, that action actually killed the Jedi performing it.

Yeah it did, but imagine what a less sever amount of power usage could do to if required.

[Noble Ire]

If I recall, that action actually killed the Jedi performing it.

To be precise: a group of Jedi students channeled the Force through the temples of Yavin, bringing it to Dorsk 81, who used the massed amount of Force energy to hurl the Star Destroyers away.

It should be noted that the chamber they preformed the feat in was specifically designed to channel force energy by Exar Kun (OT:ITW.)

[ali-sama]

I don't see why this even matters, when we already have the wet-cement solution.

yes but they have to be aware of it and it will only hold him temp

[Darth Wong]

I don't see why this even matters, when we already have the wet-cement solution.

yes but they have to be aware of it and it will only hold him temp

They don't need to hold him forever; holding him for an hour would be more than enough time to arrange transport to the Sun. And that's assuming they can't just simulate the resistance of wet cement with their Force TK. The fact that Jean Grey couldn't do it doesn't mean that it's impossible with TK; it only means that she doesn't have whatever control it takes to simulate the effect of wet cement. Either that, or there's some peculiar vulnerability in Marvelverse TK which Juggernaut is able to take advantage of or negate somehow.

[Enigma]

I don't see why this even matters, when we already have the wet-cement solution.

yes but they have to be aware of it and it will only hold him temp

They don't need to hold him forever; holding him for an hour would be more than enough time to arrange transport to the Sun. And that's assuming they can't just simulate the resistance of wet cement with their Force TK. The fact that Jean Grey couldn't do it doesn't mean that it's impossible with TK; it only means that she doesn't have whatever control it takes to simulate the effect of wet cement. Either that, or there's some peculiar vulnerability in Marvelverse TK which Juggernaut is able to take advantage of or negate somehow.

If meaning that holding juggy with TK then he's been shown to walk against it when he "turns on" his forcefield. Need something more or in addition to TK to slow him down.

[Surlethe]

yes but they have to be aware of it and it will only hold him temp

They don't need to hold him forever; holding him for an hour would be more than enough time to arrange transport to the Sun. And that's assuming they can't just simulate the resistance of wet cement with their Force TK. The fact that Jean Grey couldn't do it doesn't mean that it's impossible with TK; it only means that she doesn't have whatever control it takes to simulate the effect of wet cement. Either that, or there's some peculiar vulnerability in Marvelverse TK which Juggernaut is able to take advantage of or negate somehow.

If meaning that holding juggy with TK then he's been shown to walk against it when he "turns on" his forcefield. Need something more or in addition to TK to slow him down.

Something in addition, like ... oh, I don't know; maybe wet cement?

[Enigma]

They don't need to hold him forever; holding him for an hour would be more than enough time to arrange transport to the Sun. And that's assuming they can't just simulate the resistance of wet cement with their Force TK. The fact that Jean Grey couldn't do it doesn't mean that it's impossible with TK; it only means that she doesn't have whatever control it takes to simulate the effect of wet cement. Either that, or there's some peculiar vulnerability in Marvelverse TK which Juggernaut is able to take advantage of or negate somehow.

If meaning that holding juggy with TK then he's been shown to walk against it when he "turns on" his forcefield. Need something more or in addition to TK to slow him down.

Something in addition, like ... oh, I don't know; maybe wet cement?

If you mean generating a "wet cement" TK ability would not work since his own force field would most likely negate it. Using TK to grab some wet cement to fling at him? Makes no sense because even though I doubt Juggy is that stupid that once he sees Dooku or Sidious raise some wet cement to bury him in what is to stop Juggy from distracting their concentration by throwing objects at them? Isn't there something a lot more easier to trap him than wet cement?

Also, you can't just dump wet cement on him. Since the fight takes place in the Senate Chambers using wet cement is quite impractical.How is it going to trap him if he can easily escape? Think about it. Do you think that Juggy would open a door like anyone else to enter the chambers? No. He'll make his own. In other words big hole. But that is if he enters the room from the bottom so if the cement is poured onto him he'd just wade through to the exit. Damn this is going to be long winded so I'll just shorten this down. Wet cement would be useful if they had plenty of time and intel on Juggy. Ther are other ways. If they want to delay him and grab some prep time then all they have to do is quickly TK fling him out of the building and let him fall hundreds of feet and get a breather and figure what to do next.

Can't just say"Hey! Why not use wet cement? That'll sure slow him down until I find a means to dispose him."

Why hasn't wet cement used in every case that a hero encountered Juggy? The only other time Juggy was encased in a liquid substance was that issue when Juggy fell into a pit and was encased in liquid steel and then hardened. Other than that I don't know of other instances of wet cement or any other liquid used to delay Juggy.

The idea of using tractor beams is a good idea but they'll have to be creative with it. If it was me in Palpy's position then I'd use the tractor beam to hold him in place. Should it not stop him from moving then I'd use several tractor beams and use it to grab Juggy and play catch with him. Use one tractor beam to fling him to another TB and it'll catch him and fling him back to the first TB and so forth. This way he'll be disoriented is this was done fast enough. THEN plans on his disposal would be done but it would have to be quick.

[Stark]

Argue all you like, wet cement works. And seeing that JG can't hold Juggy with TK and extending that to 'TK cannot hold him' doesn't make much sense - as I've noted, Juggy can't fly. For all we know, lifting him higher so his shield couldn't touch the ground would work: but saying that he doesn't need to touch the ground to move when he's been disabled by wet cement and expressly stated that he'll be fine ONCE HE TOUCHES THE BOTTOM is, frankly, stupid. Or are we playing 'disregard all events except the ones that help Juggy'?

[Darth Wong]

If meaning that holding juggy with TK then he's been shown to walk against it when he "turns on" his forcefield. Need something more or in addition to TK to slow him down.

Assuming that all forms of TK are identical, and use the same mechanisms. I see no reason for this assumption.

[Darth Wong]

If you mean generating a "wet cement" TK ability would not work since his own force field would most likely negate it.

Why? You have some book of psionic forcefield physics that you haven't been showing us? Please, by all means, explain to us your profound understanding of telekinetic forcefield science.

Why should Jean Grey's TK be identical to every other form of TK? And what mechanism does Juggernaut use to walk despite this TK, since he can't fly and has no means of propulsion? Or is he just continuing on sheer momentum and people are misinterpreting the scene?

Using TK to grab some wet cement to fling at him? Makes no sense because even though I doubt Juggy is that stupid that once he sees Dooku or Sidious raise some wet cement to bury him in what is to stop Juggy from distracting their concentration by throwing objects at them? Isn't there something a lot more easier to trap him than wet cement?

They're much faster than he is, and they can use their TK at multi-kilometre ranges. It would not be difficult to nail him with wet cement or something similar. And you're still ignoring the point that Jean Grey obviously can't simulate the effect of wet cement. If the Sith can, then they can stop him with a wave of their hands.

Also, you can't just dump wet cement on him. Since the fight takes place in the Senate Chambers using wet cement is quite impractical.How is it going to trap him if he can easily escape? Think about it. Do you think that Juggy would open a door like anyone else to enter the chambers? No. He'll make his own. In other words big hole. But that is if he enters the room from the bottom so if the cement is poured onto him he'd just wade through to the exit.

He can't move properly in the wet cement. That's why he got trapped the first time.

Why hasn't wet cement used in every case that a hero encountered Juggy?

Because it's hard to pick up a large volume of wet cement with your hands, moron. But a Sith Lord could do it.

The idea of using tractor beams is a good idea but they'll have to be creative with it. If it was me in Palpy's position then I'd use the tractor beam to hold him in place. Should it not stop him from moving then I'd use several tractor beams and use it to grab Juggy and play catch with him. Use one tractor beam to fling him to another TB and it'll catch him and fling him back to the first TB and so forth. This way he'll be disoriented is this was done fast enough. THEN plans on his disposal would be done but it would have to be quick.

What difference does it make whether he's disoriented?

We know several things about Juggernaut:

1) He cannot fly
2) He cannot defy gravity
3) He is not strong enough to move through wet cement.
4) He has some kind of forcefield of unknown properties, which may interact with other peoples' forcefields (such as those of Jean Grey).

Given these facts, all you have to do is trap him with something which resists movement as much as wet cement does. In fact, given the enormous strength of SW engineering materials, it should not be difficult to simply clamp him between two big plates of military-grade hull plating, which would pin his arms and legs just as effectively as wet cement does.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Can a Sith generate a 'wet cement' field? I mean, what exactly does that mean? I'm sorry i just was thinking, do you mean generate the same resistance, or create a telekinetic quagmire like wet cement. Thats just a question to get a point clarified i already said i think the sith would win, by other means, i was just wondering how they would do this 'wet cement' field thing.


One thing though, i would go with just a tractor beam and screw the cement and helmet stuff. A tractor beam grabs him, tosses him into space, battle ends. Flawless victory.

The reason wet cement stops him is it is not a solid. Things that are solid, he has shown teh ablity to smash through with scarcely little effort. Putting him between two plates probably wouldnt have teh same effect. If, for some reason, you must trap him, you would need something like...actual wet cement. Or tar like a tarpit, or huge quantities of mud or quicksand. But it would be a bad idea to use a solid, as everything solid short of a planet has been put on, around or on top of this guy and doesnt stop him. Wet cement stops him because, not being a solid, he cant smash it just sink deeper, as i understand it. Like quicksand, the more he struggles the more gravity pulls him in. Once he hits the bottom, the SOLID bottom, he can again break free. Solids are useless, or appear to be; thick, dense or heavy and sticky liquids are viable.

Again, this wet cement thing is a misnomer. They couldnt possibly even know that about him. I doubt it would even strike them as an option. They'd try cutting him or shooting him, and when that fails, try to TK bash him. Likely this wouldnt work too well, since, just my opinion, but i doubt Force TK is vastly different from 'normal' TK. Eventually they'd go "Fuck this" and call in a fighter or shuttle to tractor him, drag him into deep space and leave him. Flawless victory (well not flawless, i'd imagine teh senate chamber would be reduced to a pile of pebbles and Dukoo/Sidious would be rather battered afterwards, they are hardly invulnerable, but i think fast enough to dodge most of his raged attacks which are relegated to tossing peices of stuff really, really, really hard).

[Gandalf]

Can a Sith generate a 'wet cement' field? I mean, what exactly does that mean? I'm sorry i just was thinking, do you mean generate the same resistance, or create a telekinetic quagmire like wet cement. Thats just a question to get a point clarified i already said i think the sith would win, by other means, i was just wondering how they would do this 'wet cement' field thing.

"Force walls" have been cast by Anakin and Dooku during their fight in AoTC. IIRC it kept them from jumping around like they did in other fights.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Can a Sith generate a 'wet cement' field? I mean, what exactly does that mean? I'm sorry i just was thinking, do you mean generate the same resistance, or create a telekinetic quagmire like wet cement. Thats just a question to get a point clarified i already said i think the sith would win, by other means, i was just wondering how they would do this 'wet cement' field thing.

"Force walls" have been cast by Anakin and Dooku during their fight in AoTC. IIRC it kept them from jumping around like they did in other fights.

I dont think that was what he meant. I think he meant, create an environment like a quagmire...of course i'm not sure which is why i ask. I know Force walls are possible, but i dont know if thats the same thing (seemed like he was referring to something else, or more 'exotic', than just a forcefield wall--but of course i may be misunderstanding).

[Noble Ire]

I dont think that was what he meant. I think he meant, create an environment like a quagmire...of course i'm not sure which is why i ask. I know Force walls are possible, but i dont know if thats the same thing (seemed like he was referring to something else, or more 'exotic', than just a forcefield wall--but of course i may be misunderstanding).

Well, some Jedi are capable of effecting their enviorment on a fairly minute level. Luminara Unduli was able to manipulate and levitate individual grains of sand in The Approaching Storm. I am unfamiliar with the Force itself actually being used to create a cement-like field, but in the right enviorment, a Jedi/Sith might be able to turn the ground into a cement-like mush given time (although it is doubtful they could do this in an urban, metal/paved area, at least not quickly.)

[Surlethe]

If you mean generating a "wet cement" TK ability would not work since his own force field would most likely negate it. Using TK to grab some wet cement to fling at him? Makes no sense because even though I doubt Juggy is that stupid that once he sees Dooku or Sidious raise some wet cement to bury him in what is to stop Juggy from distracting their concentration by throwing objects at them? Isn't there something a lot more easier to trap him than wet cement?

Quite probably. However, I wasn't talking about generating a "wet cement" TK ability. The Emperor has the resources of the entire fucking Empire at his disposal. There's no reason he and Dooku can't just leave the Senate chamber and have wet cement -- or the Star Wars equivalent thereto -- dumped on the Juggernaut.

Also, you can't just dump wet cement on him. Since the fight takes place in the Senate Chambers using wet cement is quite impractical.How is it going to trap him if he can easily escape? Think about it. Do you think that Juggy would open a door like anyone else to enter the chambers? No. He'll make his own. In other words big hole. But that is if he enters the room from the bottom so if the cement is poured onto him he'd just wade through to the exit. Damn this is going to be long winded so I'll just shorten this down. Wet cement would be useful if they had plenty of time and intel on Juggy. Ther are other ways. If they want to delay him and grab some prep time then all they have to do is quickly TK fling him out of the building and let him fall hundreds of feet and get a breather and figure what to do next.

Exactly. There's no reason for them not to do that; in fact, it's probably the first thing they're going to try.

Can't just say"Hey! Why not use wet cement? That'll sure slow him down until I find a means to dispose him."

Why hasn't wet cement used in every case that a hero encountered Juggy?

Because in every other encounter, the hero doesn't have complete control over a Galactic Empire.

[Enigma]

If meaning that holding juggy with TK then he's been shown to walk against it when he "turns on" his forcefield. Need something more or in addition to TK to slow him down.

Assuming that all forms of TK are identical, and use the same mechanisms. I see no reason for this assumption.

But we can't also assume that it is totally different that it would be effective against Juggy either. Then Force TK may or may not work.

[Enigma]

If you mean generating a "wet cement" TK ability would not work since his own force field would most likely negate it.

Why? You have some book of psionic forcefield physics that you haven't been showing us? Please, by all means, explain to us your profound understanding of telekinetic forcefield science.

Why should Jean Grey's TK be identical to every other form of TK? And what mechanism does Juggernaut use to walk despite this TK, since he can't fly and has no means of propulsion? Or is he just continuing on sheer momentum and people are misinterpreting the scene?

He was lifted up into the air by Jean Grey and he was able to walk on air by using his own forcefield.

Using TK to grab some wet cement to fling at him? Makes no sense because even though I doubt Juggy is that stupid that once he sees Dooku or Sidious raise some wet cement to bury him in what is to stop Juggy from distracting their concentration by throwing objects at them? Isn't there something a lot more easier to trap him than wet cement?

They're much faster than he is, and they can use their TK at multi-kilometre ranges. It would not be difficult to nail him with wet cement or something similar. And you're still ignoring the point that Jean Grey obviously can't simulate the effect of wet cement. If the Sith can, then they can stop him with a wave of their hands.

IF the Sith can? I do not recall the Sith or Jedi ever doing something similar to a wet cement TK. Are there sources that they can do this?

Also, you can't just dump wet cement on him. Since the fight takes place in the Senate Chambers using wet cement is quite impractical.How is it going to trap him if he can easily escape? Think about it. Do you think that Juggy would open a door like anyone else to enter the chambers? No. He'll make his own. In other words big hole. But that is if he enters the room from the bottom so if the cement is poured onto him he'd just wade through to the exit.

He can't move properly in the wet cement. That's why he got trapped the first time.

Because in the instance that he was fighting Spiderman I assume Juggy was lured or inadvertantly fell into wet cement? So that means that he had no solid ground for him to walk on. What makes you think that it would be the same if he was on solid ground? Granted he'd still be slowed down but I doubt no way near as slow as when he was sinking in the wet cement.

Why hasn't wet cement used in every case that a hero encountered Juggy?

Because it's hard to pick up a large volume of wet cement with your hands, moron. But a Sith Lord could do it.

WOW! You mean no superhero (ones with super strength or TK ability) has ever though of picking up a cement truck and dump cement on him? Or placing wet cement into a large bin and then dump it on him? Lure him to a construction site and dump wet cement on him?

The idea of using tractor beams is a good idea but they'll have to be creative with it. If it was me in Palpy's position then I'd use the tractor beam to hold him in place. Should it not stop him from moving then I'd use several tractor beams and use it to grab Juggy and play catch with him. Use one tractor beam to fling him to another TB and it'll catch him and fling him back to the first TB and so forth. This way he'll be disoriented is this was done fast enough. THEN plans on his disposal would be done but it would have to be quick.

What difference does it make whether he's disoriented?

We know several things about Juggernaut:

1) He cannot fly
2) He cannot defy gravity
3) He is not strong enough to move through wet cement.
4) He has some kind of forcefield of unknown properties, which may interact with other peoples' forcefields (such as those of Jean Grey).

Given these facts, all you have to do is trap him with something which resists movement as much as wet cement does. In fact, given the enormous strength of SW engineering materials, it should not be difficult to simply clamp him between two big plates of military-grade hull plating, which would pin his arms and legs just as effectively as wet cement does.

I don't have a good answer for that so I'll leave it at that.

[Enigma]

Why hasn't wet cement used in every case that a hero encountered Juggy?

Because in every other encounter, the hero doesn't have complete control over a Galactic Empire.

No but the hero would have access to a construction site. If he\she was in a city.

[Lukedanieljames]

Just to be fair, he'd have to be dropped into a huge pit of wet cement, you simply couldn't drop it on him. In the spiderman issue, he clearly says that he won't be able to move until he reaches the bottom, so the strength isn't the problem, it seems a lack of traction is the problem.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Just to be fair, he'd have to be dropped into a huge pit of wet cement, you simply couldn't drop it on him. In the spiderman issue, he clearly says that he won't be able to move until he reaches the bottom, so the strength isn't the problem, it seems a lack of traction is the problem.

Actually, it seems to be simply he doesnt do liquids. Solids are no problem, he can grab a solid thing, punch through it, force his way through it and do so while using leverage to accomplish the task. Liquids, specifically dense or heavy liquids like cement, seem to take away his leverage and thus he cannot exert force until he gets it back.


This next part is me talking out my ass, its just a theory but i find it an interesting thought on the whole debate about his TK resistance or lack there of: I would posit that his ability to 'walk on air' is not inspite of the TK, but instead BECAUSE of it. The TK is a force which perhaps acts like a solid barrier. Bracing himself against this barrier, and using it as leverage, he seemingly 'walks on air', pushing off from it like a person in a swimming pool pushes off from the edges and starts kicking. This is why he cant fly normally, but when supported by telekinesis seemingly he can. One could aso theorize that likewise, tractor beams might have the same effect and merely give him leverage against which to push against the air and propell himself, not stopping him at all.

Of course, again, this is just a thought; its actually quite fascinating to consider the properties required for Juggernaut to function really. Like his ability to survive ocean presures, as was explained. I find this very interetsing regardless of the, i think, general concensus he would loose eventually.