[ali-sama] Marvel Juggernaut vs Sidious and Dooku

[Surlethe]

One could aso theorize that likewise, tractor beams might have the same effect and merely give him leverage against which to push against the air and propell himself, not stopping him at all.

The TK thought is intriguing, though I don't know enough to judge either way, but saying he could lever himself off of a tractor beam is ridiculous. Star Wars tractor beams are gravitic; kicking off of a tractor beam is as absurd as kicking off of the Earth's gravitational field.

[18-Till-I-Die]

One could aso theorize that likewise, tractor beams might have the same effect and merely give him leverage against which to push against the air and propell himself, not stopping him at all.

The TK thought is intriguing, though I don't know enough to judge either way, but saying he could lever himself off of a tractor beam is ridiculous. Star Wars tractor beams are gravitic; kicking off of a tractor beam is as absurd as kicking off of the Earth's gravitational field.

I stand corrected then. Valid point, he cant defy gravity so he couldnt fight against a gravity-based tractor. I didnt know they were gravitic (i figured some kind of forcefields) at the time. But yes you're correct, as he is still bound by gravity the tractor beam should work, for the same reason.

[Stark]

Just to be fair, he'd have to be dropped into a huge pit of wet cement, you simply couldn't drop it on him. In the spiderman issue, he clearly says that he won't be able to move until he reaches the bottom, so the strength isn't the problem, it seems a lack of traction is the problem.

I'd just LOVE someone to rationalise 'he can move without touching the ground' with 'he can't move until he touches the ground'. If the cement was to heavy for his shield to work, then Sith TK be simply overpower Juggys walking. Not that he's ever seen to fly any other time ever, but hey, what's consistency to a comic fanwhore?

WOW! You mean no superhero (ones with super strength or TK ability) has ever though of picking up a cement truck and dump cement on him? Or placing wet cement into a large bin and then dump it on him? Lure him to a construction site and dump wet cement on him?

If you've got an example of them doing that, and it not working, you would have shown it by now. It doesn't invalidate the tactic that comic book superheroes are TOO FUCKING STUPID to do it. Even Spiderman, who was there! If you're SERIOUSLY saying it doesn't work, even though we SEE it work, then you're just trolling.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Possibly the reason why JG's TK was insufficient to hold Jug back was simply because, in conjunction with him using it for leverage as previously mentioned, it wasn't strong enough to stop him. For a Sith with the power to move star destroyers, stopping him might be child's play.

For those who aren't getting it– think of it like this:
Your average person can walk around in a pool. It's harder than usual, but they're strong enough to overcome its resistance.
Now put that person at the bottom of the Marinas Trench (assuming they won't get crushed). Walking is going to be very difficult in that densely-packed water, if not impossible.

[Lukedanieljames]

I'd just LOVE someone to rationalise 'he can move without touching the ground' with 'he can't move until he touches the ground'. If the cement was to heavy for his shield to work, then Sith TK be simply overpower Juggys walking. Not that he's ever seen to fly any other time ever, but hey, what's consistency to a comic fanwhore?

well sometimes comic books are the hardest to figure out, considering those 2 events contradict one another, infact juggernaut's abilities in general contradict each other

[Enigma]

Just to be fair, he'd have to be dropped into a huge pit of wet cement, you simply couldn't drop it on him. In the spiderman issue, he clearly says that he won't be able to move until he reaches the bottom, so the strength isn't the problem, it seems a lack of traction is the problem.

I'd just LOVE someone to rationalise 'he can move without touching the ground' with 'he can't move until he touches the ground'. If the cement was to heavy for his shield to work, then Sith TK be simply overpower Juggys walking. Not that he's ever seen to fly any other time ever, but hey, what's consistency to a comic fanwhore?

TK and wet cement does not equal the same. He was shown to have walked while suspended in mid air. He was using Jean GRey's TK as a means to walk on and it was definitely not of a consistency of wet cement. Most likely that Juggy forcefield can manipulate TK so that he can keep moving.

WOW! You mean no superhero (ones with super strength or TK ability) has ever though of picking up a cement truck and dump cement on him? Or placing wet cement into a large bin and then dump it on him? Lure him to a construction site and dump wet cement on him?

If you've got an example of them doing that, and it not working, you would have shown it by now. It doesn't invalidate the tactic that comic book superheroes are TOO FUCKING STUPID to do it. Even Spiderman, who was there! If you're SERIOUSLY saying it doesn't work, even though we SEE it work, then you're just trolling.

I am just saying (and failing) that wet cement is not going to be the number one thought going through the opponent's mind. Or even the concept of it. I do not doubt that cement would slow him down it is just it seems like just because we pick on the idea that wet cement would work on slowing down Juggy that we rationalize that anyone (or in this case Sidious and Dooku) would bring this up almost immediately.

In this scenario, I see lots of brute force attacks using TK to fling heavy objects at him, trying to use Force Push, use their lightsabers etc... The only time they'd come up with a "wet cement" idea is if they managed to inadvertently slow him down by tricking him into falling into a pit that is filled with a thick liquid substance and then capitalize on that.

A more realistic idea if they realize they need some time to really deal with Juggy is to fling him far away.

[Enigma]

Possibly the reason why JG's TK was insufficient to hold Jug back was simply because, in conjunction with him using it for leverage as previously mentioned, it wasn't strong enough to stop him. For a Sith with the power to move star destroyers, stopping him might be child's play.

For those who aren't getting it– think of it like this:
Your average person can walk around in a pool. It's harder than usual, but they're strong enough to overcome its resistance.
Now put that person at the bottom of the Marinas Trench (assuming they won't get crushed). Walking is going to be very difficult in that densely-packed water, if not impossible.

It was a group of Jedi students focusing the Force into one of them while on a Sith temple used to greatly magnify the Force.

Have their been an instance of a single Sith Lord or two to do the same without resorting to power-ups like the temple?

[Lord Pounder]

Possibly the reason why JG's TK was insufficient to hold Jug back was simply because, in conjunction with him using it for leverage as previously mentioned, it wasn't strong enough to stop him. For a Sith with the power to move star destroyers, stopping him might be child's play.

For those who aren't getting it– think of it like this:
Your average person can walk around in a pool. It's harder than usual, but they're strong enough to overcome its resistance.
Now put that person at the bottom of the Marinas Trench (assuming they won't get crushed). Walking is going to be very difficult in that densely-packed water, if not impossible.

It was a group of Jedi students focusing the Force into one of them while on a Sith temple used to greatly magnify the Force.

Have their been an instance of a single Sith Lord or two to do the same without resorting to power-ups like the temple?

Bare in mind however that the Jedi who pushed the Star Destroyer Fleet, Fleet as in 30 or so of the things IIRC, where just students barely into their training. Sith are taught more direct and powerful methods than Jedi. I still haven't seen a good arguement for how Juggy could defeat Palpatine's Force Storm nor his pre-cog, Palpys precog only ever failed him when Luke Skywalker became involved in the situation and Juggernaught is no Jedi.

Also as far as a Force Powerup is concerned if Palpy and Dooku need one there is a pretty powerful one on Coruscant, the Jedi Temple is built right over a "Force Nexus". Of course this means the Jedi discover Palpatines darker nature.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well to be fair, i dont think ANYONE would try to logically argue that Juggernaut could survive a force storm unharmed so far. Precog was mentioned earlier, iirc it was several pages back. That it would give the Sith an advantage in escaping the slower Juggernaut's blows, a very valid point considering the speed and reflexes we've seen in the PT. Though i doubt Palpatine would use a force storm in any close proximity to himself.

And it does bare mentioning that while i dont dispute that Juggernaut obviously has shown weakness against dense, heavy or sticky liquids such as wet cement, i seriously doubt that anyone would immediately think to use that. Or that it would even cross their mind. Sith have shown to generally depend on lightning, brute force TK, and their own fightings kills (from what we've seen in the movies, i wouldnt know about the EU) when battling a foe. Trickery and stealth are also their weapons, but would largely be ineffective here. I would image that they would attack Juggy, find that brute force is soemwhat lacking against such a creature, and try more unorthodox tactics, like luring him to fall into Coruscant's city depths or using a shuttle's tractors to toss him a great distance away or into space.

And because i dont want to get labled a 'comic wanker', i restate that i already believed, and still believe, Juggernaut would eventually loose to the Siths and am only bringing this up to clarify a point.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Something else that might help the Siths.

I recall reading that force lightning had an effect, a mystical quality, which sapped the 'soul' or force energy from anyone who was hit by it as well a sburning them.

If this is so, it stands to reason that since Juggernaut also has a well known weakness to magics that the mystical quality of force lightning should, or at least could theoretically, cause him the same harm it would anyone else. So its all together possible he could get zapped with ULTIMATE POWER!!!1! like Mace Windo and suffer the same unpleasant fate.

[Lord Pounder]

Palpy would be forewarned by Precog that a cement type substabce would be useful. I think you got it wrong 18, Palpatine has only used others for brute force, Maul and Vader both prime examples of the type of Sith Warrior he prefered at his beck and call, when it comes to fighting he is subtle yet devistating. In RotS he didn't go all out with showy TK and Force displays untill it was found out. He waged a war lasting years against the Jedi and struck exactly when the time was right, and due to his Force Meditations his precog helped him strike an almost perfect killing blow against the entire Jedi Order.

[Noble Ire]

Palpy would be forewarned by Precog that a cement type substabce would be useful.

Woah, what? Precog allows Jedi/Sith to see into the future by varied amounts of time, it doesn't allow a Force-user to randomly pick up on some obscure weakness for no apparent reason.

[Stark]

I'd just LOVE someone to rationalise 'he can move without touching the ground' with 'he can't move until he touches the ground'. If the cement was to heavy for his shield to work, then Sith TK be simply overpower Juggys walking. Not that he's ever seen to fly any other time ever, but hey, what's consistency to a comic fanwhore?

TK and wet cement does not equal the same. He was shown to have walked while suspended in mid air. He was using Jean GRey's TK as a means to walk on and it was definitely not of a consistency of wet cement. Most likely that Juggy forcefield can manipulate TK so that he can keep moving.

I agree. However, the 'consistency of wet cement' seems to be a pretty good limit: is there any reason to expect Juggy to be able to walk against TK that can exert concrete-like pressures?

If you've got an example of them doing that, and it not working, you would have shown it by now. It doesn't invalidate the tactic that comic book superheroes are TOO FUCKING STUPID to do it. Even Spiderman, who was there! If you're SERIOUSLY saying it doesn't work, even though we SEE it work, then you're just trolling.

I am just saying (and failing) that wet cement is not going to be the number one thought going through the opponent's mind. Or even the concept of it. I do not doubt that cement would slow him down it is just it seems like just because we pick on the idea that wet cement would work on slowing down Juggy that we rationalize that anyone (or in this case Sidious and Dooku) would bring this up almost immediately.

In this scenario, I see lots of brute force attacks using TK to fling heavy objects at him, trying to use Force Push, use their lightsabers etc... The only time they'd come up with a "wet cement" idea is if they managed to inadvertently slow him down by tricking him into falling into a pit that is filled with a thick liquid substance and then capitalize on that.

A more realistic idea if they realize they need some time to really deal with Juggy is to fling him far away.

This is sensible. However, unless it was MAGICAL cement, provides us a nice limit we can base everything else on. I don't think 'stopped by cement' and 'can walk on air against any level of TK' go together, is all.

[Surlethe]

However, the 'consistency of wet cement' seems to be a pretty good limit: is there any reason to expect Juggy to be able to walk against TK that can exert concrete-like pressures?

We shouldn't jump from "liquid the consistency of wet cement hinders Juggernaut" to "is held by concrete-like pressures"; I was getting the impression the cement hindered Juggernaut because it was viscous enough he sank slowly and couldn't get traction to get out until he hit bottom.

[Darth Wong]

TK and wet cement does not equal the same. He was shown to have walked while suspended in mid air. He was using Jean GRey's TK as a means to walk on and it was definitely not of a consistency of wet cement. Most likely that Juggy forcefield can manipulate TK so that he can keep moving.

This is the second time I'm going to ask someone to justify the assumption that all TK has the same properties. I do not like being forced to ask the same question several times without an answer.

[Enigma]

TK and wet cement does not equal the same. He was shown to have walked while suspended in mid air. He was using Jean GRey's TK as a means to walk on and it was definitely not of a consistency of wet cement. Most likely that Juggy forcefield can manipulate TK so that he can keep moving.

This is the second time I'm going to ask someone to justify the assumption that all TK has the same properties. I do not like being forced to ask the same question several times without an answer.

Why not assume that the both TK (but not all) might be similar? Both users are technically genetically different from "normal" humans that let them use their abilities. That Juggy can at least overcome JG's TK as a baseline at what he can do. Are we going to assume now that everything works differently now just because they are from two different universes? Is the Force magic? Magic seems to be another way to counter Juggy. If not why can we not say that Juggy might have a chance against Force TK?

I am not saying overall that Juggy would win or that the Sith duo would prevail I am giving Juggy some benefit.

I view it that both TK are similar. What makes you think that they are so different that the Force TK would work?

[Stark]

We shouldn't jump from "liquid the consistency of wet cement hinders Juggernaut" to "is held by concrete-like pressures"; I was getting the impression the cement hindered Juggernaut because it was viscous enough he sank slowly and couldn't get traction to get out until he hit bottom.

I'm not saying the pressure alone will stop him - on the ground, for instance -
simply that his 'walk on the air' trick doesn't work in wet cement.

[ali-sama]

what you need to do is find out who has been able to attack him with psy powers.
so far the list is limited.

Professor x, jena grey(pheonix), rachel summers(pheonix 2) and emma frost.

[Trekdestroyer]

what you need to do is find out who has been able to attack him with psy powers.
so far the list is limited.

Professor x, jena grey(pheonix), rachel summers(pheonix 2) and emma frost.

Ok, forget about the whole TK crap. Have you even considered Force lightning as a possible attack that Juggy will have to contend with? No? Doesn't surprise me at all. That big guy is one big fried Juggernaut.

[ali-sama]

what you need to do is find out who has been able to attack him with psy powers.
so far the list is limited.

Professor x, jena grey(pheonix), rachel summers(pheonix 2) and emma frost.

Ok, forget about the whole TK crap. Have you even considered Force lightning as a possible attack that Juggy will have to contend with? No? Doesn't surprise me at all. That big guy is one big fried Juggernaut.

Not at all.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 48#1842848

[ali-sama]

this debate is pointless. when the sith are allowed outside help so is jug. since this is not marvel reality. The true source and benefisionery of jug 's power will not only intervene but will help. sith RIP.

[Stark]

this debate is pointless. when the sith are allowed outside help so is jug. since this is not marvel reality. The true source and benefisionery of jug 's power will not only intervene but will help. sith RIP.

I'm so glad you've decided it's pointless - that must be much easier than, y'know, addressing people's arguments, working to establish limits, etc. Wah wah you're calling it all off!

I'm not even going to bother pointing out that wherever they are, Sith got there in a spaceship. Ctorrak intervenes extremely infrequently in Juggies life. I call bullshit - but feel free to ignore this, as you have ignored everything else.

[ali-sama]

this debate is pointless. when the sith are allowed outside help so is jug. since this is not marvel reality. The true source and benefisionery of jug 's power will not only intervene but will help. sith RIP.

I'm so glad you've decided it's pointless - that must be much easier than, y'know, addressing people's arguments, working to establish limits, etc. Wah wah you're calling it all off!

I'm not even going to bother pointing out that wherever they are, Sith got there in a spaceship. Ctorrak intervenes extremely infrequently in Juggies life. I call bullshit - but feel free to ignore this, as you have ignored everything else.

yes. your right. though you failed to read what i wrote. it is not the marvel reality. he is banished from that therefore cannot manifest himself there and is limited to teleporting him.

[Stark]

this debate is pointless. when the sith are allowed outside help so is jug. since this is not marvel reality. The true source and benefisionery of jug 's power will not only intervene but will help. sith RIP.

'Not only intervene but will help'. I'm not apologising for your TERRIBLE english, but it LOOKS like you say here Ctorrak would intervene to help Juggy. Oh noes backpedal! I won't point out that the battle takes place on Couruscant, which will doubtless have millions of starships, no 'outside help' required.

It's amusing you don't seem to realise you've been the most useless poster in this whole thread. Random people like Enigma(!!) have done more work to establish Juggies capabilities, despite knowing much less about the subject matter.

[ali-sama]

this debate is pointless. when the sith are allowed outside help so is jug. since this is not marvel reality. The true source and benefisionery of jug 's power will not only intervene but will help. sith RIP.

'Not only intervene but will help'. I'm not apologising for your TERRIBLE english, but it LOOKS like you say here Ctorrak would intervene to help Juggy. Oh noes backpedal! I won't point out that the battle takes place on Couruscant, which will doubtless have millions of starships, no 'outside help' required.

It's amusing you don't seem to realise you've been the most useless poster in this whole thread. Random people like Enigma(!!) have done more work to establish Juggies capabilities, despite knowing much less about the subject matter.

sorry. but your a fucktard. why? cause he is a god whocontrols a universe and all it's energies. which he syphones to juggernaugh. the debate is over for me. you lost. good day.