US Military vs Coruscant

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 09:09pm

BTW, I am currently involved in almost the exact same debate on a different thread. Perhaps we could coordinate with countdooku and move it all over here?

And why the hell can't I get you people to understand this: THE ARMOR DOES NOT HAVE TO FAIL FOR SOMEONE TO BE INJURED? Their necks might break. Their brains might receive concussions, they might black out temporarily. These can happen even if the armor's integrity is completely uncompromised.

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-27 09:13pm

Jango Fett did have a projectile weapon, two as a matter of fact, a flame thrower and the grappling line he used to try to entangle Kenobi and fry Mace Windu. Mace chose to jump away rather than try to use a telekinetic shield and make the very hot particles flow away from him. Kenobi, on the other hand, just sat there waiting for his lightsaber to come back, and looked to me like he was taken by surprise by the grappling line...

As a Jedi Master Mace was deflecting blaster bolts coming from the two super battle droids. While that was going on, Jett activated his flame thrower and attacked Mace. Rather than raise his telekinetic shield, Mace instead chose to flee. There are two possiblities in my view (and others will no doubt point out others to me)
1) Even a Jedi master can only use one power at a time... Mace deflected blaster bolts a few moments later as he fell, but he probably deflected bolts on the way down and then used the Force to land safely when the time was right, and then he was right back to deflecting bolts...
2) Jedi don't whip up telekinetic shields...

Kenobi also did not utilize a telekinetic shield to deflect the grappler line that was coming at him while he used the Force to pick his lightsaber back up. Precognition also comes in. If Knight Kenobi was able to use the Force to help him in the middle of the fire fight he should've been able to avoid the grappler...

I base this on the movies which are the most canon source of material. I try to stay away from novels (as far as arguments go of what the Force, etc. can and cannot do) since Lucas ignores them and views them as an alternate reality...

Why aren't projectile weapons of types that we are familiar with in the movies? I'm not talking about books, I'm talking about the movies... Well the most obvious is that Lucas made a conscious decision to exclude them... As far as reasons within the actual Star Wars universe? Perhaps blasters are all around superior weapons - better range, better hitting power, more accurate?

Perhaps the Jedi, or their supporters have succeeded in largely banning projectile weapons (yes I take this tac b/c I operate on the premise that projectile weapons are good against Jedi - and hence this argument will no doubt be ignored because of that) because they are useful against Jedi. Jedi the protectors of peace and justice in the galaxy. Why would you want to have a weapon which works well against the Jedi? Are you a Jedi hater? That's the argument that the gun banning advocates could use... With projectile weapons banned, people would turn to blasters which are better all around weapons. And if the banning took place so long ago, people would not even think of projectile weapons any longer...

Jango Fett wouldn't have invested in an automatic weapon because he knows how dangerous and stupid it can be to engage a Jedi in combat. In my opinion he chose to engage Kenobi ib Kamino because Jango had to fight in order to escape. I think he engaged Mace because Mace had a lightsaber by his throat for a few moments and Jango just could not let that go...

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-27 09:28pm

Question: What is "SWEGWT"?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 09:40pm

Zam Wessel clearly used a projectile rifle in AotC. Your argument that the Jedi and their supporters have banned the weapons is not true, either in canon or in the EGWT (official material). After Jango was attacked by the Reek, his jetpack was disabled and so he was unable to attempt to escape. Your theory is also untrue because the ban would only be effective in worlds controlled by the Republic. Many systems are not (including Tatooine). Therefore, we would expect to find such weapons there, but we do not.

Slugthrowers are probably not used frequently because of several factors. Here are the ones I could think of off the top of my head:

1. Size. Blasters might offer better power and accuracy for less weight and size. This is likely an important reason because power packs appear to be smaller than physical slugs in most science fiction.
2. Variable settings. Blasters often have several settings, including stun. This is a marked advantage over slug throwers.
3. Ease of use. Blasters might be easier to use than slugthrowers. It might be easier to train people with blasters than with slugthrowers.
4. Reliability. Blasters might be more reliable. This appears (in SW) to be true for some models, but not all. In other universes, this appears to be more universally true.
5. Cost. Blasters might be cheaper. Their ammunition is almost certainly less expensive (in Wraith Squadron, it is described as being "negligible.") and it might be easier to mass-produce blasters than slug-throwers.
6. Standardization. If blasters offer enough advantages over slug-throwers to get a sizable portion of the militaries/police forces/people to use them, others might convert to blasters in order to keep up standardization. This is particularly true with ammunition. No longer do lots of different cartridges, sizes, and specialty ammunition need to be carried, purchased, or stored. Now only power packs do (and, in SW, tibanna gas.) If anyone has other reasons, I would love to hear them.

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-27 09:49pm

I said it was possible that projectile weapons were banned.

Just as the US can lean on other countries to get certain regulations and policies enacted in those countries, the Republic and their Jedi proxies can no doubt do the same thing. Although the Jedi of course would never admit to such a thing, I'm sure.

Again, what is "EWGT"?

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-27 09:51pm

Nevermind, now I see what EGWT is. Thanks.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 09:51pm

willburns84 wrote:I said it was possible that projectile weapons were banned.

Just as the US can lean on other countries to get certain regulations and policies enacted in those countries, the Republic and their Jedi proxies can no doubt do the same thing. Although the Jedi of course would never admit to such a thing, I'm sure.

Again, what is "EWGT"?

The Republic couldn't even get slavery banned on Tatooine, it could not possibly hope to enact legislation that would ban an entire group of weapons. BTW, weapons regulation is, at least in part, a planetary decision in both the Empire and the Republic (ref. Alderaan).

SWEGWT is an acronym for: Star Wars Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology.

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-27 10:15pm

I shall wade, for a few terrible moments, into the field of politics.

The Republic is probably as diverse, no make that much more diverse than anything anyone can imagine - much more diverse than the United States or any other terran society. Within such varied groups perhaps there are enough people which don't think slavery is anything to get worked up about but have other interests which are more important to them.

What is more, with the laws passed, perhaps no one cares to enforce them. Even modern police departments and prosecutorial divisions only enforce the laws and ordinances they want to enforce because of ethical concerns or the like... Example - Jaywalking. I'm sure it's still on the books in many locales, but no self-respecting officer will write up a Jaywalker unless that cop is an ass or just hates the person that crossed the street in the wrong place...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 10:20pm

Yeah, you're probably right. It might either be an enforcement issue, or it might be an issue with actually making the laws.

I don't think Jedi are common enough to justify making such laws solely for them, though. In all of the literature (and the movies, it appears) it is VERY unusual to dispatch Jedi to a given planet. I don't think the average citizen would ever meet a Jedi Knight in their (human-spanned) lives.

willburns84 · Post by **willburns84** » 2002-07-27 10:29pm

You're right about most people not meeting Jedi. Only what, 10,000 Jedi in the Republic compared to how many uncounted quadrillions in the Republic as a whole?

You're probably right about Jedi throwing up the telekinetic shield.

I personally just cannot stand the idea of uberwarriors who can't be stopped except by other uberwarriors or the sacrifice of hundreds or thousands of mundanes. Rather like the Draka.

But that's another topic for another time...

Serious question now. Chemical weapons... Nerve gas, blister agents, etc. Would their telekinetic shield be, ummm, sufficient to keep it away? Would the Jedi be able to nullify the effects of the chemicals with the Force if it somehow came over them?

Then again we've only seen chemical weapons used in TPM at the very beginning, so...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 01:30am

Okay, this is an interesting topic. In TPM, we saw that there was some kind of noxious agent that was delivered in an attempt to kill Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. It did not work. They appeared to hold their breaths for the entire time. The Jedi are able to control their bodies to an INCREDIBLE degree, in all official literature. They can reverse the flow of blood in localized extremities, heal wounds very quickly, and remain without spending significant energy for days or even weeks at a time. They do NOT appear to be able to withstand vacuum for very long, or to take large doses of radiation.

Personally, I think that TPM demonstrates that they are very resistant to noxious agents (nerve gas, chemical weapons), however they are not immune. Had Gunray and his forces prevented the Jedi from leaving, the Jedi would have died eventually. It just would have taken a VERY long time. On the other hand, one wonders why they did not just use their breathmasks which they used to get to Otah Gunga, later on.

We are unsure of the properties of the gas that the Jedi were exposed to. Depending on whether it was a caustic agent, one that had to be inhaled deeply, or one that would kill if given access to mucus membranes only, would make the Jedi feat seem much more or less impressive. I think, though, that it would be fair to say that the Jedi would be VERY resistant to such weapons, but yes, they could be killed by prolonged exposure to such agents. If anyone agrees or disagrees, I really have no way of refuting you, but please post so I can see if there is any other evidence that I have forgotten about.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 01:34am

Wait, I just remembered something. In Conquest, Tahira Veila (a Jedi apprentice) uses the Force to create a vacuum around the heads of several Yuuzhan Vong in an attempt to strangle them. This took considerable amounts of concentration, and her attempt failed when one of them broke it by exposing her to a torture device. Still, if the Jedi had warning of poison gas before it reached them (hissing, seeing gas, etc.) it is POSSIBLE that they would be able to protect themselves using such a technique. From the book, though, I got the impression that that technique was VERY taxing on Tahira. I don't think she could have kept it up for very long. She was only a Jedi apprentice, it is possible that a master would have been able to keep it up for longer, but I don't think so. Why, then, would Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan have had to have held their breaths?

Such a technique is probably doable, but only in the very short term. Again, resistance is demonstrated, but nowhere near immunity.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-28 12:56pm

This is ridiculous. Only the most skilled U.S. pilots will be able to navigate the ten-mile-high corridors of Coruscant and only a few aircraft will be technically capable of doing so. Each skyscraper seen in Coruscant is larger than the 10 largest buildings on Earth + the Titanic and the Bizmarck put together. It would take all of the U.S' offensive capability just to take _one_ building. Meanwhile, a single starfighter, the kind that can fly through the incredible radiation of space and near c micrometeorite impacts without any "cheat" technologies, could concievably wipe out the entire USAF. AARTY will be useless as most platforms are unable to fire over a 12 km tall building, especially at high elevation. Clone soldiers would mow down not only infantry but light vehicles as well with their powerful blasters. This is no contest; the U.S. doesn't even have the strategic mobility to move around Coruscant. They will be quickly surrounded and destroyed.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-07-28 03:28pm

The US army turns into a mid-sized streetgang after some time.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-07-29 09:03pm

the sheer population of the sw capital would make this impossible for the u.s. to claim a victory - a million to one odds, not even including the tech difference; and the underworld of the planet is a pretty nasty place.