What is the Worst act of minimalism?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-11-07 01:01am

The Katana fleet...honestly, both the Remnant and the NR at the time should have been able to pull 200 dreadnaughts out of their asses.

The Grim Squeaker · Post by **The Grim Squeaker** » 2005-11-07 01:23am

Joe wrote:The Katana fleet...honestly, both the Remnant and the NR at the time should have been able to pull 200 dreadnaughts out of their asses.

Well it was 200 fully crewed with elite officers dreadnoughts that were fresh and available.
It was stated that the NR and Thrawn had the same amount of territioy and (roughly) ships, 200 capital ships that can be used and deployed anywhere isn't that bad (Although it should not be a deciding factor with thousands of ships)

Hedgehog's Roommate · Post by **Hedgehog's Roommate** » 2005-11-07 02:42am

Noble Ire wrote:Tychu wrote:
i dont know if its considerd minamalist, it probally is so ill put my 2 cents in

first you should know its KJA so theres something right there

but the whole Jedi Trainees moving a ISD? out of orbit around Yavin. If that was true to a Jedi powers then why hasent any one else moved around ships?
A small fleet of ISDs, actually.
That instance is in no way indicative of normal Jedi power. It involved a group of more than a dozen "padawans" so to speak focusing their power in a chamber specifically designed to channel Force energy, and one of them died in the process.

No that was a Vic Star fleet. Made up of ~100 vessels that had been made in-system by some minor warlord. Daala just took it over and sent it to "pave the way" so to speak at Yavin. While she showed up in a brand new SSD. Again that had been made by some minor warlord in-system, and under complete secrecy.

The minimalism shows up when Callista uses a TIE-bomber, that IIRC, was completely empty of armament to destroy said SSD. She did this by self destructing it in the rear hanger bay.

Murazor · Post by **Murazor** » 2005-11-07 04:13am

Invictus ChiKen wrote:I think the one I hated most was this one line in I believe it was Courtship of Princess Leia or Black Fleet Crisis. Where they commented about how a Star Destroyer is always on the verge of falling apart and is VERY poorly deisgned.

For whatever is worth, the Black Fleet Crisis actually featured a marginally functional ISD twenty years after having lost over a third of its hull, with character comments about how the Imps build the ISDs to last for eternity. Also, the Imperial designs were a lot of a bigger threat than the Yevetha thrustships and the shipyards were building more ISDs, not thrustships.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-11-07 11:46am

I'm no fan of Darksaber, but Callista rigged a whole bomber squadron to fire concussion missiles into the main engines.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-07 03:18pm

No that was a Vic Star fleet. Made up of ~100 vessels that had been made in-system by some minor warlord. Daala just took it over and sent it to "pave the way" so to speak at Yavin. While she showed up in a brand new SSD. Again that had been made by some minor warlord in-system, and under complete secrecy.

No, she had a small ISD fleet as well, 27 ships IIRC, under the command of Gilad Pellaeon. They attacked Yavin 4 first, and were pushed about a parsec away by the Jedi before the Knighthammer arrived. The Vic fleet was tied up elsewhere.

Hedgehog's Roommate · Post by **Hedgehog's Roommate** » 2005-11-07 03:44pm

Anguirus wrote:I'm no fan of Darksaber, but Callista rigged a whole bomber squadron to fire concussion missiles into the main engines.

No, she took a Tie-bomber that had crashed on Yavin 4, it was damaged but flyable. She then called in to Knight Hammer control said she had a reactor leak and she wanted to come on board for repair. Control told her to go to the rear hanger bay, where there just happened to be a wing of bombers .

This during a planetary assault.

She then rigged her bomber to explode, which would then cause a chain reaction in the other bombers.The main reactor was supposed to be just on the other side of the rear bulkhead. However prior to actually getting inside the hanger she didn't know that the other bombers were there.

Once the bombers went of it destroyed the main reactor which knocked out the engines, the Hammer was then caught in Yavins gravitational pull and dragged to it's death.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-11-07 04:23pm

^ Well, it may be poor writing, but in terms of a squadron of bombers blowing up and taking out an SSD, it's really no worse than two torpedoes taking out the Droid Control Ship. Once you're inside the shields, things get easier.

Norade · Post by **Norade** » 2005-11-07 04:37pm

I was wondering, how many ships would have to be in a battle before it becomes more than minimalist? Would a battle group of twenty-five ISD's and various smaller ships be too small to take a world.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-11-07 04:47pm

One has to give KJA credit for mentioning the rear-hangar of an Executor at all.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-11-07 05:36pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: 2) Putting the guns on the centerline!

Actually, in the Imperator 1 there are 3 turets of 3 guns each on the centerline, the "axial defense guns" These are the 3rd biggest guns on the beast as well, so I guess its not so bad.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-07 05:50pm

Norade wrote:I was wondering, how many ships would have to be in a battle before it becomes more than minimalist? Would a battle group of twenty-five ISD's and various smaller ships be too small to take a world.

Depends on the situation. A skirmish on the Outer Rim over a small world: 10 capships on either side is fine, perhaps less even. Battle over most core worlds: any less than thousands is minimalism. As for major fleet actions, directed against other fleets, at least 50-100 cap ships on either side, plus plenty of support.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-07 05:56pm

Ender wrote:I guess its not so bad.

Oh hell no. It's nowhere near as bad a ship design as it could be. It's just not as good as it could be either.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-11-08 02:17am

The fleets fielded in the Thrawn Trilogy are pretty goddamn bad. Even the baseline WEG figures dwarf what we see in there.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2005-11-08 03:45am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The fleets fielded in the Thrawn Trilogy are pretty goddamn bad. Even the baseline WEG figures dwarf what we see in there.

Hyperdrive speed got taken down a notch or two in that trilogy as well, didn't it?

Other than that, I suppose that one of Mara Jade's wedding dress makers was pretty minimalist.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2005-11-10 11:26am

I have a rather new source for this. in SW: Medstar II: Jedi Healer

spoiler...........................

When they figure out that Klo Merit is the spy he tells Jos a tale that the Equani homeworld only had a few 10 thousand of Equani. Now a space faring species who mostly stays on their homeplanet should have billions.
We have 6.3 billion and we cant figure out how the hell to get from Earth to Pluto in a day. It seems to me that a species that knows how to do that should have more than ~50 thosand inhabinants.

oh and a Death Star Beam fired into a sun should do a little more than create a huge...huge...huge solar flare that engulfs Equani

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-10 06:17pm

oh and a Death Star Beam fired into a sun should do a little more than create a huge...huge...huge solar flare that engulfs Equani

Did you miss the DS2's anti-ship superlaser setting? Even SW superweapons can have multiple outputs and uses.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2005-11-10 09:27pm

I dont have the book on me right now but i just finished reading it. The quote i believe went along the lines that they were testing the power of the new weapon. and to me Power of a weapon means that full power of a weapon. Palpatine usually dosent go for light super duper weapons. And who said that the shot on the Rebel ships were scaled down? It just seemed like a shot like all the others that hit a ship instead of a planet

in laments terms is there proof that is says Palps powerd down the shot to h it the Rebel cruiser (I havent read the ROTJ novel)

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-10 10:00pm

in laments terms is there proof that is says Palps powerd down the shot to h it the Rebel cruiser (I havent read the ROTJ novel)

Actually, I'm fairly certain that a power decrease is mentioned in the novelization, or at least in one of the DK guides.

I dont have the book on me right now but i just finished reading it. The quote i believe went along the lines that they were testing the power of the new weapon. and to me Power of a weapon means that full power of a weapon. Palpatine usually dosent go for light super duper weapons.

But it wasn't actually the Death Star, just a prototype IIRC. Who knows how differently it would function.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-11-11 12:14am

You do realize that a beam powerful enough to do what the DSI did to Alderaan would not STOP when it hit a ship?

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-11-11 01:01pm

Also recharge time is a consideration. IIRC the DS2 fired twice during the battle and I think the recharge for superlaser at full power was about a day, though it's been a while since I read the OT books.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-11 01:04pm

Lord Pounder wrote:Also recharge time is a consideration. IIRC the DS2 fired twice during the battle and I think the recharge for superlaser at full power was about a day, though it's been a while since I read the OT books.

For the DS1 it was a day. Never mentioned what a planet buster charge would be for the DS2.

But if we take the utterly ridiculous assumption that the DS2 killing ship beam was a planet buster, it fired twice, with the ability to still kill Endor......in less then a hour's span.

And firing into a star with a prototype is NOT the same as hitting a planet with a finished product.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2005-11-11 03:35pm

One has to wonder what happened to Vader's "This day will be long remembered ..."

Concerning minimalism, i had to look it up again, but in Aaron Allstons first X-Wing-novel "WraithSquadron" we have an imperial spy hack into the NR-computers and declare a system as safe or cleared ground. Then the empire lures a single X-Wing-squadron into this system and ambushes them. Little gain for a lot of effort, not to mention that the incident would have caused the NR to upgrade its computer-security.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-11-12 11:44am

Tychu wrote:And who said that the shot on the Rebel ships were scaled down? It just seemed like a shot like all the others that hit a ship instead of a planet

You're kidding, right?

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-11-13 12:38am

Well..... it really isn't part of SW canon, but the Marvel comics were extremely, extremely miminalists.

Not only were ISDs Dreadnoughts and battlecruisers(Imperial Star Destroyer class battlecruisers???!!!), after the destruction of the Imperial Fleet at Endor, the Rebel alliance went about taking entire worlds with a single squadron of fighters at BEST, if not just sending lone heroes like Luke or Leia to do the job. This even when the Imperial response measured hundreds of ships in return.

And of course, the Torg and Naraj invasion fleet. Stopped by the capture of the Torg Prince, in an absurd abduction mission by Naraj and Alliance operatives.