Inteligent Design rebutal

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Alyeska
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Inteligent Design rebutal

Post by Alyeska »

I recently found this guest opinion in my local paper. It seems to be a reprint of an article this dofus wrote some months ago.
Over the past several months, there has been a growing public debate about the theory of intelligent design, whether it is science, and whether it should be taught in public schools. President Bush's recent endorsement of teaching about different ideas when studying evolution, including intelligent design, is sure to add fuel to the controversy.

Unfortunately, all the attention has not necessarily led to greater public understanding of the theory of intelligent design or the views of the scientists who support it. Indeed, as intelligent design has become more prominent, foes and friends alike have latched onto it to promote their own agendas. For foes, intelligent design is merely the latest tactic by the "religious right" to use government to impose "creationism" on unsuspecting students and teachers. These critics of intelligent design typically depict scientists who support the theory as zealots determined to twist the findings of science to support their faith in God. If foes are guilty of misappropriating intelligent design, however, so are some of its newfound friends.

As intelligent design has become a household term, a few well-meaning but misguided public officials have conflated the theory of design with creationism or tried to impose it by legislation.

In Utah, a state senator recently advocated the adoption of what he calls "divine design." In Pennsylvania, the Legislature held hearings on a bill that would allow school districts to mandate the teaching of design. These conflicting voices in the public arena claiming to speak for intelligent design have promoted serious misunderstandings about what the theory actually proposes and what its supporters really want.

The first misunderstanding is that intelligent design is based on religion rather than science. Design theory is a scientific inference based on empirical evidence, not religious texts. The theory proposes that some features of the natural world are best explained as the product of an intelligent cause as opposed to an undirected process such as natural selection. Although controversial, design theory is supported by a growing number of scientists in scientific journals, conference proceedings and books. While intelligent design may have religious implications (just like Darwin's theory), it does not start from religious premises. A second misunderstanding is that proponents of intelligent design theory are crusading to have it required in public schools. In fact, they are doing the opposite.

Discovery Institute, the main research organization supporting ID scholars, opposes efforts to mandate intelligent design. Attempts to mandate teaching about intelligent design only politicize the theory and will hinder fair and open discussion of the merits of the theory among scholars and within the scientific community.

A third misunderstanding is that there are widespread efforts to mandate the teaching of design. In reality, what most states are considering is not teaching design but teaching the weaknesses as well as the strengths of modern Darwinian theory. This is the approach adopted in the science standards of Ohio, Minnesota and New Mexico. It's also the approach under consideration by the Kansas State Board of Education, which earlier this year heard testimony critical of Darwin's theory from professors of biology, genetics and biochemistry.

While scholars supporting ID are not seeking to impose their views, opponents have tried to silence critics of Darwin's theory using coercion and intimidation. At George Mason University, a biology professor was banned recently from teaching about intelligent design in her classes. At the Smithsonian Institution, the editor of a biology journal says he faced discrimination and retaliation after accepting for publication a pro-ID article.

Supporters of intelligent design are willing to disavow misguided efforts to impose it by government fiat. Defenders of Darwinism likewise need to reject efforts to enforce their views by trampling on academic freedom.The validity of intelligent design should be decided through fair and open debate, not through legislation enacted by its friends or witch hunts conducted by its foes.
John G. West is associate director of the Center for Science and Culture at Discovery Institute and an associate professor of Political Science at Seattle Pacific University.
I found a link to an online source with the text.

Link

I am going to try and write up a rebutal to be posted in my local paper.

The way I see it, there are several points to raise.

The first is to point out that ID is not proper science. Explain what science is, and point out how ID fails.

The second is to point out that Evolution has absolutely no religious implications (other then rendering certain religious theories wrong), and that ID requires religion.

The third is point out that the primary ID supporters not only want ID taught in schools exclusively, they want to eventualy make Creationism mandatory.

The fourth point is to show the Discovery Institute in its true colors. Point out they ultimately don't care about fair discussion.

Last of all, state that there is no contraversy and that the ID supporters are trying to attack Evolution in the public and through the courts because they can't touch it in science itself.

If I could get some nice quotes and suggestions, I would appreciate that. I will be working on this essay and post each version for critique and suggestions.
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Post by Dalton »

The writer suggests that the goal of the ID movement is to allow schools to teach an "alternate" viewpoint. Obviously, ignorance is not an "alternate" viewpoint. What it'll do is encourage intellectual laziness. If science comes across something which is inexplicable, "x made it" is not a valid scientific explanation. Furthermore, evolution is self-correcting since it is scientific; you don't need to further "diminish" evolution by pointing out its "flaws" since the process is still not completely understood.

A ridiculous article written in a manner that makes it seem like a fair compromise. Intelligent Design is not valid science and does not belong in the classroom. Science isn't about what's fair, it's about what's right.
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Post by SirNitram »

First, last, and most important point: ID is not a scientific theory.

Period. Exclamation point, in fact. It's not a theory. All the paranoia, all the justification, all the fallacies can't change that.

A scientific theory requires a natural mechanism. ID outright declares that the mechanism can't exist; it must invoke a supernatural God.

A scientific theory must have verifiable predictions. ID has none.

A scientific theory undergoes peer review. ID has never survived and likely has never been put up.

Nothing more should be needed. At it's core, you don't even need to look at the content.
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Post by Alyeska »

Agreed, but I want to create something well worded to attack the other fallacies posted and to potentialy persuade people who read the article. Those on the fence thinking ID is rational could potentialy change their position when they realize what ID is and just what ID argues (DI) stand for.

Interesting.

Inteligent Design ID
Discovery Institute DI

Conincidence?
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Post by SirNitram »

Alyeska wrote:Agreed, but I want to create something well worded to attack the other fallacies posted and to potentialy persuade people who read the article. Those on the fence thinking ID is rational could potentialy change their position when they realize what ID is and just what ID argues (DI) stand for.

Interesting.

Inteligent Design ID
Discovery Institute DI

Conincidence?
Concise is best. If you try and attack all the fallacious arguments, you will be there all day; ID uses the Creationist Buckshot Attack. IE, throw up a whole host of BS and throw more as they try and explain how it's nonsense.

Remember your Sun-Tzu! If your opponent defines your strategy(IE, you respond to his lies instead of exposing the core problems), he has the initiative, and you've already lost. Find his weakest point and strike there quickly and firmly. In this case, it's concisely explaining why ID simply isn't a scientific theory.
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Post by Alyeska »

I want to deliver a killing stroke, and but also take off the mask of the enemy to show the beast underneath.
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Post by Surlethe »

Alyeska wrote: The third is point out that the primary ID supporters not only want ID taught in schools exclusively, they want to eventualy make Creationism mandatory.
You may want to include some quotes about the wedge strategy.
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Post by SpacedTeddyBear »

ID does not mean intelligent design; it means intellectually dishonest.

ID has not posed any sort of testable hypothesis (to my knowledge). All they've done is write essays laced with pseudoscience.

As Nitram stated, ID has no ( and can make no) verifiable predictions, since they don't have yet to a produced a testable hypothesis. About a week ago, there was a debate regarding teaching ID as a science in schools. Someone asked what does ID predict, and the professor pushing for ID sidestepped the question.

If there is an intelligent designer, then that designer is also subject to questioning like all scientific hypothesis and theories.

A couple years ago, when the new "updated" version of "Of Pandas and People", all that was updated was the replacement of the word 'creationist' to 'Intelligent Design', and 'creator' with 'primary mover'. ( Not too sure about the last term).
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Post by Darth Wong »

I tried going to an unfamiliar board in order to see what kind of arguments are commonly being made in environments where we have no cast our fire of destruction, and it appears that the most common pro-ID argument right now is:

"Evolution is not proven, and neither is Intelligent Design, so neither is any more true than the other, and anyone who says one is more true than the other is a zealot."

Broken down into mathematical form, where "guaranteed true" = 1, this argument looks like the following:

A < 1
B < 1
Therefore A = B

Naturally, when I pointed out that this was the godawful logic being employed by my opponent, he said "stop misrepresenting me" but failed to explain exactly how this was a misrepresentation of his argument :lol:
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Darth Wong wrote:Broken down into mathematical form, where "guaranteed true" = 1, this argument looks like the following:

A < 1
B < 1
Therefore A = B
That's clever. I hope you don't mind if I used that sometime at work. :-)
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Post by Alyeska »

Many thanks people. I will start working on a rebuttal shortly.
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Post by wolveraptor »

You might do well to point out that the Intelligent Designer can only be a god, since IDers have ruled out naturalistic explanations. This proves that it has an undeniable basis in desperate theism.
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Post by Zero »

Intelligent design WOULD be a scientific theory if it could cite verifiable evidence of the designer, and explain the method by which said designer created living creatures. Currently, its only claims are that some features of living creatures aren't explainable by the theory of evolution.

The reason it's bullshit is, methinks, because of taxonomy. We group living creatures based on shared characteristics, and these shared characteristics aren't indicative of any kind of designer, but make an awful lot of sense if you believe that the many species all descended with common traits from some initial replicator.

Darwin's theory of evolution explains why we can group creatures based on shared characteristics, as well as having much evidence for it in terms of the fossil record, genetics, and empiracle data. Intelligent design, as it is, has the problem of creating more questions then it claims to answer.

Questions it claims to answer:
Where did life come from?

Questions it creates:
What is the nature of this intelligent designer?
What was this designer's intention?
What method did this designer use?
Where did this designer come from?


There are probably more that it creates, but I don't really have the time or care to explain precisely how stupid this whole thing is.

Basic point? Nothing's proven, but that doesn't mean all ideas and claims are equal. We base them on evidence.

In this case, Evolution>ID, because evolution answers the same question that ID does without forcing us to ask many questions that we currently have no answer to, and because ID actually brings up many more questions then answers.
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Post by Wyrm »

Not only is an "intelligent designer" bad science, but it's also bad theology:
William H. Jefferys wrote:As long as those appeals are based on pseudo-theories like “intelligent design,” they use the intelligent designer to plug a gap in present-day science, where it is used to “explain” that which is currently unexplained. This entails the risk that what is currently unexplained may be explained in the future, which makes such a god into an “incredible shrinking God-of-the-Gaps.” The gods of the gaps are the nature gods who under the name of Thor once “explained” thunder and lightning and who as Vulcan once “explained” earthquakes and who as Persephone returning from Hades once “explained” the coming of spring. These are not gods of power, but of weakness.

But there are other theological dangers in these “design” arguments, as Tom Scharle has pointed out [4]. For example, Behe (1996) makes much of the idea of “irreducible complexity,” by which he means functional structures which could not function if any part is removed. He claims that these structures cannot arise through biological evolution (although reputable scientists have disputed this claim, and indeed the Nobel laureate H.J. Muller [5] described such systems and showed how they could evolve as early as 1939, and even Darwin ([1859] 1872, 6: “Modes of Transition”) understood and addressed the issue). Specific examples Behe presents are “the flagellum,” “the immune system,” and “the clotting system.” In earlier days, the target of anti-evolutionists was often “the eye,” usually using out-of-context a quotation from Darwin that was actually intended to show how eyes could arise by a process of modification from simple light-sensitive cells to full-blown camera-like eyes (Darwin [1859] 1872, 6: “Organs of Extreme Perfection”). The cry is “what is the use of half an eye or wing?” Well, half an eye is better than none if it allows you to detect the presence of a predator and escape from it. And a half a wing can sail a stonefly across a lake.

To appeal to the designer of, say, “the eye” or “the flagellum” has its own theological perils. For, if these structures are designed intelligently, we may well ask, what is their purpose? Presumably, intelligent design is there for a purpose. Undirected “design,” as with natural selection, has function but not purpose. For example, consider the eagle’s eye: Its purpose would presumably be to enable the eagle to detect and catch prey. But what of the prey? What is the purpose the rabbit’s eye? Clearly, if it has purpose, one purpose is to keep the rabbit from being eaten by predators like the eagle. Thus the design of the rabbit’s eye and the design of the eagle’s eye are antagonistic. Similarly, what is the purpose of the flagellum of a pathogenic bacterium? Clearly, one purpose would be to help the bacterium to infect its host more effectively. And what of the host’s immune system? Is its purpose not to protect the host from infection by the bacterium? Again, we see designs that are at cross-purposes.

Thus we see that the designer of “intelligent design theory” has to be a highly conflicted designer. This designer is designing structures in various organisms that are intended to defeat the purpose of other structures in other organisms designed by the same designer. This is quite different from the way human designers behave. To return to Paley’s example, a human designer does not normally design a watch that contains parts intended to destroy other parts of the watch.

...

All of this brings us to Scharle’s final theological conundrum for advocates of “intelligent design.” Nothing in the writings of these advocates encourages us to make the leap from the existence of these “intelligent designers” to gods that might have a personal relationship with human beings or even any interest in us at all as individuals. The gods that “intelligent design” implies don’t seem to be interested in us as individual human beings. They are interested in designing flagellae, eyes, immune systems, clotting cascades, fine-tuned universes. They design all this stuff and then abandon it to develop, like a pantheon of multiple deistic gods. Or worse, they design this stuff from pre-existing matter that they found lying around, just like gnostic demiurges or even intelligent space aliens. Like demiurges or space aliens, and unlike the omnipotent God of scripture, these designers act in ways that are constrained by the physical properties of matter. Indeed, Behe (1996, 248ff) has even suggested that space aliens could have designed his “irreducibly complex structures.” Behe probably doesn’t believe that this happened, but the notion certainly is consistent with his arguments. In any case, such conclusions ought to be profoundly disturbing to Christians.

Edward T. Oakes, S.J., (2001) in a devastating review of a recent book by “intelligent design” advocate Phillip Johnson, quotes Cardinal Newman: “Half the world knows nothing of the argument from design—and when you have got it, you do not prove by it the moral attributes of God—except very faintly. Design teaches me power, skill, and goodness [meaning here, cleverness in craftsmanship], not sanctity, not mercy, not a future judgment, which three are of the essence of religion…I believe in design because I believe in God, not in a God because I see design.” [Emphasis mine.] Newman’s criticisms were directed towards the argument from design of his day, but they are still apt after nearly a century and a half.

...

“Intelligent design” can only undermine both science and religion. It undermines science because it presents as science a caricature of science, railing against legitimate science and presenting only sham science as an alternative. It undermines science because its real purpose is to weaken the teaching of genuine science in public schools. It undermines religion because its real purpose is hidden, not truthful. It undermines religion because the gods that it implies are nature gods like tree gods and flagellum gods and gods of rabbits eyes and gods of eagle eyes. It undermines religion because those gods are interested in technological fiddling and have no demonstrable interest in us as individual human beings. Who should be interested in such gods?

...

[4] Tom Scharle originally articulated the ideas attributed to him and mentioned in this essay on the Usenet news group talk.origins; they have not been formally published, but his Usenet articles may be found by searching on google.com.
[5] Muller (1939) shows that it is not only possible, but in fact expected for evolution to produce irreducibly complex structures sensu Behe; once such a structure arises, it cannot be removed, so evolution is not reversible. He uses “irreversibility” instead of Behe’s later term “irreducible complexity.”
(No link because I asked the man himself for a copy)

I find the bolded section especially poignant. These guys are advocating that the "intelligent designer(s)" are uninterested in actual human affairs. There's no point in worshiping these "gods", who could be space aliens, or adhering to the teachings of the Bible; they're just interested in stuff like clotting systems or flagella.

Clearly, the "gods" of "intelligent design" are not the God of the Bible. You lose, IDers! :)
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Post by wautd »

Man, if only you posted that article a few weeks earlier. Some realy usefull quotes in there :(
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Post by wolveraptor »

It's totally true. I used to think that space aliens wouldn't work because they too would be have these "irreducibly complex" organs, but Behe only points out these things in terrestrial life. Aliens could very well have made life on Earth. It's more probably than god.
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Post by Captain Cyran »

Out of mild curiousity. What if ID were taught in, say, a Cultures or some class that deals with religion instead of a science class? (In my high school it was history class) My philosophy class had this discussion a few months ago, frankly there were a bunch of people that didn't seem to get why teaching Intelligent Design was a bad idea, kind of sad.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Intelligent Design would be an excellent subject in a Politics class, because that's where it belongs. Dr. Behe himself tacitly admitted that the only way to classify it as a scientific theory was to loosen up your definition of "scientific theory" so wide that it accepts astrology.
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