Always two there are....

Shadow WarChief · Post by **Shadow WarChief** » 2005-11-10 05:40pm

...a master and an apprentice.

We're all familiar with Yoda's little line at Qui Gon's funeral in ep.1, summarizing Bane's rule of two. but...shouldn't Yoda NOT know this? If Darth Bane's order was formed secretly after the "extinction" of which Ki-adi spoke...why does Yoda have info on a Sith tradition of a sith order that he's not supposed to know exists?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-11-10 05:48pm

I think Yoda was refering to a much older Sith tradition, meaning there's always 1 apprentice per master (though the number of masters with in the sith order is unlimited (before Bane) as if there would more one they gang up on the master and there needs to be at least 1 apprentice for order to survive.

The Jazz Intern · Post by **The Jazz Intern** » 2005-11-10 07:25pm

Lord Revan wrote:meaning there's always 1 apprentice per master (e.

Just like with the jedi!
About ganging up, that seems logical. A friend said he read somewhere that it is traditional for the apprentace to kill his master to complete his training. I thought it was codswallop, but maybe not...

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-10 07:36pm

The Jazz Intern wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:meaning there's always 1 apprentice per master (e.
Just like with the jedi!
About ganging up, that seems logical. A friend said he read somewhere that it is traditional for the apprentace to kill his master to complete his training. I thought it was codswallop, but maybe not...

Um, that is Sith custom. When an apprentice finishes his training, he must challenge his master. If he defeats and kills him, he becomes the master, and if he is defeated, the master kills him and searches for a new apprentice. It seems that even Palpatine was ready for this outcome, at least in ROTS. However, it seems by ROTJ, he has become attached to his power, and thus opts for a search for immortality.

The Jazz Intern · Post by **The Jazz Intern** » 2005-11-10 07:47pm

But then what if a padawan killed his master prematurely? wouldn't that screw up the system?

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2005-11-10 07:52pm

Uh-huh, lost knowledge has always been a Sith problem. However, the Sith would argue that there's no such thing as killing your master prematurely. I mean, you obviously know enough to beat him.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-10 07:53pm

The Jazz Intern wrote:But then what if a padawan killed his master prematurely? wouldn't that screw up the system?

The point is that if a apprentice is able to kill a real Sith lord, either though cunning or brute force, he is powerful enough to train his own students and perpetuate the line.

The Jazz Intern · Post by **The Jazz Intern** » 2005-11-10 07:57pm

okay. I submit to your point.

The Jazz Intern · Post by **The Jazz Intern** » 2005-11-10 07:58pm

okay. I submit to your point. it just seemed strange, since you'd lose all your masters. maybe it'd be good because you'd never have weak sith.

JediMaster415 · Post by **JediMaster415** » 2005-11-10 08:24pm

The Jazz Intern wrote:maybe it'd be good because you'd never have weak sith.

That's the point of the custom. They believe in power and strength; the weak deserve none.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2005-11-10 09:23pm

Yoda knew of the current Sith prophecy and he spoke of it. How could the Jedi even think the Sith were extinct if they didnt know the current tradition of 2 Sith a Master and Apprentice. The whole Clone Wars campaign for the Jedi was finding the 2nd Sith. not the 2nd of 20 Sith

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-11-10 10:07pm

Yoda might have known far more than he was letting on. Darth Bane formed his order 'secretly', but we dont know how 'secret' this was...secret like the Death Star exhaust port? Maybe someone passed the info along to the upper Jedi Masters, Yoda included, and they kept it under wraps until it became relevent. After all as far as they knew the Sith were effectively extinct, maybe there was two left, or maybe there werent any. But if it ever came up, they knew what to look for.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-11-11 01:59am

To expound on 18's point a little bit, perhaps the Jedi knew of the Sith line founded by Darth Bane, but were under the impression it had petered out centuries ago; then, when Darth Maul came out, they realized what was going on.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-11-11 03:08am

Also-- it's easy to forget just how damn old Yoda is.

'For 800 years I have trained Jedi'-- if we're to take Mace's quote about the Sith being extinct for a thousand years at face value, and assume that Yoda became a Jedi Master sometime in his first century, then he would have been only a few human generations away (considering the state of SW medical tech) from the last Sith. In fact, he could very well be one of the last eyewitnesses of the Sith, if not THE last person who was alive in their last time of glory.

Is it so mysterious, then, that he would be the one most likely to know a fair bit about Sith customs and practices? And one hardly thinks he would keep such information from the Jedi Council...

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-11-11 12:52pm

Plus IIRC the RotS novel aludes to the Jedi Order training to an eventual confrontation with the Sith. The line was something along the lines of "they (the jedi) had been training for generations, unfortunately the Sith had changed their methods of battle".

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2005-11-11 10:41pm

Noble Ire wrote:Um, that is Sith custom. When an apprentice finishes his training, he must challenge his master. If he defeats and kills him, he becomes the master, and if he is defeated, the master kills him and searches for a new apprentice.

Where did this come from?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-11 10:48pm

Elfdart wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:Um, that is Sith custom. When an apprentice finishes his training, he must challenge his master. If he defeats and kills him, he becomes the master, and if he is defeated, the master kills him and searches for a new apprentice.
Where did this come from?

Multiple CW books (like Yoda: DR) and IIRC, the TPM and ROTS novelizations.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-11-12 12:04am

I could be that the movie took a different route than what the book implies. If Darth Maul was a Sith, some one had to train him. It's not like Qui Jon came back to the cancel and told them their good friend 'Bob' became a Sith and attacked him.

This 'assialint' was well trained in the Jedi arts. So who trained him? After Yoda spits out the line, Mace windu asks 'But who did we kill, the Master or the Aprentice'?. Pretty straight forward, did they kill the source of the problem or the next gen?

By AotC's they had their answer. By RotS, they were hunting for the 'Master' and new Maul was the student.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2005-11-12 01:38pm

Had Count Dooku left, or been expelled from, the Jedi order at this point? I'm thinking, if I were on the Jedi Council, he'd be the #1 suspect for being Maul's teacher. I'd also start going through the records to find any missing members, expelled members, washouts and Force-sensitives rejected by the order who fit Maul's description. It makes a lot of sense to take Yoda's theory about the Sith making a comeback seriously, but I'd be looking for it to come from some renegades from the Jedi order. Also, after the events of Episode 2, I'd begin investigating the members of the Senate and their staffs, looking through order records for any indication that they are Force-sensitive. It's possible the Sith lord Dooku said was manipulating the Senate would be one the Jedi have no records on, but it's better to cover all the bases.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2005-11-12 01:43pm

I was under the impression that Dooku left the order very shortly after the death of Qui-Gon Jinn, succeeded in tracking down Sidious, but was then urned to the dark side by him.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-11-12 01:52pm

CDiehl wrote:Had Count Dooku left, or been expelled from, the Jedi order at this point? I'm thinking, if I were on the Jedi Council, he'd be the #1 suspect for being Maul's teacher.

It was around the time of Ep. I, yes. But the council in Ep. II seems to think he is just a misguided idealist.

I'd also start going through the records to find any missing members, expelled members, washouts and Force-sensitives rejected by the order who fit Maul's description.

There were only 20 (hence the lost twenty). The washouts, would have been to young to learn much or to be to dangerous, though perhaps enough to seek out a new master.

It makes a lot of sense to take Yoda's theory about the Sith making a comeback seriously, but I'd be looking for it to come from some renegades from the Jedi order. Also, after the events of Episode 2, I'd begin investigating the members of the Senate and their staffs, looking through order records for any indication that they are Force-sensitive. It's possible the Sith lord Dooku said was manipulating the Senate would be one the Jedi have no records on, but it's better to cover all the bases.

The Jedi did just that, though. They tracked Dooku and knew he came to Coruscant. The knew by Ep. II that Maul was not the 'Master' and were openly hunting that Master. By Ep III, they found Sidious's hideout and found a tunnel system connecting it to the more wealthy suburbs-like places that hte politicians used on Coruscant and were worried that a high place aide or some such on Palpatines staff was the Dark Lord.

Darth Quorthon · Post by **Darth Quorthon** » 2005-11-12 02:02pm

I remember something Mace Windu said in the ROTS novel slong the lines of "...ever since the fall of Darth Bane nearly a millennium ago...", although I can't remember what page it was on. This at least suggests that the Jedi had some knowledge of Bane and perhaps his methods. Also, there was a source that spoke of Bane hatching the plan to put the Sith into the pair structure in the waning days of a war between the Jedi and the Sith, so perhaps some info could have leaked out.

dworkin · Post by **dworkin** » 2005-11-12 02:58pm

I recall Palpatine mentioning that the Jedi Temple had some ancient Sith records in the restricted section of their library. Sometime during his tenure Yoda has read them.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2005-11-12 03:02pm

dworkin wrote:I recall Palpatine mentioning that the Jedi Temple had some ancient Sith records in the restricted section of their library. Sometime during his tenure Yoda has read them.

Spoilers!

Yet according to Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader the Sith texts the Jedi had where forgeries and disinformation

Hedgehog's Roommate · Post by **Hedgehog's Roommate** » 2005-11-12 06:44pm

CDiehl wrote: I'm thinking, if I were on the Jedi Council, he'd be the #1 suspect for being Maul's teacher.

This is where Jedi arrogance comes in. In AOTC Amidala suggests to Mace and Yoda that Dooku might have been the one behind the attempt on her life, yet Mace, almost casually, dismisses it out of hand because Dooku was a Jedi at one time. They didn't even want to think that even a former Jedi could do something like that.

I'd also start going through the records to find any missing members, expelled members, washouts and Force-sensitives rejected by the order who fit Maul's description. It makes a lot of sense to take Yoda's theory about the Sith making a comeback seriously, but I'd be looking for it to come from some renegades from the Jedi order.

Dooku also erased a number of records at one time, we just don't know what or how many. Again arrogance plays into this. The head librarian out of hand dismisses Obi-Wan's statement of how he can't find a planet by saying "If it's not in our records it does not exist." Seems kinda simple that if he erased a planet he could erase some co-conspirators, and the Jedi probably wouldn't even try to investigate because "...it does not exist".

Also, after the events of Episode 2, I'd begin investigating the members of the Senate and their staffs, looking through order records for any indication that they are Force-sensitive. It's possible the Sith lord Dooku said was manipulating the Senate would be one the Jedi have no records on, but it's better to cover all the bases.

Yet again arrogance. Obi-Wan tells at least Mace and Yoda, the dynamic duo, what Dooku said about the Sith. What does Yoda say? " Fallen to the dark side Dooku has, deception and lies his way now." He doesn't even want to entertain the possibility that Dooku was telling the truth, and Mace just nods sagely.

It's not that they couldn't investigate, it's that they didn't want to. They thought they knew better than anyone what was going on. I beleive that's one of the main reasons the Jedi were destroyed so easily.

It even extends to the clones. Yoda and Obi-Wan had a conversation, I can't remember the book, about how they beleive they were manipulated into finding Kamino and the clones. Yet they didn't bother to investigate further into the clones or their training. That could have at least given them more info on the Sith's identity, or a little warning concerning Order 66.