Xbox 360 launch backwards compatibility announced

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-11-12 02:24pm

Xbox 360 launch backwards compatibility announced wrote: At launch, the Xbox 360 is going to have backwards compatibility for a long list of games, provided the Xbox 360 in question sports a hard drive.

...

Todd Holmdahl, Corporate Vice President of the Xbox Product Group, said that all updates will be free, and available online or via snail mail.That said, there are some notable titles missing from the list, including some personal favorites such as Burnout 3, Tony Hawk Pro-Skater 2 & 3, and more recent games such as Burnout Revenge and Doom 3. Holmdahl, however, indicated that more games will be added in the future, partially based on gamers' requests, and that the company was going to work with game developers to make sure that titles developed for the original Xbox in the future will also be compatible. Holmdahl said that the company eventually plans to support the entire catalog for the original Xbox on the Xbox 360.

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100 percent backwards compatibility will be a boon for Microsoft, and we expect to see them use it to promote the next-gen console once the mad holiday rush finishes. It may give them a leg up on Sony, too; Sony's Reiko Sakamoto recently said that the PlayStation 3 may not be 100% backwards compatible.

Suck it hard those who said the Xbox360 wouldnt be backwards compatible with may of the games. Nor would they run well.

The aim of 100% coverage of the entire Xbox catalog, and providing all the Xbox360 games with 720p minimum and anti-aliasing.

Manus Celer Dei · Post by **Manus Celer Dei** » 2005-11-12 04:13pm

This is very nice indeed.

Also, HL2 is out for the Xbox? When the fuck did that happen?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-12 04:30pm

An interesting change from the early announcements that they would only support best-sellers.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-11-12 04:43pm

Wow, this is completely different from most other boards' reaction. This is actually negative. The list is VERY incomplete, and they don't come preloaded on the hard drive as we thought. Noticeable games missing:

ALL the Burnout games (1, 2, 3: Takedown, and 4: Revenge)

Pro Evo 4

Doom 3

Project Gotham Racing 2

Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2 and 3

Midtown Madness 3

Panzer Dragoon Orta

Serious Sam

Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball

All the Splinter Cell games

Counter-Strike

Dead to Rights

Top Spin

Conker

MechAssault 1 or 2

Metal Gear Solid 2

All the Madden games

NBA Street Vol 3

Star Wars Battlefront II

Timesplitters 3

The Warriors

Oddworld

Psychonauts

Prince of Persia: Warrior Within

Full Spectrum Warrior

Far Cry

---

One guy on Macrumors had 11 XBox games, and only 2 of them were on the list. Another guy, only 25% of his games were on the list.

All you XBox owners, would you mind posting how many games you own and how many are on the list? I'd like to keep track of the averages on different boards.

Any game that is not on the list will not work at all.

Xbox.com: What if I put in a game that isn't backward compatible?

Todd: I want to clarify—if a game isn’t on the list at Xbox.com/Games, it won’t run on your Xbox 360 console. Putting in a game that’s not on the list will give you a message saying that the game is not currently supported on Xbox 360 and point you to Xbox.com/Games for more information.

On top of that, the hard drive only comes preloaded with the patches (oops, 'emulation profiles') for Halo 1 and 2. Every time you put in a new XBox game, you have to go online and download the patch first. Don't have Live? You can order a CD from XBox.com, or download and burn them on your own CD.

This is a big pain to play some old games. Only Halo 1 and 2 are backwards compatible out of the box. PS3, on the other hand, has most titles working out of the box (not 100%, because there are no plugs for, say, the DDR dance mat and stuff).

However, there is a catch. To play an Xbox game on the 360, players must first insert the current-gen game into a next-gen console hooked up to Xbox Live. The system will check if the console has the latest emulation software. If not, it will automatically download said software, install it on the 360, restart, and load the original Xbox game. Obviously, a 360 hard drive--which comes with the Halo and Halo 2 software preinstalled--is required the backwards-compatibility software.

For 360 owners who either can't or won't log onto Xbox Live, Microsoft offers two other solutions. First, they can go to Xbox.com, download the emulators, burn them onto a CD, and then insert said CD into the 360, which will auto-install the software. The other option is to order a free CD from Xbox.com which will be mailed to the requestor for a "nominal" fee. However, the CD will be mailed out for free to Japanese 360 owners.

From GameSpot.

Suck it hard those who said the Xbox360 wouldnt be backwards compatible with may of the games.

Looks like it's NOT backwards compatable with many of the games.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-12 04:57pm

Praxis wrote:Wow, this is completely different from most other boards' reaction. The list is VERY incomplete. Noticeable games missing:

That'll teach me to trust ggs' claim.

ALL the Burnout games (1, 2, 3: Takedown, and 4: Revenge)

OUCH! Those were quality games!

Pro Evo 4

Doom 3

.....Wow. All that hype into getting Doom 3, and this? What the hell?

Project Gotham Racing 2

Isn't this the best racer for the X-Box? What the hey?

Midtown Madness 3

Panzer Dragoon Orta

They cut a Panzer Dragoon game?!?

Serious Sam

Straight up HERESY!

Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball

A serious hit to the teenage-fanboy quotient.

All the Splinter Cell games

Counter-Strike

More heresy.

Dead to Rights

Top Spin

All the Madden games

These games were some of the better and best selling on the X-Box. What happened? And why are people saying it's the full list?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-11-12 04:58pm

Just editted a few more in the list as you were posting that, too.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2005-11-12 05:01pm

PS3 emulation is going to have similar problems if the system doesn't have PS2/1 chips. They don't even have 100% compatibility with their new silver and slim PS2.

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2005-11-12 05:01pm

Another one that's not in that list

Sudeki

Beyond Good and Evil

Shenmue 2

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-12 05:04pm

Praxis wrote:Just editted a few more in the list as you were posting that, too.

I can add my comments.

MechAssault 1 or 2

Heard good things.

Metal Gear Solid 2

Just.. Just.. What the hell? Great game.

All the Madden games

NBA Street Vol 3

Star Wars Battlefront II

Now you're not even trying! It just came out!

Timesplitters 3

The Warriors

Oddworld

On behalf of Oddworld Inhabitants, I feel I should go hurt someone.

Psychonauts

Prince of Persia: Warrior Within

Full Spectrum Warrior

Far Cry

.....You know, I don't know what governs what you can emulate, really, but these are games they should have put some effort into. What are they carrying over? Halo, Halo 2, and Pink Princess Pony?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-11-12 05:04pm

Hamel wrote:PS3 emulation is going to have similar problems if the system doesn't have PS2/1 chips. They don't even have 100% compatibility with their new silver and slim PS2.

Well, the PS2 had the PS1 chip so it's possible they might do that...

Unlike Microsoft, Sony won't have to pay royalties to use bits of their processor, either (IIRC). And the games won't be hard drive dependent.

I don't think any system has ever had truely 100% backwards compatability. There were a few PS1 games that didn't work on the PS2.

If Sony DOES have the same problem as Microsoft, don't worry, you'll see plenty of people trashing Sony too

It would be incredibly ironic if Nintendo was the only one with full backwards compatability.

What are they carrying over? Halo, Halo 2, and Pink Princess Pony?

If its any consolation, SpongeBob Squarepants, Barbie Horse Adventures, and Yourself! Fitness all work

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-12 05:05pm

Hamel wrote:PS3 emulation is going to have similar problems if the system doesn't have PS2/1 chips. They don't even have 100% compatibility with their new silver and slim PS2.

If you think the anti-PS folks here won't be tearing that up, you really don't know this board.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2005-11-12 05:13pm

SirNitram wrote:
Hamel wrote:PS3 emulation is going to have similar problems if the system doesn't have PS2/1 chips. They don't even have 100% compatibility with their new silver and slim PS2.
If you think the anti-PS folks here won't be tearing that up, you really don't know this board.

Don't get me wrong, I have no dog in this fight. Nintendo is probably the only one who won't have problems with backwards compatibility and emulation.

Gerard_Paloma · Post by **Gerard_Paloma** » 2005-11-12 05:19pm

That really is a very poor list. Of the games that I own that are on the list:
Crimson Skies
Forza Motorsport
Halo
Halo 2
Red Dead Revolver
Sega GT 2002

But the list is missing many of the topflight titles (some have been mentioned, some not), also in my collection:
The Burnout series
The Def Jam series
The Fight Night series
Metal Gear Solid 2
The Oddworld series
Project Gotham Racing 2
Psychonauts
The Splinter Cell series

The site mentions "The folks at Xbox® are working hard to add more of your favorite games to this list, so check back often for the latest updates." We'll see.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2005-11-12 05:49pm

How the fuck can they not have Pro Evo 4 with BC? Are there any European members who don't own that game for their XBox?

Oh silly me, the Americans at Microsoft don't care about 'soccer' even though it is one of the only reasons I got an XBox.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-11-12 07:24pm

So, final verdict is:

You must have a HDD($), Live($), and the 360 itself($) to get backwards compatibility. And it's only for certain games, discounting alot of popular ones. The 360 'core' is looking less and less viable.

C'mon, Revolution. Live up to that no charge claim. Please. PLEASE!

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2005-11-12 08:56pm

It sounds like making a 360 version of each game is somewhat time consuming. Anyone hazard a guess as to the quality we are going to see, will old xbox games run better on the 360 (they should...), or perhaps worse?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-11-13 01:33am

InnocentBystander wrote:It sounds like making a 360 version of each game is somewhat time consuming. Anyone hazard a guess as to the quality we are going to see, will old xbox games run better on the 360 (they should...), or perhaps worse?

They should run the same, although some titles are enhanced (Halo 2 runs in 720p w/ 4x AA, for example).

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-11-13 01:42am

Manus Celer Dei wrote:Also, HL2 is out for the Xbox? When the fuck did that happen?

It happened next Tuesday. November 15th is when it comes out.

And this is just the PRELIMINARY compatibility list. Unlike what Nitram has insinuated, you will, in fact, be able to get future compatibility information without Live by asking for an update CD from Microsoft.

I'm not even going to give his implication that the Core system was ever a viable option for a gamer the dignity of a response.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-11-13 02:20am

Praxis wrote:On top of that, the hard drive only comes preloaded with the patches (oops, 'emulation profiles') for Halo 1 and 2. Every time you put in a new XBox game, you have to go online and download the patch first. Don't have Live? You can order a CD from XBox.com, or download and burn them on your own CD.

Relatively long list of supported games.

It is not just Halo 1 & Halo 2.

Looks like it's NOT backwards compatable with many of the games.

No shit, I never claimed that it was backwards compatable with all games. I did claim that they aim to have 100% coverage of the entire Xbox catalog. With more popular games being added sooner.

And since I live in Australia, I have to wait till sometime next year for the xbox360 to finally show up. So by then more games will be added to the list.

Praxis wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:It sounds like making a 360 version of each game is somewhat time consuming. Anyone hazard a guess as to the quality we are going to see, will old xbox games run better on the 360 (they should...), or perhaps worse?
They should run the same, although some titles are enhanced (Halo 2 runs in 720p w/ 4x AA, for example).

The article says all of them will have the min Xbox360 specs of 720p w/ 4x AA. I suspect they are recompiling the games using a bunch of source-code based hacks.

SirNitram wrote:You must have a HDD($), Live($), and the 360 itself($) to get backwards compatibility. And it's only for certain games, discounting alot of popular ones. The 360 'core' is looking less and less viable.

Do need to pay for the 360 itself & the hdd. But Live does have a cheap-ass "free" mode which is probably for patch distribution & the like (a few other stuff IIRC).

Only a moron would buy the 360 'core' system. Or if they were replacing the 360 console itself and already had all the assesories.

Instant Sunrise · Post by **Instant Sunrise** » 2005-11-13 02:27am

Q&A with the guy responsible for the backwards compatability:

Xbox.com: Are there any emulators already pre-loaded on the hard drive?

Todd: An early version of the emulator that supports Halo®: Combat Evolved and Halo® 2 offline is included on Xbox 360 Hard Drives right out of the box as a special bonus to devoted fans of the franchise. However, to play Halo 2 online, or to play any other titles on the launch list, the full emulator update is required.

From what it sounds like, the 360 uses High-Level Emulation (like Ultra-HLE). To play xbox 1 games. Then they check each games that uses it to make sure that is works properly, then they unlock it in the emulator.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-11-13 02:46am

And the reason that the Splinter Cell games aren't compatible is that they had extremely specific API code written for their lighting system, which was specifically coded for the X-Box hardware... and the 360 does not contain a regular X-Box's hardware. So it will be a difficult task to emulate the SP games for the 360, if it is ever done at all.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-11-13 07:35am

Considering they are using software emulation, the list is pretty fair. I'm also glad that I'll be able to play some of my games in high-def with AA; that's the biggest selling point with me. But no Panzer Dragoon Orta? Come on, get cracking on that!

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-11-13 12:04pm

ggs wrote:
Praxis wrote:On top of that, the hard drive only comes preloaded with the patches (oops, 'emulation profiles') for Halo 1 and 2. Every time you put in a new XBox game, you have to go online and download the patch first. Don't have Live? You can order a CD from XBox.com, or download and burn them on your own CD.
Relatively long list of supported games.

It is not just Halo 1 & Halo 2.

Dude, read my post. The HARD DRIVE only comes preloaded with Halo 1 and 2. See that big list? You have to download those off Live, or order the CD. It's an extra hassle. That list doesn't work out of the box.

I'll quote it AGAIN:

GameSpot wrote:However, there is a catch. To play an Xbox game on the 360, players must first insert the current-gen game into a next-gen console hooked up to Xbox Live. The system will check if the console has the latest emulation software. If not, it will automatically download said software, install it on the 360, restart, and load the original Xbox game. Obviously, a 360 hard drive--which comes with the Halo and Halo 2 software preinstalled--is required to store the backwards-compatibility software.

I already saw that list ages ago, thats where I started that list of big names that aren't on it.

No shit, I never claimed that it was backwards compatable with all games. I did claim that they aim to have 100% coverage of the entire Xbox catalog. With more popular games being added sooner.

And since I live in Australia, I have to wait till sometime next year for the xbox360 to finally show up. So by then more games will be added to the list.

I didn't say you did. You said "suck it hard those who said the XBox360 wouldn't be backwards compatible with many of the games". I pointed out that it's NOT backwards compatible with many of the high-selling games.

The article says all of them will have the min Xbox360 specs of 720p w/ 4x AA. I suspect they are recompiling the games using a bunch of source-code based hacks.

Oh, hey, cool. The other article I read said just Halo would get 720p, so that's nice. Didn't realize that.

And yeah, even more reason to believe that they're just recompiling the games instead of emulation (seriously, what the heck is an "emulation profile" and why do you need to download one for each game?).

From what it sounds like, the 360 uses High-Level Emulation (like Ultra-HLE). To play xbox 1 games. Then they check each games that uses it to make sure that is works properly, then they unlock it in the emulator.

No, because you have to download a seperate "emulation profile" for each and every game you play. That means either:

1) They create a special optimized emulator for every game
or
2) As previously rumored, these 'emulation profiles' are in fact recompiled binaries so that the games run natively on the 360.

Netko · Post by **Netko** » 2005-11-13 01:16pm

I don't really see the problem with having the xbox check the website and download an emulator if its needed. This is 2005, almost everybody who has a console can find a way to connect it to the net. And even if that is too complicated for you, you can just burn the emulator at any computer with a cd writer AND you have the final option of calling microsoft up and getting the CD with the emulator(s) for S&H.

Sure its not OOB, but it's not much worse.

As far as actual implementation, rumors I've seen point to them making the Halo games and a couple of other high profile games working and then running the rest of the game catalogue thru the emulator they had set up with minimal tweaks. So this list is basicly Halo, a couple of other heavy hitters plus low hanging fruit. Considering their stated intent of getting 100% compatibility, I'm sure you'll see batches of games suddenly get compatibility as they figure out how to emulate certain options.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2005-11-13 01:37pm

It's not complicated for me, but we tech guys on this board are a minority, remember. There's a lot of kids and computer illiterates that play on the systems (remember how only 5% of users played on XBox Live). Most people expect to buy the system, pop in the disk, and play.

Now people are going to buy the system reading the pamphlets that say backwards compatible, and find out that a lot of their games don't run and those that do require them to order a CD or connect the system to the internet and download a bunch of patches, and a lot of average people will find that frustrating.