[ryan8723] Rat bastard frat boy hits and kills grad student

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2005-11-14 12:26am

Darth Wong wrote:At my university, we didn't have any prominent fraternities, and none with on-campus lodgings. Of course, we also didn't obsess over our sports team or pay the sports coaches far more money than the best-paid academic professors, nor did female students aspire to the cheerleading team as if it was a great honour. In fact, the football team was lucky to get anybody to watch their games besides their immediate friends and family, and the handful of off-campus fraternities had to run around asking guys in my class if we wanted to join. Most of us said no.

Of course, we actually considered ourselves a place of learning, rather than sports and drinking. Strange priorities we Canadians have, eh?

You had a football team? We didn't. Although we did have four fraternities with on-campus housing (each got half of a building; the other half was non-Greek). Out of the four that existed when I graduated, two were on probation where if any member was in violation of any school policy the on-campus chapter would be barred from existing for five years. They really shouldn't have pissed off Judicial multiple times in multiple semesters.

I'll admit we did pride ourselves on a few of our sports teams (primarily baseball, softball, and golf), but the overall GPA for our athletes was about the same as for non-athlete students. And drinking was technically banned on campus (and a couple students did get suspended for grossly and moronically violating the ban and law), but there was usually about one or two parties a week involving alcohol somewhere (although the smart ones went off-campus).

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-11-14 12:30am

The Guid wrote:So its possible to not join any one of them and still be part of the University? Is it still possible to get accomadation on campus if one is not part of them? I'm just trying to get a picture in my head. Thanks for the help.

Indeed. My school only had three Greek clubs (other than the prestigious Phi Beta Kappa), and all of them were pretty much jokes. They didn't have on-campus buildings, and all they did was get together a couple of days a month and drink or occasionally put on some charitable event. None of them had more than a tiny fraction of the total population as members at any one time, and almost all students never once attended one of their events.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2005-11-14 12:37am

Isn't there a lot of old boys club limp-wristedness over the bad side of fraternities? I'm an Australian, and I've never met anyone who wouldn't laugh at the idea of the uni covering up for us if we broke the law, but such stories trickle into our media from time to time. How significant are the sterotypically bad parts, and why don't administrators get rid of them?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2005-11-14 12:46am

Stark wrote:Isn't there a lot of old boys club limp-wristedness over the bad side of fraternities? I'm an Australian, and I've never met anyone who wouldn't laugh at the idea of the uni covering up for us if we broke the law, but such stories trickle into our media from time to time. How significant are the sterotypically bad parts, and why don't administrators get rid of them?

Sometimes the administration doesn't want to have to deal with potential lawsuits from national organizations, even if the frat is clearly in the wrong. It's also often difficult to officially link an official organization to the actions of its members. Sure, almost all of the people at this party "happened" to be members of Epsilon Tau Ignoramus, but the fraternity was totally unaware of their actions. Also, a lot of the time faculty members have links to various frats, and there IS a sense of tradition behind some of them that can make them difficult to deal with. The frats also have been known to stick up for each other, since they know if one of them goes down then the rest of them can't be far behind. Even if singly they tend to make up only a small fraction of the student body, together they can easily get more than 20% of the students on some campuses.

Part of why I think Pomona had its frats mostly under control was that they were not nationally recognized, and Pomona had enough money and the frats lacked sufficient clout to do any damage to the school legally even if they tried. Their limited scale (only, maybe, 50 or 75 members between three of them) also prevented them from becoming major issues.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-11-14 12:47am

Isn't there a lot of old boys club limp-wristedness over the bad side of fraternities?

That would be an understatement. When they fuck up and get caught in very public ways, generally action will be taken. Otherwise they get to do whatever they want.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-11-14 01:13am

HemlockGrey wrote:
Why the HELL don't they just kick the fraternities off campus already? They're a menace.
But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Rouge - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, I'm not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Good day, sir!

I thought you were pre-med.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-11-14 01:14am

Durandal wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:
Why the HELL don't they just kick the fraternities off campus already? They're a menace.
But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Rouge - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, I'm not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Good day, sir!
I thought you were pre-med.

Yeah, better listen to him

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2005-11-14 01:15am

After all, pre-med, pre-law, same thing.

Instant Sunrise · Post by **Instant Sunrise** » 2005-11-14 02:43am

This is one my favorite things about Community College. People only care about classes, and don't hold much loyalty to the institution itself(My school in particular has the highest transfer rate in California). Hence the pool for fraternities is extremely shallow. In fact, they don't even allow closed groups/clubs, except for Honors programs. Fraternities were banned at the outset.

I don't see any reason that social fraternites should continue to exist. If the administration doen't have the balls to ban them outright, they could create incentives not to join them. Have them take excruciatingly boring classes on "social responsibility and ethics" and "the dangers of drugs and alcohol," that are only offered on friday mornings. A mind-numbing class that is required for ALL frat members would be a deathblow for the system. Require it in publically funded school, and offer a scholarship for staying out of a frat. Frat membership would decrease dramatically.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-11-14 06:49am

Kick them off campus, 0 tolerence policy for anyone belonging to one

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2005-11-14 09:24am

It never made sense to me how "the Greek System" could be officially incorporated and sanctioned into a University's student life and housing policies and budget. Why should Fraternities get University funding, status of official recognition, and sometimes even land and housing without the University sharing in the liability such as in the cases where out-of-control binge drinking and drug-use result in students' deaths.

Sharp-kun · Post by **Sharp-kun** » 2005-11-14 10:04am

I've never really understood the whole fraternity thing. I'm happy with the system here, where there's the students union (which is for everyone), and the assorted small clubs coming off it (RP, Retro Gamers etc).

Simple, no hassle.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2005-11-14 12:16pm

Damn frat-rats.. there really is no real point to the existance of most of these damn things other than to booze it up, just another example of that whole 'it's tradition so we should stick with it no matter how fucking stupid it is' mentality.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-11-14 12:57pm

I'm glad my small college is devoid of frats. Sure, there's still drinking and parties every Friday night, but at least generally isn't the binge-drinking that can occur at frat parties and the campus is small enough that drunk driving isn't a concern if the party is on-campus and the students live on-campus.

I don't get why the hell social fraternities exist. "Oh, let's have an official system of drinking buddies and get the Uni to pay for our housing!" Seriously, what the hell? I'd be quite pleased if tomorrow every university in the United States decided to boot every social fraternity from their campus because it encourages alcholism and drug abuse. It does not make sense that the public as a whole is paying for these assholes to be alcoholics.

ryan8723 · Post by **ryan8723** » 2005-11-14 01:48pm

As probably the lone fraternity member here (I am a Kappa Sigma), I guess I will speak out in defense of my fraternity.

Yes, I will admit that it is basically just a group of guys who party together. The only reason we have dues is to pay for parties and for renting out bars (of course we also have to pay our nationals money to continue using the name Kappa Sigma, of course all of that money goes to waste because our nationals just gives the money to themselves).

I also will admit that our philanthropy project (in our case we put on Wicked Woods, which is a haunted house type thing behind our house) is basically a joke as the overwhelming majority of the money we make we keep for ourselves. Of course this also allows us to keep our dues low.

The university I go to does not pay for our house, we do that ourselves. Our alumni own the house and we pay rent to them. This also applies to all fraternities and sororities at my university since all houses are located off campus.

Also even before I joined my fraternity, I was binge drinking and going out to bars all the time. The only thing that really separates fraternities and sororities from the general population at my university is the fact that our parties tend to be more organized and extravagant, which is why we pays dues.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-11-14 01:52pm

ryan8723 wrote:Also even before I joined my fraternity, I was binge drinking and going out to bars all the time.

So you've been a moron for a long time then.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-11-14 02:01pm

Rogue 9 wrote: United States of America. Good day, sir!

That's ridiculous and you know it. The fraternities are responsible for what goes on at their functions. They let illegal drugs into the party, let an underage child drink alcohol, and they let him drive away afterwards. This isn't the first time, either; it's just the worst that's come of many such instances. The fraternities are directly culpable here; the whole of American society is not. [/quote]

Yeah, because every other organized party by this age group is responsible about drugs and alcohol among partygoers. Sure.

And as the social fraternity system is needlessly destructive

How so? You think kids will suddenly stop organizing for the purposes of drinking and doing drugs if you get rid of the frats?

while serving no discernible constructive purpose,

People who are members enjoy them, that's enough of a contructive purpose for most things to remain legal unless they are grossly infringing on the rights of others.

I fail to see why they should be allowed to continue wrecking this campus. They have consistently broken the rules this semester; other schools have removed fraternities entirely for less than this.

Boot them off campus and they'll just form an off campus frat. It's not going to solve the problem as you see it.

Tennessee State at Knoxville, for instance, booted out a fraternity a couple years ago because of some of their members' choices in Halloween costume;

And you think this was appropriate?

here, someone actually died. There is more than enough grounds here. The fraternity was already on probation for the drinking at the conference anyway.

It says he stopped by a frat party briefly, I don't see how that is a reflection of the fraternity. It doesn't even say if he drank there or not. Hell, it doesn't even say if he was drunk when he got into the accident.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-11-14 02:02pm

For the part of the article, the boy should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

As for outlawing frats, no. Pointless endevour to go "Frats encourage drinking and drug use!!!". Bullshit unless someone has proof that students get conclusivly more drunk because they are in a frat, and not because they already are a fuckhead drunk.

It is at best a social club and should be treated as such. Simply have them not have priority within the school funding. If they can exist within the school through their own devices, so be it. No different in that regard to the multitudes of other groups within a school.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-11-14 02:03pm

The Kernel's apologism aside, I think any group that encourages binge drinking should be immediately banned from campus. Not to mention being banned from advertising on campus, organizing activities on campus, or advertising any kind of affiliation whatsoever with the school.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-11-14 02:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Kernel's apologism aside, I think any group that encourages binge drinking should be immediately banned from campus. Not to mention being banned from advertising on campus, organizing activities on campus, or advertising any kind of affiliation whatsoever with the school.

Apologism? I hate frats and frat boys, but I'm enough of a realist to know that you aren't going to solve college drinking by getting rid of them anymore then you are going to solve college drinking by eliminating sporting events. I say let the idiots have their little social clubs if they want, so long as they have to live by the same rules as everyone else.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-11-14 02:07pm

The Kernel wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The Kernel's apologism aside, I think any group that encourages binge drinking should be immediately banned from campus. Not to mention being banned from advertising on campus, organizing activities on campus, or advertising any kind of affiliation whatsoever with the school.
Apologism? I hate frats and frat boys, but I'm enough of a realist to know that you aren't going to solve college drinking by getting rid of them anymore then you are going to solve college drinking by eliminating sporting events. I say let the idiots have their little social clubs if they want, so long as they have to live by the same rules as everyone else.

This isn't the Prohibition argument. We're not talking about encouraging criminal activity by banning it in courts of law. The university can freely act to do whatever they feel is necessary to discourage binge drinking and dissociate it from the university without the kind of negative consequences that were associated with Prohibition, so the "they will do it anyway" argument doesn't fly. Expel any students caught binge drinking, and ban fraternities and any other groups encouraging binge drinking from associating themselves with the university in any way.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-11-14 02:13pm

The Kernel wrote:Yeah, because every other organized party by this age group is responsible about drugs and alcohol among partygoers. Sure.

The fact that there are other groups as stupid does not excuse the Frats.

How so? You think kids will suddenly stop organizing for the purposes of drinking and doing drugs if you get rid of the frats?

There will be LESS pressure to do so.

People who are members enjoy them, that's enough of a contructive purpose for most things to remain legal unless they are grossly infringing on the rights of others.

And pressuring young college studends to engage in absurdly reckless dangerous and addictive behavior like binge drinking doesn't infringe on someone's right to be free from harm?

Boot them off campus and they'll just form an off campus frat. It's not going to solve the problem as you see it.

They'll no longer have campus support or recruiting.

Tennessee State at Knoxville, for instance, booted out a fraternity a couple years ago because of some of their members' choices in Halloween costume;
And you think this was appropriate?

Depends on what the costumes were.

here, someone actually died. There is more than enough grounds here. The fraternity was already on probation for the drinking at the conference anyway.
It says he stopped by a frat party briefly, I don't see how that is a reflection of the fraternity. It doesn't even say if he drank there or not. Hell, it doesn't even say if he was drunk when he got into the accident.

If someone stops by a bar breifly and chugs himself to death, isn't the bar partly liable? Why shouldn't the same apply to Frats which ENCOURAGE the behavior?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-11-14 02:13pm

Darth Wong wrote: This isn't the Prohibition argument. We're not talking about encouraging criminal activity by banning it in courts of law. The university can freely act to do whatever they feel is necessary to discourage binge drinking and dissociate it from the university without the kind of negative consequences that were associated with Prohibition, so the "they will do it anyway" argument doesn't fly. Expel any students caught binge drinking, and ban fraternities and any other groups encouraging binge drinking from associating themselves with the university in any way.

Yeah, that's awfully realistic.

Technically most schools already have a zero tollerance policy for underage drinking, but very seldom are such rules enforced. Know why? Because they'd have to expel half the student body in most cases. The vast majority of colleges have been looking the other way for years, how exactly do you realistically expect schools to take on such draconian practices which will do little besides reduce the numbers of people willing to apply? And to anticipate your next move, I submit that kids that are caught binge drinking are not necessarily negative contributors to the student body, particularly if they aren't repeat offenders. Your solution solves nothing except to lower attendence.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-11-14 02:16pm

Kernel, there IS a difference between drinking and binge drinking. Expelling a student for the latter does not mean expelling him for the former.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2005-11-14 02:18pm

Darth Servo wrote: The fact that there are other groups as stupid does not excuse the Frats.

It shows quite clearly that the frats are not the cause of the problem.

There will be LESS pressure to do so.

What pressure? What possible pressure is there to attend a frat party in the first place? Frat parties are not mandatory parts of the college curriculum.

And pressuring young college studends to engage in absurdly reckless dangerous and addictive behavior like binge drinking doesn't infringe on someone's right to be free from harm?

And how is eliminating frats supposed to lessen the pressure to drink in college?

They'll no longer have campus support or recruiting.

And that will solve what? You think you will get lower numbers of people drinking? What exactly is the goal here?

If someone stops by a bar breifly and chugs himself to death, isn't the bar partly liable? Why shouldn't the same apply to Frats which ENCOURAGE the behavior?

What the fuck does this have to do with what I said? I said that alcohol wasn't even mentioned in the article and you respond with this total red herring?