[ryan8723] Rat bastard frat boy hits and kills grad student

[The Kernel]

Kernel, there IS a difference between drinking and binge drinking. Expelling a student for the latter does not mean expelling him for the former.

And how exactly do you define a "binge drinker" and what are the clear guidelines a school should use to differentiate between the two? If you suggest that a school should expel someone who is caught on repeated drinking offenses then I would agree with you. But I see no way to handle this on a first offense basis.

[Darth Servo]

It shows quite clearly that the frats are not the cause of the problem.

Of course not, since drinking goes back to the beginning of recorded history. But having popular social clubs like Fraternities is clearly a contributor to the problem.

What pressure? What possible pressure is there to attend a frat party in the first place? Frat parties are not mandatory parts of the college curriculum.

There are these things called "buddies" telling you, "There's going to be this great party this weekend. It will be fun. Everyone else will be there"

And how is eliminating frats supposed to lessen the pressure to drink in college?

There won't be these popular clubs requiring it for initiation? Haven't you even BEEN to college?

And that will solve what? You think you will get lower numbers of people drinking? What exactly is the goal here?

See my last post.

What the fuck does this have to do with what I said? I said that alcohol wasn't even mentioned in the article and you respond with this total red herring?

OK, I misread the point.

[Darth Servo]

And how exactly do you define a "binge drinker" and what are the clear guidelines a school should use to differentiate between the two? If you suggest that a school should expel someone who is caught on repeated drinking offenses then I would agree with you. But I see no way to handle this on a first offense basis.

Lets see. BAC. Whether or not he is observed chugging the beer. How many empty cans/bottles he has with him.

So difficult.

[The Kernel]

Lets see. BAC. Whether or not he is observed chugging the beer. How many empty cans/bottles he has with him.

So difficult.

I see, so in other words, a single offense is enough to get someone expelled. You don't see the problem with this? I'm all for expelling people who have repeated alcohol abuse problems, but you want to expell for a single instance of someone drinking a little bit more than they should of? Does the fact that being drunk can impair judgement and make you drink more (especially for newbies) add into this for you at all?

[Rogue 9]

That's ridiculous and you know it. The fraternities are responsible for what goes on at their functions. They let illegal drugs into the party, let an underage child drink alcohol, and they let him drive away afterwards. This isn't the first time, either; it's just the worst that's come of many such instances. The fraternities are directly culpable here; the whole of American society is not.

Yeah, because every other organized party by this age group is responsible about drugs and alcohol among partygoers. Sure.

Am I partially footing the bill for them to do this, though?

And as the social fraternity system is needlessly destructive

How so? You think kids will suddenly stop organizing for the purposes of drinking and doing drugs if you get rid of the frats?

No, but I think that the university doesn't need to encourage such activity.

while serving no discernible constructive purpose,

People who are members enjoy them, that's enough of a contructive purpose for most things to remain legal unless they are grossly infringing on the rights of others.

I agree in principle. Which is why when they remove someone's right to life, I see a problem.

I fail to see why they should be allowed to continue wrecking this campus. They have consistently broken the rules this semester; other schools have removed fraternities entirely for less than this.

Boot them off campus and they'll just form an off campus frat. It's not going to solve the problem as you see it.

They might, but they wouldn't be the university's responsibility at that point. Nadia's death aside, the university is more than likely up for liability in a wrongful death suit, and we the tuition-paying students have got to foot the bill for that too.

Tennessee State at Knoxville, for instance, booted out a fraternity a couple years ago because of some of their members' choices in Halloween costume;

And you think this was appropriate?

Not at all. I think the case was ridiculous; I was simply demonstrating precedent.

here, someone actually died. There is more than enough grounds here. The fraternity was already on probation for the drinking at the conference anyway.

It says he stopped by a frat party briefly, I don't see how that is a reflection of the fraternity. It doesn't even say if he drank there or not. Hell, it doesn't even say if he was drunk when he got into the accident.

He was drunk. You forget, I'm right here and knew both parties, albeit not very well, as well as the behavior of this particular fraternity chapter. Everything I know about Harrison points to him being the stereotypical rich brat with lots of money to blow; I know he drank a lot and drugs would not surprise me. (He was in the school paper once before, that time for a story about how he and his similarly rich-brat type roommate blew $7,000 on outfitting their dorm room without a second thought.) There is no way he went to a Lambda Chi party without getting well on the way to hammered. Nobody goes to one of their parties without getting completely hammered; the beer flows like water. People who were at the party said that Harrison was drunk off his ass by the time he left. Granted, that's hearsay, but I'd think they'd know what they were talking about. Further, he was coming from a frat party when he hit someone, just drove away, and claims to not remember it? Do you think someone who was not drunk could even think he could get away with claiming to not remember a thing about it when it just happened the night before?

[The Kernel]

Of course not, since drinking goes back to the beginning of recorded history. But having popular social clubs like Fraternities is clearly a contributor to the problem.

The studies on this matter are not conclusive. Fraternity members have higher levels of binge drinking, but then most of them did before they even joined a frat, dating back to high school. It's more likely that frats simply attract these kinds of people rather than create them.

There are these things called "buddies" telling you, "There's going to be this great party this weekend. It will be fun. Everyone else will be there"

Right, and getting rid of frats is going to stop this.

Come on, have you been to college? Binge drinking is big in college because it has been heavily romanticized by popular culture, not because of a bunch of social clubs.

There won't be these popular clubs requiring it for initiation? Haven't you even BEEN to college?

If you aren't interested in binge drinking in the first place, why would you join a frat?

See my last post.

No, I want specifics. Are you trying to reduce the amount of college alcohol consumption by eliminating frats?

[Darth Servo]

I see, so in other words, a single offense is enough to get someone expelled. You don't see the problem with this? I'm all for expelling people who have repeated alcohol abuse problems, but you want to expell for a single instance of someone drinking a little bit more than they should of? Does the fact that being drunk can impair judgement and make you drink more (especially for newbies) add into this for you at all?

I see college as a place for intelligent people. Not stupid people.

[Rogue 9]

Tennessee State at Knoxville, for instance, booted out a fraternity a couple years ago because of some of their members' choices in Halloween costume;

And you think this was appropriate?

Depends on what the costumes were.

For the record, the frat brothers in question at UT were five (white) guys from Jackson, Tennessee, known as the Jackson 5. You can guess what the costumes were, I think. I contend that suspension of the students for that was grossly inappropriate, but it does demonstrate how much of a hair trigger universities have for some issues with frats, but not others.

[The Kernel]

Am I partially footing the bill for them to do this, though?

So you would be perfectly fine with off campus frats like many schools have?

No, but I think that the university doesn't need to encourage such activity.

Unless the sole goal of fraternities is to promote drinking, then I don't see how this is much of a point. And once again, you would be fine with them as long as they were off campus and self suported?

I agree in principle. Which is why when they remove someone's right to life, I see a problem.

Then I suggest you are leading the wrong crusade. Alcohol is the cause of these problems, not fraternities.

They might, but they wouldn't be the university's responsibility at that point. Nadia's death aside, the university is more than likely up for liability in a wrongful death suit, and we the tuition-paying students have got to foot the bill for that too.

My university was also liable when a kid threw himself out of a fourth story dormroom when he was drunk. I doubt that means we should remove the dorms and force kids off campus to remove liability.

Not at all. I think the case was ridiculous; I was simply demonstrating precedent.

Different issue. Obviously schools have the right to remove frats, the question is do they have a moral obligation to do so.

He was drunk. You forget, I'm right here and knew both parties, albeit not very well, as well as the behavior of this particular fraternity chapter. Everything I know about Harrison points to him being the stereotypical rich brat with lots of money to blow; I know he drank a lot and drugs would not surprise me. (He was in the school paper once before, that time for a story about how he and his similarly rich-brat type roommate blew $7,000 on outfitting their dorm room without a second thought.) There is no way he went to a Lambda Chi party without getting well on the way to hammered. Nobody goes to one of their parties without getting completely hammered; the beer flows like water. People who were at the party said that Harrison was drunk off his ass by the time he left. Granted, that's hearsay, but I'd think they'd know what they were talking about. Further, he was coming from a frat party when he hit someone, just drove away, and claims to not remember it? Do you think someone who was not drunk could even think he could get away with claiming to not remember a thing about it when it just happened the night before?

Even if you are right though, he made the deicision to get in a car after getting smashed. The fault is his, not anyone elses.

[Darth Servo]

Fey, Frats encourage binge drinking. How can they NOT be a contributor to the problem?

Right, and getting rid of frats is going to stop this. Rolling Eyes

Nice black and white fallacy. So it either eliminates the problem completely or doesn't do jack? Roll your eyes back into your head.

Come on, have you been to college? Binge drinking is big in college because it has been heavily romanticized by popular culture, not because of a bunch of social clubs.

And that popular culture INCLUDES the Fraternities.

Your argument is like saying that because there are other sources of cocaine in the world, we shouldn't crack down on Columbia.

If you aren't interested in binge drinking in the first place, why would you join a frat?

Um, becasue all your FRIENDS joined it? Because your old man kept romanticizing about his glory days in old Sigma Chi or what ever? Because its a family tradition?[/quote]

[The Kernel]

I see, so in other words, a single offense is enough to get someone expelled. You don't see the problem with this? I'm all for expelling people who have repeated alcohol abuse problems, but you want to expell for a single instance of someone drinking a little bit more than they should of? Does the fact that being drunk can impair judgement and make you drink more (especially for newbies) add into this for you at all?

I see college as a place for intelligent people. Not stupid people.

Believe it or not, intelligent people make mistakes, especially if they have little experience. It is really easy to claim you should just toss them out, but it's completely unwarranted.

I'll give you an example--I went to boarding school for 10-12 grade and we had a strict policy about drinking, drugs, etc. However, every time someone violated the rules, they were given a review and no rules were set in stone. If someone was just getting a little tipsy on a friday night, they got probation. A kid who got caught smashed out of his mind and needed a stomach pump on the first Wenesday night of the year got immediately expelled. See the difference?

Everyone should at least get a second chance unless it is clear that there is no hope for them.

[The Kernel]

Fey, Frats encourage binge drinking. How can they NOT be a contributor to the problem?

Excuse me? I'm Kernel, Fey is my fiancee.

Nice black and white fallacy. So it either eliminates the problem completely or doesn't do jack? Roll your eyes back into your head.

I never said that some reform would be out of order. I just don't think that shutting down the frats would be constructive.

And that popular culture INCLUDES the Fraternities.

Sure, and you shut them down and all you will get is a functional equivalent. You want to solve the problem? Work on making colleges attractive as institutions of higher learning rather than for parties.

Your argument is like saying that because there are other sources of cocaine in the world, we shouldn't crack down on Columbia.

If you mean to solve the problem by nuking Columbia, then you would be correct.

Um, becasue all your FRIENDS joined it? Because your old man kept romanticizing about his glory days in old Sigma Chi or what ever? Because its a family tradition?

Somehow I have a hard time imagining someone who has frat friends, a father that was in a frat and a family that supports it being against organized drinking.

[Darth Servo]

I see college as a place for intelligent people. Not stupid people.

Believe it or not, intelligent people make mistakes, especially if they have little experience. It is really easy to claim you should just toss them out, but it's completely unwarranted.

I'll give you an example--I went to boarding school for 10-12 grade and we had a strict policy about drinking, drugs, etc. However, every time someone violated the rules, they were given a review and no rules were set in stone. If someone was just getting a little tipsy on a friday night, they got probation. A kid who got caught smashed out of his mind and needed a stomach pump on the first Wenesday night of the year got immediately expelled. See the difference?

Everyone should at least get a second chance unless it is clear that there is no hope for them.

Yes, and I already outlined three ways of telling HOW MUCH someone had drunk.

[The Kernel]

Yes, and I already outlined three ways of telling HOW MUCH someone had drunk.

And I already told you that those shouldn't be the sole factors making a determination. A students commitment to school, determination not to become a chronic binge drinker and past academic record must be considered.

[Darth Servo]

Yes, and I already outlined three ways of telling HOW MUCH someone had drunk.

And I already told you that those shouldn't be the sole factors making a determination. A students commitment to school, determination not to become a chronic binge drinker and past academic record must be considered.

And your reasons were strawmen. Trying to compare binge drinking to "drinking a little more than they should have"?

[Rogue 9]

Similarly for the record, I'm not saying to expel fraternity members either. I'm saying to punish Harrison Yonts, the individuals responsible for giving him alcohol as a minor, and to disband the fraternity but not further punish it's members since it has twice this year demonstrated a complete inability to police itself as it is supposed to do.

[The Kernel]

Similarly for the record, I'm not saying to expel fraternity members either. I'm saying to punish Harrison Yonts, the individuals responsible for giving him alcohol as a minor, and to disband the fraternity but not further punish it's members since it has twice this year demonstrated a complete inability to police itself as it is supposed to do.

Agreed on the first two points, although I'd have to see the rest of the history of this particular frat to make a determination about the third point. Really it would depend on how comfortable I was as Dean with the leadership of the particular frat and their willingness to change.

And for the record, I'm all for cracking down on hazing rituals and (more importantly) promoting alcohol awareness among freshman. The cast majority of deaths from alcohol occur with freshman who don't have the experience neccessary to engage in responsible drinking.

[Darth Servo]

Fey, Frats encourage binge drinking. How can they NOT be a contributor to the problem?

Excuse me? I'm Kernel, Fey is my fiancee.

Sorry. Brain fart. Care to answer the question now?

I never said that some reform would be out of order. I just don't think that shutting down the frats would be constructive.

Maybe I missed something but who ever said shut down all the frats as opposed to the known alcohol abuse ones like the one in this case?

Sure, and you shut them down and all you will get is a functional equivalent. You want to solve the problem? Work on making colleges attractive as institutions of higher learning rather than for parties.

And one way to do that is get the party frats OFF CAMPUS--NOT associate them with the university.

If you mean to solve the problem by nuking Columbia, then you would be correct.

WTF? You think we want to KILL binge drinking frat members?

Somehow I have a hard time imagining someone who has frat friends, a father that was in a frat and a family that supports it being against organized drinking.

There you go again with your oversimplified argument that "organized drinking" constitutes binge drinking.

Besides, your lack of imagination is not an argument.

[The Kernel]

And your reasons were strawmen. Trying to compare binge drinking to "drinking a little more than they should have"?

Actually it isn't the amount of alcohol consumed in one sitting that makes a person an alcoholic. You can have people that are caught binge drinking that aren't a risk for future episodes and those that are chronic binge drinkers. The importance is reconizing the distinction between the two which is the point I was making.

[The Kernel]

Sorry. Brain fart. Care to answer the question now?

They aren't part of the cause, merely a venue for those that choose to binge drink.

Maybe I missed something but who ever said shut down all the frats as opposed to the known alcohol abuse ones like the one in this case?

Mike was suggesting it as a sort of "nuclear option" along with expelling all students caught binge drinking.

And one way to do that is get the party frats OFF CAMPUS--NOT associate them with the university.

*sigh* I suppose I don't really care if the fraternities are on campus or off campus as I doubt it would make any difference.

WTF? You think we want to KILL binge drinking frat members?

Figure of speech maybe?

There you go again with your oversimplified argument that "organized drinking" constitutes binge drinking.

I suppose it doesn't necessarily, but in college? Are you kidding?

[Darth Servo]

So you admit they DO contribute to the problem?

[The Kernel]

So you admit they DO contribute to the problem?

Of course they contribute, they just aren't the cause. And furthermore, there are plenty of ways to fix the situation without outright banning of the fraternities from doing any University affiliations. Hell, why not run a "clean" Fraternity program or make a deal with the school to eliminate hazing rituals and necessitate alcohol awareness classes in exchange for school support? Better to work within the system thus not encouraging a backlash that can lead to a solution that is worse than the original problem.

[felineki]

Technically most schools already have a zero tollerance policy for underage drinking, but very seldom are such rules enforced. Know why? Because they'd have to expel half the student body in most cases.

Well, then they should do so. Would certainly make it easier for me to get into a college if they were all half empty.

[Darth Wong]

This isn't the Prohibition argument. We're not talking about encouraging criminal activity by banning it in courts of law. The university can freely act to do whatever they feel is necessary to discourage binge drinking and dissociate it from the university without the kind of negative consequences that were associated with Prohibition, so the "they will do it anyway" argument doesn't fly. Expel any students caught binge drinking, and ban fraternities and any other groups encouraging binge drinking from associating themselves with the university in any way.

Yeah, that's awfully realistic.

Why not?

Technically most schools already have a zero tollerance policy for underage drinking, but very seldom are such rules enforced. Know why? Because they'd have to expel half the student body in most cases.

Got any evidence to support your claim that half the student body in a typical university is composed of binge drinkers?

The vast majority of colleges have been looking the other way for years, how exactly do you realistically expect schools to take on such draconian practices which will do little besides reduce the numbers of people willing to apply?

The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.

And to anticipate your next move, I submit that kids that are caught binge drinking are not necessarily negative contributors to the student body, particularly if they aren't repeat offenders.

Yes they are.

Your solution solves nothing except to lower attendence.

And why do you believe that maximizing attendance is the goal? You know what else lowers attendance? Tough entrance requirements. Let's lower those too!

[HemlockGrey]

The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.

That's not necessarily true. I know a number of college students who party frequently and are excellent students.