[ryan8723] Rat bastard frat boy hits and kills grad student

[HemlockGrey]

Ghetto Edit: In fact, are there any kind of statistics showing a correlation between how frequently students party in university and their grades? I'd be interested in seeing them, just for their own sake.

[Darth Wong]

The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.

That's not necessarily true. I know a number of college students who party frequently and are excellent students.

And would they have refused to go to university if binge drinking was not allowed?

[HemlockGrey]

And would they have refused to go to university if binge drinking was not allowed?

Given a choice between two similar colleges, virtually all of them would have picked the wet campus over the dry campus, which is why it is unrealistic to expect colleges to ban drinking and expel students who do so. Lower attendence standards increase attendence at the cost of reputation and prestige, which are crucial to universities; banning drinking will lower attendence without gaining anything.

[Darth Wong]

And would they have refused to go to university if binge drinking was not allowed?

Given a choice between two similar colleges, virtually all of them would have picked the wet campus over the dry campus, which is why it is unrealistic to expect colleges to ban drinking and expel students who do so.

Don't change the subject, kiddo. Binge drinking, not drinking in its entirety. And contrary to what "The Kernel" says, it's really not hard to define an objective standard for binge drinking. You can set a number of drinks, or a blood alcohol limit, etc.

Lower attendence standards increase attendence at the cost of reputation and prestige, which are crucial to universities; banning drinking will lower attendence without gaining anything.

Perhaps not in a culture where universities are known as much for partying and sports as for academics. In a culture where universities were graded strictly for academic standards, I would imagine that "party universities" would lose some of their prestige for allowing binge drinking.

In short, the underlying problem is cultural: society does not frown enough upon drunken morons.

[The Kernel]

Why not?

Because Universities aren't going to do something that discourages such a large amount of potential students.

Got any evidence to support your claim that half the student body in a typical university is composed of binge drinkers?

Actually yes. According to the Harvard School of Public Health College Alcohol Study, 48.6% of students engage in "heavy" drinking. And that's only for the ones NOT in a fraternity. And before you use the greater frat statistic against me, bear in mind that I conceed that frats attract heavy drinkers, but that doesn't mean they create them.

The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.

Now it is your turn to provide evidence.

Yes they are.

Once again, evidence?

And why do you believe that maximizing attendance is the goal? You know what else lowers attendance? Tough entrance requirements. Let's lower those too!

I knew you'd pull out this argument, but binge drinking during college is not necessarily an indication of a poor student, especially when you are talking about a single offense.

The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.

That's not necessarily true. I know a number of college students who party frequently and are excellent students.

And would they have refused to go to university if binge drinking was not allowed?

Irrelevent since they would always have the option of going to a school where they could get away with binge drinking.

[The Kernel]

Don't change the subject, kiddo. Binge drinking, not drinking in its entirety. And contrary to what "The Kernel" says, it's really not hard to define an objective standard for binge drinking. You can set a number of drinks, or a blood alcohol limit, etc.

Except that it misses the point entirely. Are you really suggesting that a person who exceedes a pre defined BAC level once (a ridiculously easy thing to do for the inexperienced drinker as drinking makes you want to drink more and not realize the consequences of doing so) is worth kicking out as oppossed to someone who toes the line hundreds of times a year?

[The Kernel]

EDIT for the above: All this policy does is to reward experienced drinkers who are more able to control themselves.

[Darth Wong]

Why not?

Because Universities aren't going to do something that discourages such a large amount of potential students.

Potential harmful students, you mean.

Got any evidence to support your claim that half the student body in a typical university is composed of binge drinkers?

Actually yes. According to the Harvard School of Public Health College Alcohol Study, 48.6% of students engage in "heavy" drinking. And that's only for the ones NOT in a fraternity. And before you use the greater frat statistic against me, bear in mind that I conceed that frats attract heavy drinkers, but that doesn't mean they create them.

Ahem. From your own link:

Consequences of Fraternity and Sorority Alcohol Consumption
Heavy and frequent drinking has a damaging impact on health, safety, and the academic experience, not only for heavy drinkers themselves but also for the entire campus and surrounding community. Because they drink more than other students, fraternity and sorority members are also more likely to suffer alcohol-related consequences.

The Core Institute reported that approximately 50 percent of students living in a fraternity or sorority house performed poorly on a test or project, versus about 25 percent of all students. Approximately 70 percent missed a class, versus about 33 percent of all students. In addition, roughly 59 percent had an argument or fight, compared with 35 percent of all students.3

The leaders of fraternities and sororities suffer even greater consequences than other members. One study found that 26.9 percent of fraternity leaders and 18.6 percent of sorority leaders had suffered an alcohol-related injury. Fully 82.4 percent of fraternity leaders and 78.7 percent of sorority leaders had had a hangover; 71.3 percent of fraternity leaders and 66.2 percent of sorority leaders became nauseated or vomited. In addition, 53.3 percent of fraternity leaders and 45.6 percent of sorority leaders reported having alcohol-related memory loss.3

High-risk drinking imposes consequences on other students as well, not just the drinkers themselves. CAS found that 83 percent of residents in a fraternity or sorority house experienced negative consequences due to other students’ drinking, such as a serious argument, assault, property damage, having to take care of a drunken student, interrupted study or sleep, an unwanted sexual advance, or sexual assault or acquaintance rape.2

The National College Women Sexual Victimization (NCWSV) study found that 20–25 percent of college women are victims of an attempted or completed rape during their college careers. In 9 out of 10 cases, the victims know the perpetrators. Other studies also suggest that high levels of rape take place at fraternity houses, particularly against sorority women.7, 8 Sorority members are more likely to be sexually victimized than the general population on campus.8

Thanks for providing the evidence to support my position.

The kind of people who go to university to party are not interested in actually learning anything.

Now it is your turn to provide evidence.

I don't have to. You did it for me. The studies you cited yourself showed that heavy drinkers are a negative contribution to the academic experience at university. The fact that your link also cites 1400 student deaths per year from alcohol-related causes is another non-trivial concern. But no, I guess you just see what you want to see, and ignore the rest, right?

<snip some more arguments denying the negative connection between binge drinking and academic harm which your own source clearly states to be valid>

Thank you for playing, come again.

[The Kernel]

Potential harmful students, you mean.

Desire to not live on a campus with draconian drinking policies does not make one a harmful student.

Thanks for providing the evidence to support my position.

You assume too much, the data does not necessarily support your conclusion. After all, I have already admitted that fraternites attract students with drinking problems, but that does not mean they create them, nor are they the primary foster of alcohol abuse in college.

I don't have to. You did it for me. The studies you cited yourself showed that heavy drinkers are a negative contribution to the academic experience at university. The fact that your link also cites 1400 student deaths per year from alcohol-related causes is another non-trivial concern. But no, I guess you just see what you want to see, and ignore the rest, right?

Of course chronic alcohol abusers contribute negatively to the academic experience. How does that support your proposal of dismissing any student for a single violation of the binge drinking policy? I don't see that data supporting that position at all.

Thank you for playing, come again.

See above. Make the connection between the data and your argument before declaring victory please.

[Darth Wong]

Potential harmful students, you mean.

Desire to not live on a campus with draconian drinking policies does not make one a harmful student.

Disallowing binge drinking is "draconian?" Why?

Thanks for providing the evidence to support my position.

You assume too much, the data does not necessarily support your conclusion. After all, I have already admitted that fraternites attract students with drinking problems, but that does not mean they create them, nor are they the primary foster of alcohol abuse in college.

Your own link says otherwise:

Do Fraternities and Sororities Attract Drinkers or Promote Drinking?
A persistent question for researchers has been whether the social environment of fraternities and sororities somehow fosters alcohol abuse or, alternatively, whether new students who are already heavy drinkers are more likely than others to want to join these societies. A number of studies indicate that both factors are involved in producing the high rates of alcohol consumption among fraternity and sorority members.4

Researchers at the University of Alabama found that members of fraternities and sororities increased their drinking more than other students after beginning college. Nearly 40 percent of fraternity members who had been low-level drinkers (defined as having three or fewer drinks in a sitting) in high school became high-level drinkers (defined as having four or more drinks in a sitting) in college. In comparison, only 17 percent of male students not in fraternities showed a similar rise in drinking from high school to college. For women, the pattern is even more pronounced. Among women who were low-level drinkers in high school, sorority members were three times more likely than non-members to become high-level drinkers in college (33 percent versus 11 percent).9

A study of new students at the University of Virginia found that those who intended to join fraternities or sororities were about twice as likely as their peers to be frequent heavy drinkers (defined as men who have five or more drinks in a row, and as women who have three or more drinks in a row, more than once in the previous two weeks). For men, nearly 70 percent of those planning to pledge a fraternity were frequent heavy drinkers, compared with just over 30 percent of those not pledging. For women, the disparity in frequent heavy drinking between those pledging and those not intending to join a sorority was about 52 percent to 23 percent.10 Other studies have found similar associations between heavy drinking and intention to join these societies.4

The 1996 CAS found that while 34 percent of non-fraternity men were heavy drinkers in high school, almost double that proportion (60 percent) of men living in fraternity houses had been heavy drinkers in high school. Among non-resident fraternity members, 44 percent were heavy drinkers in high school. For women the differences were not as stark. Among sorority members, regardless of residency, 35 percent were heavy drinkers in high school, while 28 percent of non-members were.11

The same nationwide survey found that among both fraternity and sorority residents, about 75 percent of those who were not heavy drinkers in high school became heavy drinkers in college. Among non-residents, 61 percent of fraternity members and 48 percent of sorority members who did not drink heavily in high school became heavy drinkers in college. And for students who were not involved in these organizations, 32 percent of men and 25 percent of women became heavy drinkers after beginning college.11

People who go to frats are far more likely tha non-frat residents to experience a sharp rise in drinking habits when they go to university. Frats are the primary promoter of heavy drinking on-campus.

I don't have to. You did it for me. The studies you cited yourself showed that heavy drinkers are a negative contribution to the academic experience at university. The fact that your link also cites 1400 student deaths per year from alcohol-related causes is another non-trivial concern. But no, I guess you just see what you want to see, and ignore the rest, right?

Of course chronic alcohol abusers contribute negatively to the academic experience. How does that support your proposal of dismissing any student for a single violation of the binge drinking policy? I don't see that data supporting that position at all.

If you can't keep yourself from binge drinking even if you know the consequences, you have a problem.

Thank you for playing, come again.

See above. Make the connection between the data and your argument before declaring victory please.

If you honestly can't understand how someone who knowingly risks expelment in order to have that oh-so-important binge drinking session obviously has poor judgment, you are beyond help.

[Darth Wong]

More facts for your perusal:

Effects of college binge drinking:
http://www.cspinet.org/booze/collfact1.htm

College drinking may be even more harmful than previously thought:
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/college/ ... 050321.htm

Increasing numbers of college students meet requirements for clinical diagnosis of alcoholism:
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/college/ ... 020614.htm

Oh no, this isn't a problem at all, is it?

[Jalinth]

More facts for your perusal:

Oh no, this isn't a problem at all, is it?

The sad thing is that it is the prohibition on drinking (basically making all drinking illegal by the majority of university students) that causes a significant amount of harm. If people grew up able to drink with their parents (glass of wine - European style), it would help to remove the "romanticism" that goes with suddenly being able to drink (either because you just turned 19 or 21 or you now have a ready source of illict booze) that going to university allows. Growing up, having ready access to Hull (drinking age was effectively being able to see over the bar) pretty much eliminated much of the romanticism for me (way too easy and learned that cheap beer tasted like crap) . Also, being around the Francophones helped since drinking (wine mostly) was such an ordinary thing for them that it toned down the whole "illict pleasure" bit. Drinking a glass of wine with your parents or your friends' parents - rebellion at it's best.

As far as binge drinking, I'm of the view that one incident brings probation and counciling as long as you do no harm except to yourself (you get one mistake), second time means good bye. Same with a club (whether a frat or anything else). You get one screw-up every 5 years (someone forgets to check IDs, whatever) as long as no one is hurt - someone hurt means goodbye. 2nd failure means kiss your club goodbye - banned from campus, no advertising, no references on campus, no nothing. Reapply in a generation and we'll talk.

[Rogue 9]

Our campus is technically dry; the frat houses are just off campus. However, in practice you have to go wave a case of beer in the RA's face to get busted; they don't want to catch you. My roommate has Jack Daniels hard lemonade in a cooler right behind where I'm currently sitting.

[Rogue 9]

Lambda Chi Alpha has been suspended.

[The Dark]

Lambda Chi Alpha has been suspended.

Huh. Our Lambda Chi's were actually a decent bunch. It was the Sigs and SAEs that you had to look out for where I was.

Oh, and Kernel? If dry campuses can't draw students, why is it that a dry campus in the same city as a larger, less expensive university, plus a second cheaper dry campus, plus a large moderately rated community college, is so in demand that it turns away one quarter of applicants? (Which, by the way, is lower than the acceptance rate at the cheaper school). And, to make things tougher on your theory, this college is in a small town midway in between two large cities with highly rated, less expensive, wet universities. The theory that a dry campus can't draw students is nothing less than bullshit.

[ryan8723]

Also even before I joined my fraternity, I was binge drinking and going out to bars all the time.

So you've been a moron for a long time then.

I'm in college and I like to have fun and go out. I don't really see what the problem is with getting wasted since I don't really do anything really stupid that would ever put anyone else in harms' reach. Honestly, why the fuck do you care whether or not someone drinks strictly to get drunk, it's not like it's hurting you in any way.

[ryan8723]

Lambda Chi Alpha has been suspended.

Huh. Our Lambda Chi's were actually a decent bunch. It was the Sigs and SAEs that you had to look out for where I was.

Oh, and Kernel? If dry campuses can't draw students, why is it that a dry campus in the same city as a larger, less expensive university, plus a second cheaper dry campus, plus a large moderately rated community college, is so in demand that it turns away one quarter of applicants? (Which, by the way, is lower than the acceptance rate at the cheaper school). And, to make things tougher on your theory, this college is in a small town midway in between two large cities with highly rated, less expensive, wet universities. The theory that a dry campus can't draw students is nothing less than bullshit.

I think you misunderstand him, he was saying that all things being equal the overwhelming majority of people would choose the wet campus over the dry campus.

[ryan8723]

At my university, Texas A&M, the vast majority of people abhor the greek system and thus fraternities account for about 3% of male students and sororities account for about 6% of female students, yet there is a bar in our bar district that serves more alcohol per square foot than any other bar in the world (The Dixie Chicken). I would venture to say that at least 60% (it's probably closer to 75%) of my universities population of 45,000 people engage in binge drinking on a regular basis.

As I said before, the only thing that really separates fraternities and sororities from the regular students is that fraternities and sororities have more organized parties. Here at A&M, that's really about the only difference between the two. Maybe at other schools, the greek system has a large impact upon the school, but here there is such a small greek population that you can basically ignore it with regards to statistics.

I honestly cannot think of a single person off the top of my head that I know who has not ever engaged in binge drinking while in college. You may think that's sad, I think it's merely an indication of the fact that you are out of touch with the typical US college student.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I remember college, I still like to tell people about my friend Ben who was expelled for having a home brewing kit in his dorm. The Fratboy who was caught with a plant only got a slap on hte wrist....

yes they expelled a 22 year old medical student for owning a perfectly legal (for a person his age) beer kask. the otherone a frat boy owned a federally illegal canibus sativa....

[Spyder]

It seems as though frats are the side effect of the results from the way higher educated "social elite" interact.

Just thinking about this, there are a number of ongoing problems that people continue to mention in the US, frats being one of them. I am wondering if this is all connected with what we've seen in political cronyism and other issues that seem to surround people of influence.

If there is then maybe it's treatable, then you could probably form a model that could be applied to other nations as well. Frats could actually prove to be a useful test case.

[The Yosemite Bear]

well in the US frats mean that if your parents have money you can do what every you want for 4-9 years kill people, rape, burn down buildings, and we will give you a degree in buisiness management/law which will mean nothing, except you will have all those good old boys to help and protect you all the way till you become president of the united states.

[Darth Wong]

Also even before I joined my fraternity, I was binge drinking and going out to bars all the time.

So you've been a moron for a long time then.

I'm in college and I like to have fun and go out.

An act which requires binge drinking in your mind?

I don't really see what the problem is with getting wasted since I don't really do anything really stupid that would ever put anyone else in harms' reach.

Among other problems, you are risking becoming an alcoholic. Where do you think alcoholics come from? Do you think they come from people who have something terrible happen in their lives and then crawl into a bottle, the way they do in the movies? No, they come from people who start by drinking because they think it's the way to PAR-TAY!!!!!! It's like saying that you can do cocaine now and then and it's harmless.

Honestly, why the fuck do you care whether or not someone drinks strictly to get drunk, it's not like it's hurting you in any way.

Who said I care? It doesn't affect me that you're a moron, I'm simply pointing out a fact.

[Wyrm]

Honestly, why the fuck do you care whether or not someone drinks strictly to get drunk, it's not like it's hurting you in any way.

Not hurting others in any way?

Other than the fact that we have enough problems with drunk drivers who don't know that they're drunk out on the road, let alone people who drive knowing that they've just spent the night drinking for the express purpose of getting drunk? Sure, YOU might not have done it, but an estimated 2 million college students each year drive drunk, and 3 million college students each year ride with another student who drives drunk. Further, 600,000 students are assalted each year by another student who was drinking. An estimated 400,000 students a year have unprotected sex while drinking. Seventy thousand are victims of date rape, and more than 100,000 say they were too drunk to know whether the sex they had was consensual.

See, it's not the drinking itself that matters, it's what you do under the influence.

Thank you for playing, ryan.

[Darth Wong]

Oh, and Kernel? If dry campuses can't draw students, why is it that a dry campus in the same city as a larger, less expensive university, plus a second cheaper dry campus, plus a large moderately rated community college, is so in demand that it turns away one quarter of applicants? (Which, by the way, is lower than the acceptance rate at the cheaper school). And, to make things tougher on your theory, this college is in a small town midway in between two large cities with highly rated, less expensive, wet universities. The theory that a dry campus can't draw students is nothing less than bullshit.

Indeed, I think the Kernel either deliberately or negligently ignored two factors:

1) Students who actually take the academic function of university seriously. I know it's a shocking idea that some students go to university to learn, but there you have it.

2) The influence of parents. If I, as a parent, am paying for the goddamned tuition, you can bet I want some input as to where my kid goes, and if I have a choice between a dry university and one where people are drinking like fish, I'll send him to the dry university. So unless all students have tens of thousands of dollars spilling out of their pockets and can pay all of their own tuition and living expenses, you can bet your ass that "I wanna PAR-TAY!!!!" is not actually a huge factor in college selection because the parents don't give a shit about that, and may even actively discourage it. I know I would.

[The Kernel]

Oh, and Kernel? If dry campuses can't draw students, why is it that a dry campus in the same city as a larger, less expensive university, plus a second cheaper dry campus, plus a large moderately rated community college, is so in demand that it turns away one quarter of applicants? (Which, by the way, is lower than the acceptance rate at the cheaper school). And, to make things tougher on your theory, this college is in a small town midway in between two large cities with highly rated, less expensive, wet universities. The theory that a dry campus can't draw students is nothing less than bullshit.

Stawman, I never said dry campuses can't attract students.

Indeed, I think the Kernel either deliberately or negligently ignored two factors:

1) Students who actually take the academic function of university seriously. I know it's a shocking idea that some students go to university to learn, but there you have it.

There is sufficient time in a day for one to learn AND engage in social activities, some of which can lead too far.

You are suggesting an ironclad rule that every student that achieves over a certain BAC at a single point during the year is suddenly a drain on the academic community. If that's true, then why do you object to my idea of using academic history as a criteria for which to decide disciplinary action? Sounds like all you are doing is grinding a vendetta against students that drink their way through school for whatever reason.

2) The influence of parents. If I, as a parent, am paying for the goddamned tuition, you can bet I want some input as to where my kid goes, and if I have a choice between a dry university and one where people are drinking like fish, I'll send him to the dry university. So unless all students have tens of thousands of dollars spilling out of their pockets and can pay all of their own tuition and living expenses, you can bet your ass that "I wanna PAR-TAY!!!!" is not actually a huge factor in college selection because the parents don't give a shit about that, and may even actively discourage it. I know I would.

I seriously doubt that parents are going to put having a dry campus on the priority list when they are involved in picking a college. Mine never even asked about it and they were overwhelmingly concerned about other factors. Know why? Because they assume that if I am old enough to go off to college, I am old enough to make responsible decisions.