Zerg vs. Imperial Army

[lgot]

On the contrary, I stated that they are not normal flame but some sort of concussive plasma. The name Firebat, and Peridition strongly suggest heat-based weaponry, however the only reason firebats came into this argument was your claim that the damage from them meant Zerg could not survive lava. Since you now claim no firebat flame damage, there is no possible contradiction to Zerg energy immunity. Well and good.

Blizzard clearly states it is Concussive attack, so it does give heat damage, so you could not use it in your logic to prove all other unities have heat immunity because they showed igual resistense to Firebats attacks.
yes, its odd, because they say "burn!burn!burn!".
Blizzard descriptions are very full in imaginative terms. Like the Defiler , they say he have many virus-like attacks but he used spores like a fungus instead. ^^
Also the logic of the nuke leaving the radiation to mariners. I does not leave radiation for anything, zergs, humans, protoss, the creatures wandering, etc. I guess this is also some blizzard hardness to find description and gaming together.

I also used Blizzard's statments here and there. You tried to use a LACK of statements to produce a false dichotomy, because Blizzard did not say "They can burrow into Lava." you have tried to show that the visuals are wrong, visuals win over dialogue if there's a chance of contradiction, which there isn't since you have no dialogue actually saying they CAN'T do what I've shown they do. Going into space unharmed means they are immune to suffocation, the amount of radiation one would be exposed to in space, the heat of direct sunlight in space, and the cold of solid shadow in space (Just on the Moon that means roughly 250C to -203C). Being in space and surviving comfortably actually implies a heck of a lot of immunities.

I never used Blizzard's quote to that. And I accepted your image, or dont you forget it ?
My point about blizzard is : they made descriptions of special abilities of everyone, they wasted they time for it. The visuals do not show any SC defense to heat weapons also. We assume - because I have also, you forget my point is that would be not enough to be full fire/heat imunity like you pointed out in the first , long ago post, not they have no different adapatations of the humans. So, I feel hard to already assume it, since we found no evidence of this in the blizzard descriptions and SC visuals but the burrowing - which is limited to the little cracks.
they of course have adaptations to stand up with human technology which makes their armor good, and yeah, they can live in the space. So a average zerg is more resistent than a human. But like in the game, this resistense does not stop them being killed I do not think they will be stoped in that sittuation.
I consider this argument is being rather circular. We got stoped here, as i Said. I am tired. Can we just move to a new one and forget this. I can accept Zergs show more heat resistense than a human but I not sure if that will gave them fully fire immunity ? Is that little difference between us enough to move to a new matter ?
I am rather moving to your otherquestion

Last of all consider the Dark Swarm. This Zerg effect causes a massive cloud of living parasites for form a field in which all directed fire weapon attacks are warped and twisted off path, making them useless as aim is for crap. Inside a Dark Swarm only Melee combat is possible. In Melee who would you vote for, the Stormies and At-Sts or the Zerglings and Ultralisks?

Of course, let me point out, that I think if a massive swarm of zerglings caught a group of individuals, personal armor wont be enough, unless protect all the body and Zergs will do damage. And of course this sittuation the Zerglings will won.
I dont know if they can break a At-St armor, someone else would now, so I have no opnion about who would won there.
But if you ask me if dark swarm will be effective to a attack ?
I dunno. In the game We usually can defend well - not moving targets, but stationary like a base - against this, taking down the defiler before he gets in the range (This is possible in the game). I suppose the Empire can do the same. I doubt the Federation could do the same. But then , you would need this to hurt then with swarms because personal defense of Federation is ridiculous.

[Master of Ossus]

Powerful zerg could destroy or disable AT-STs. No Zerg weapons would be able to damage AT-AT's.

BTW, personal armor on stormtroopers does not offer one hundred percent protection. I have never claimed that it does. What it DOES do is allow the troopers to take otherwise fatal hits without being significantly impaired. Their armor grants them tremendous staying power during conflicts. It would protect them almost completely from hydralisks and zerglings, and it would offer excellent protection against most other Zerg weapons. Their armor would require (on average) a hydralisk or zergling to either hit a stormtrooper several times in order to get a lucky hit, or to carefully place their strikes. This would allow stormtroopers to get off several fatal hits for each one they received, or force the zerg to close to extreme range where they would be vulnerable to thermal detonators. In either case, the zerg would lose IMMENSE numbers for each stormtrooper they would kill. The zerg are the masters with numbers, but the Empire's resources are greater still. The zerg would have no chance.

[lgot]

The zerg are the masters with numbers, but the Empire's resources are greater still. The zerg would have no chance

I do not think Moonstone suggest or think they could defeat the whole Empire but is only making exercise for the scenario of one ground battle, when all the Empire's resourses would not be used yet.
When that happens, i am sure not one can claim zergs can stand against Empire.

[Master of Ossus]

But, would they even stand a chance in a small battle, over a single planet? I do not think they could. They are too badly outgunned, man for zerg, and their firepower is not great enough to stop Imperial war machines.

[lgot]

oh, I think not also. But I think is the possibility for a big number of damage caused by really big swarms.

[Master of Ossus]

oh, I think not also. But I think is the possibility for a big number of damage caused by really big swarms.

I never claimed that the Empire would take no casualties! Of course they would take casualties, but I don't think they would lose the battle. Even a few capital ships' worth of stormtroopers and heavy weapons would be enough to occuppy a zerg planet, and if they were just trying to wipe out the infestation, a BDZ would be more than enough.

[Beowulf]

For what it's worth, the ghost is quite apparently not wearing ufll coverage body armor, as evidenced by the fact that you can see Kerrigan face in the unit picture, and in the cinematics, and in the cinematic movie about the terrans attempting to retake the science vessel, where the ghost is wearing a wear headset sort of thing, that gives him enhanced vision, but does not provide any protection whatsoever.

[Master of Ossus]

For what it's worth, the ghost is quite apparently not wearing ufll coverage body armor, as evidenced by the fact that you can see Kerrigan face in the unit picture, and in the cinematics, and in the cinematic movie about the terrans attempting to retake the science vessel, where the ghost is wearing a wear headset sort of thing, that gives him enhanced vision, but does not provide any protection whatsoever.

So protection from environmental hazards is clearly not that important in SC, in spite of what people keep claiming. Also, one would think that a hydralisk or a zergling would be able to hit a specific area of someone's body, but that is apparently not possible. This only reiterates the point that Imperial forces would be able to easily defeat zerg ground forces, though not without casualties.

[Moonstone Spider]

Of course, let me point out, that I think if a massive swarm of zerglings caught a group of individuals, personal armor wont be enough, unless protect all the body and Zergs will do damage. And of course this sittuation the Zerglings will won.
I dont know if they can break a At-St armor, someone else would now, so I have no opnion about who would won there.
But if you ask me if dark swarm will be effective to a attack ?
I dunno. In the game We usually can defend well - not moving targets, but stationary like a base - against this, taking down the defiler before he gets in the range (This is possible in the game). I suppose the Empire can do the same. I doubt the Federation could do the same. But then , you would need this to hurt then with swarms because personal defense of Federation is ridiculous.

The Zerg have unbreakable monomolecular blades on the Ultralisk, I suspect that will inflict rather severe damage even on an AT-AT, probably ripping it's legs up and causing it to fall. Zerglings could also swarm up the legs and attack the underbelly. Dark Swarm is possible to beat by killing the defiler, but only if your oppnenet is a Bonehead and walks the Defiler into range. Usually you simply Dswarm, move the Defiler into position under the protection of the Swarm, and Dswarm again. Defilers can simply eat Zerglings if they run low on energy while trying to perform more Dark Swarms.

So protection from environmental hazards is clearly not that important in SC, in spite of what people keep claiming. Also, one would think that a hydralisk or a zergling would be able to hit a specific area of someone's body, but that is apparently not possible. This only reiterates the point that Imperial forces would be able to easily defeat zerg ground forces, though not without casualties.

In several Cutscenes we do sometimes see unarmored humans, and they tend to die in a single hit from anything from a Zergling to a Dragoon. It's clear these are not regular troopers and they are quite weak. Even the marine who foolishly opened his facemask was killed instantly. This merely proves how important armor is in SC, anybody without dies at once. In the Cutscenes the Hydralisk manages to nail a marine in the face perfectly where his armor provides no protection and a Zergling or Hydralisk one rips an Marine apart Melee style in the opening to Brood Wars. In-game they can't aim but it's common in the cutscenes showing they do have such abilities.

For what it's worth, the ghost is quite apparently not wearing ufll coverage body armor, as evidenced by the fact that you can see Kerrigan face in the unit picture, and in the cinematics, and in the cinematic movie about the terrans attempting to retake the science vessel, where the ghost is wearing a wear headset sort of thing, that gives him enhanced vision, but does not provide any protection whatsoever.

Kerrigan does show her face but you can also See Raynor's face and yet we know he's wearing Marine armor, and we can see a fleet admiral's face even though he's inside a Battlecruiser! We can also see the faces of Firebats and Marines who are in armor. Clearly the fact that Kerrigan's face is visible merely proves she is no normal ghost (as if that wasn't obvious alread) rather than proving she is unarmored.

I never claimed that the Empire would take no casualties! Of course they would take casualties, but I don't think they would lose the battle. Even a few capital ships' worth of stormtroopers and heavy weapons would be enough to occuppy a zerg planet, and if they were just trying to wipe out the infestation, a BDZ would be more than enough.

The Protoss tried to BDZ the Zerg and failed, the Zerg weren't even fighting back and they still multiplied faster than fleets of ships could take down worlds. After four months of massive battles there were billions of Zerg involved in Attacking Aiur alone. The Zerg numbers are massive.

But, would they even stand a chance in a small battle, over a single planet? I do not think they could. They are too badly outgunned, man for zerg, and their firepower is not great enough to stop Imperial war machines.

As I've spent pages showing, they aren't outgunned at all. Their attacks are likely to be one-hit-kills vs. Stormies while Stormtroopers will require a massive concentration of fire even to kill a Zergling. The AT-ATs, AT-STs, and such are the only things that will be useful against Zerg, and they will inflict Casualties, but there never seem to be the thousands of AT-ATs on one planet that would be required to stop a Zerg onslaught.

I do not think Moonstone suggest or think they could defeat the whole Empire but is only making exercise for the scenario of one ground battle, when all the Empire's resourses would not be used yet.
When that happens, i am sure not one can claim zergs can stand against Empire.

Yes, I've been looking at it from the perspective of a single battle. However judging from the Manual description the Zerg control over half a Galaxy's worth of resources and they have the ability to warp from world to world using Wormholes at extreme speed. The Empire would probably take out the Zerg in the end but it would require a massive mobilization of their troops and they'd lose most of their standing army doing it unless they had something like Spaarti cylinders and cloning facilities. The Zerg are the Borg done right, vast numbers, assimilation at the Genetic Level, psychic powers, and vast numbers.

Posted: Sat Jul 27, 2002 11:54 pm Post subject:

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Powerful zerg could destroy or disable AT-STs. No Zerg weapons would be able to damage AT-AT's.

BTW, personal armor on stormtroopers does not offer one hundred percent protection. I have never claimed that it does. What it DOES do is allow the troopers to take otherwise fatal hits without being significantly impaired. Their armor grants them tremendous staying power during conflicts. It would protect them almost completely from hydralisks and zerglings, and it would offer excellent protection against most other Zerg weapons. Their armor would require (on average) a hydralisk or zergling to either hit a stormtrooper several times in order to get a lucky hit, or to carefully place their strikes. This would allow stormtroopers to get off several fatal hits for each one they received, or force the zerg to close to extreme range where they would be vulnerable to thermal detonators. In either case, the zerg would lose IMMENSE numbers for each stormtrooper they would kill. The zerg are the masters with numbers, but the Empire's resources are greater still. The zerg would have no chance.

For some reason you still have it backwards, the Stormies would require immense numbers of hits do handle even a Zergling while a Hydralisk spine would go right through the body stocking (shotgun-style volley of many spines means a hit there is almost certain anyway) and they can probably cut through stormtrooper armor anywway given their 2-inch neosteel rating. The Empire would lose Immense numbers of Stormtroopers for every Zerg killed. Thermal Detonators and AT-ST or better weapons would be one hit kills but it's very hard to use grenades against Melee fighters swarming all over you, Dark Swarm would allow the Zerg to force a point-blank combat range where they would really shine, and they can climb up AT-STs and AT-ATs to attack any vulnerable point on them even if an Ultralisk can't rip their legs off. If AT-ATs really got to be a problem there's always Broodling which is a one-hit kill against even them.

[lgot]

The Zerg have unbreakable monomolecular blades on the Ultralisk, I suspect that will inflict rather severe damage even on an AT-AT, probably ripping it's legs up and causing it to fall. Zerglings could also swarm up the legs and attack the underbelly. Dark Swarm is possible to beat by killing the defiler, but only if your oppnenet is a Bonehead and walks the Defiler into range. Usually you simply Dswarm, move the Defiler into position under the protection of the Swarm, and Dswarm again. Defilers can simply eat Zerglings if they run low on energy while trying to perform more Dark Swarms.

Like i Said about weapons, I have no idea if they can put down their armor.
But about the defiler, I just command my defense to shot the defiler, not the zerglings. That would work ok and stop him. I am telling it with a ideal defense, not just like, 2,3 bunks and one tank with all flank open (some maps are just impossible to work this way).

Yes, I've been looking at it from the perspective of a single battle. However judging from the Manual description the Zerg control over half a Galaxy's worth of resources and they have the ability to warp from world to world using Wormholes at extreme speed. The Empire would probably take out the Zerg in the end but it would require a massive mobilization of their troops and they'd lose most of their standing army doing it unless they had something like Spaarti cylinders and cloning facilities. The Zerg are the Borg done right, vast numbers, assimilation at the Genetic Level, psychic powers, and vast numbers.

Nah, to stop zerglings with ISD ? DBZ the homeworld where they are controled. The game showed that without a Overmind or Kerrigan behind then, they are dangerous beast but not able to do all the domination.
Also, Basead on Kerrigan's history of being dominated by overminds without much chance, probally she would end up joining up the Empire. Actually, She would be a hell of Sith Lord, dont you think ?

For some reason you still have it backwards, the Stormies would require immense numbers of hits do handle even a Zergling while a Hydralisk spine would go right through the body stocking (shotgun-style volley of many spines means a hit there is almost certain anyway) and they can probably cut through stormtrooper armor anywway given their 2-inch neosteel rating. The Empire would lose Immense numbers of Stormtroopers for every Zerg killed. Thermal Detonators and AT-ST or better weapons would be one hit kills but it's very hard to use grenades against Melee fighters swarming all over you, Dark Swarm would allow the Zerg to force a point-blank combat range where they would really shine, and they can climb up AT-STs and AT-ATs to attack any vulnerable point on them even if an Ultralisk can't rip their legs off. If AT-ATs really got to be a problem there's always Broodling which is a one-hit kill against even them.

Perhaps the problem is that humans are able to kill lots of zergs without the one-hit-death. Or mariners do not die with their armor just in one shot. I have no reasons to think Empire use a inferior armor.
But the good thing about zerglings is something that does not happen in the game: They trample you. Even if your armor hold damage, you are out of action because no human can stand up a huge number of beasts jumping over you. That is why, I think how good armor of troopers does not matter, because they will have a lot of problem to aim and shoot everytime.

[Master of Ossus]

Are you saying that the Ultralisk's "unbreakable, monomolecular blades" have the yield of thermonuclear blasts? In order to take out an AT-AT, they would have to. Unarmored humans appear to be very weak, but they also demonstrate that much of the time there is no need for environmental protection. We have heard from a multitude of people that there is. BTW, how do you know that the Marine's mask would have stopped the hydralisk's spine? It seemed to go straight through the BACK of his armored suit. That is not indicative of an extremely powerful weapon. The Protoss do not have the ability to launch a "proper" BDZ, and their shields are disabled on many structures by mere nuclear weapons. Note that an UNSHIELDED SW vehicle like an AT-AT could easily withstand such a blast. ISD's can also do so with their shields down. This indicates that the Protoss have power sources vastly inferior to SW capital ships (or, at least, that their shields are worse).

The zergling attacks would not be one-hit kills. I have NO idea how you come to that conclusion. Just because 2 inches of neosteel cannot stand up to a hydralisk spine does not mean that Stormtrooper armor cannot. Are you telling me that the hydralisk's weapon has vastly more KE than the spear we talked about earlier? The Empire would not lose massive numbers of stormtroopers to a Zerg. Note that the amount of momentum on the truck is actually fairly small next to that of the spear, and that the spear's energy is concentrated into a single point, whereas the impact of the truck is spread out over a more considerable area. Since zerglings and hydralisks cannot conduct "one-hit-kills" on each other, we should be able to conclude that their hides are not as resistance to projectiles as stormtrooper armor. There are no "vulnerable" parts of an AT-AT. The entire thing is protected with a small layer of armor, though admittedly parts of the armor are considerably weaker than others. I cannot understand why I should have to explain this to you. Are you saying that an Ultralisk does more damage in one hit than a thermonuclear warhead? That would be the only way to knock down an AT-AT, as you say. And please explain to me how Broodlings would affect an AT-AT. You have no proof (or, even evidence, other than your half-witted assertion that SC technology is superior to SW tech) that a Broodling would be able to punch through an AT-AT. Your statements basically say that because SC technology is superior to SW technology, we should conclude that the Zerg would overrun Imperials. This is not true. SW technology is actually vastly in excess of SC technology, and the Zerg would be of little threat to the Empire if they have such difficulty overrunning such pipsqueek powers as Aiur and the Confederates.

[Smiling Bandit]

I also point out that Terran troops have laughably pathetic ranges. They can't hit anything more than ten body lengths away from them, excepting the tanks. The Empire can hit them from 200 fet accurately with just the hand blasters.

http://moonstone.netfirms.com/images/mechas1.gif

Very nice, but since a human civvie wearing plain-jane clothing can do the same, who cares?

[Master of Ossus]

I also point out that Terran troops have laughably pathetic ranges. They can't hit anything more than ten body lengths away from them, excepting the tanks. The Empire can hit them from 200 fet accurately with just the hand blasters.

http://moonstone.netfirms.com/images/mechas1.gif

Very nice, but since a human civvie wearing plain-jane clothing can do the same, who cares?

Or from kilometers away with an AT-AT, or light artillery pieces. Please note the effective range on the Medium repeating blaster cannon, and the fact that it is primarily an anti-personnel weapon.