Palpatine Moaning In Hell?

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-11-08 04:04am

I have a rather stupid question (although one of my mentors always said no question was stupid if it was only asked once):

Is the moaning heard at the beginning of the victory celebration music that John Williams composed for the special edition of ROTJ supposed to signify Palpatine being tormented down below? Or was it just purely part of the atmospherics of the scene? I'd be thankful for any insight on this admittedly bizarre question.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-08 04:47am

That's people shouting "Freedom" and "The Emperor's dead!"

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2005-11-08 04:53am

Not the shouts you hear on Coruscant, that's not what I'm referring to.

If you listen to the soundtrack, to the recording of Victory Celebration & End Titles, you'll notice a distinct moaning in the first 30 seconds. I'm familiar with the shouting in some foreign tongue on Coruscant, and so that's not what I'm curious about, though of course that would give Palpatine more reason to moan...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-11-08 05:46am

Are you refering to the uplifting chorus?

EDIT: Okay, I found it. It's a somewhat faint male voice that occurs at about ten or fifteen seconds into the track. it doens't sound like a torturous moan at all: it's uplifting, really, and is just part of the gradual uplifting tribal-ish buildup to the main part of the song.

So yeah, there are some stupid first-time asked questions...

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-08 06:44am

RThurmont wrote:Not the shouts you hear on Coruscant, that's not what I'm referring to

They're not just on Coruscant, but whatever. The only other vocals are the choir and Jar-Jar. :P

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-08 06:58am

If it's any consolation, Palpatine is in some kind of 'Dark Side Hell' according to some bizzare source, probably the DESB or the Dark Side Sourcebook.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-08 07:03am

"The Madness Beyond Death", he described it as in DE II.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2005-11-08 03:58pm

VT-16 wrote:"The Madness Beyond Death", he described it as in DE II.

I'm inspired to speculate wildly.

Let's assume that barring some unusual measures (Force ghosts, but those appear to be temporary) when people die, thier consiousness and individuality fades into the force. For a Jedi this would be an experience akin to falling into a deep sleep, non-Force users may experience something more similar to a sudden faint. One way or the other this is not unpleasant. A Dark-side user, however, will wildly attempt to stay alive, the Darkside is all about emotion, a quality that is intrinsic to being alive. So to a Dark-side user, the process of their conciousness fading into the all of the Force may be a (relatively) lenthy process that is rather unpleasant. Perhaps it feels like their selves are being forcibly ripped away bit by bloody bit, and they are driven mad as they can feel their lives or 'souls' fading away before them. Hence, "The Madness Beyond Death", it's not Hell, but for an unknown amount of time (minutes? hours? days?) it might as well be.

The above has little or no supporting evidence, but it sounds good.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-08 04:11pm

There are few sources that talk about this, but one of them at least, explicitly says the torment is never ending.

The Dark Forces Saga, Part 6 Outcasts and Megalomaniacs Welcome wrote:Kyle then proceeded to cut the Dark Jedi down, sending Jerec's soul screaming toward Chaos alongside the Sith spirits of a thousand years hence. Thanks to his enlightenment, Jerec was well aware of the torture without respite that awaited him there.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-11-09 08:45am

NecronLord wrote:If it's any consolation, Palpatine is in some kind of 'Dark Side Hell' according to some bizzare source, probably the DESB or the Dark Side Sourcebook.

Nooo!

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-09 10:21am

Kyle then proceeded to cut the Dark Jedi down, sending Jerec's soul screaming toward Chaos alongside the Sith spirits of a thousand years hence. Thanks to his enlightenment, Jerec was well aware of the torture without respite that awaited him there.

If he was so enlightened, why not stop being evil and avoid that fate? This is non-sensical religious bullshit integrated into SW, whoopdeedoo.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-09 12:25pm

VT-16 wrote:If he was so enlightened, why not stop being evil and avoid that fate?

Because I can complete the battle to kill him in under a minute on a good day. If he'd won (which he certainly thought he was going to) he would have been able to become immortal, and it wouldn't have mattered.

Even if he did decide to think it out again, the few minutes the lightsaber battle took is hardly sufficient time to think it out again, is it? This is assuming that there isn't a requirement for action in redemption, and that it's simply deciding to be a light-sider again.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-11-10 12:06am

Doesn't the RotS novelization specifically say that immortality is something that can only be achieved by Light Side devotees, specifically never attainable by the Sith, and only after Qui-Gon discovered the method?

If this is the case, I think it overrides the Madness Beyond Death and Chaos stuff. Eternal suffering for meanie evildoers sounds a bit too much like Earth religions to me, anyway.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-10 12:23am

Cykeisme wrote:Doesn't the RotS novelization specifically say that immortality is something that can only be achieved by Light Side devotees, specifically never attainable by the Sith, and only after Qui-Gon discovered the method?

If this is the case, I think it overrides the Madness Beyond Death and Chaos stuff. Eternal suffering for meanie evildoers sounds a bit too much like Earth religions to me, anyway.

How, exactly? Its not like their really still alive, just caught beyond death in a state of unending torment, probably perpetually being consumed by their own power. Its not what I'd call immortality. I see no contradiction.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-10 04:01am

Cykeisme wrote:Eternal suffering for meanie evildoers sounds a bit too much like Earth religions to me, anyway.

Compared to the Virgin Birth of the Saviour, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-10 05:34am

Hmmm, since Palpatine died at Endor, and he spent several years getting back to a clone-host on Byss, I guess he would have some experience with the "Madness Beyond Death".

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-11-10 09:54am

NecronLord wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:Eternal suffering for meanie evildoers sounds a bit too much like Earth religions to me, anyway.
Compared to the Virgin Birth of the Saviour, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face.

Touchë!

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-11-13 11:02am

Cykeisme wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:Eternal suffering for meanie evildoers sounds a bit too much like Earth religions to me, anyway.
Compared to the Virgin Birth of the Saviour, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face.
Touchë!

I dunno...didn't they imply that Palpatine set that up?

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2005-11-13 12:49pm

Molyneux wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:
NecronLord wrote: Compared to the Virgin Birth of the Saviour, I don't see how you can say that with a straight face.
Touchë!
I dunno...didn't they imply that Palpatine set that up?

I thought it was his Master who did it?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-11-13 02:30pm

Molyneux wrote:I dunno...didn't they imply that Palpatine set that
up?

No, at least, nothing beyond speculation and fanon. He's a bona fide virgin birth.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2005-11-13 02:44pm

Cykeisme wrote:Doesn't the RotS novelization specifically say that immortality is something that can only be achieved by Light Side devotees, specifically never attainable by the Sith, and only after Qui-Gon discovered the method?

I don't know about that, but both Exar Kun and Ajunta Pall were able to stick around for awhile after they died, though I guess that the RotS novelization would override those sources.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-11-13 05:05pm

Trogdor wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:Doesn't the RotS novelization specifically say that immortality is something that can only be achieved by Light Side devotees, specifically never attainable by the Sith, and only after Qui-Gon discovered the method?
I don't know about that, but both Exar Kun and Ajunta Pall were able to stick around for awhile after they died, though I guess that the RotS novelization would override those sources.

In both those sources, I don't believe that the Sith actually ever died. He simply imbued a thing or a place with his essence or soul, so that he could exist on until someone found him and tried to revive him or access his power.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-11-14 08:52pm

Let's start an urban legend...

The "moaning" you heard was some editors having sex that accidentally got recorded.

Also, turning Jerec into an "alien" was stupid!

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-11-15 02:03am

Jerec was an alien?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-11-15 02:05am

Kurgan wrote:Let's start an urban legend...

The "moaning" you heard was some editors having sex that accidentally got recorded.

Wouldn't work. It doesn't sound anything like that at all. It just sounds like singing.