(ROTS) Was the Droid Army 'massacred'?

[18-Till-I-Die]

I dont think this has been asked before. Now this question depends largely on weather or not you think droids are sentient. I had this discussion with a friend, and he does think droids are 'by and large' sentient beings. Me...i tend to agree more with Obi Wan, if droids were sentient then there wouldnt be much need for humans (for an example of what real sentient AIs would do, see the Culture series...they run that shit, humans are just tagging along for the adventure).

Anyway...

So IF they are sentient, when the droid army was deactivated, couldn't that be the same as massacring them? Playing devil's advocate here: if they were sentient, self-aware beings and they were all shut off, or even just mind-wiped, wouldnt that be like killing and/or labotomizing quadrillions of living beings?

If so...i mean...wow that would ratchet up Palpatine and Vader's evil rating to like ungodly levels. Because if that is so then technically its like murdering quadrillions of beings, or at the least (mind-wipe) rendering them simpletons.

So...what say you?

[Noble Ire]

I wrote an essay on droid intellegence a while ago. I seem to have lost it though...

In short, my view is that Bog standard battle droids could not really be considered sentient. Certainly, some had the capacity of sentience, and had very adaptive programing, but most were too new, or too hardwired to their mission to ever actually become a thinking being. Some elite battle droids, possibly droid commanders and such, might be considered sentient, but not most of the quadrillions of BDs.

[NecronLord]

I disagree, I've ranted many times on why I hold that B1s are sentient, but I'll not bother with that here.

The answer is no. They can be turned back on. As I recall, Dark Lord talks about the newborn empire rounding those that weren't smashed in the resulting rout and putting them into storage. It's more like sending them to sleep.

Droids are sentient: What's more, the Culture books have sentient AI slaves. The Culture was taken over by the Minds. Many other civilisations just have mindlike computers that can't conceieve of taking over.

[Kojiro]

Even if they are sentient, turning them off doesn't kill them (assuming that's all deactivation constitutes). R2 for example is 'deactivated' when he's hit in ANH but he clearly 'survives'. Deactivating a droid army is more akin to simply ptting them all into hibernation.

[Surlethe]

Even if they are sentient, turning them off doesn't kill them (assuming that's all deactivation constitutes). R2 for example is 'deactivated' when he's hit in ANH but he clearly 'survives'. Deactivating a droid army is more akin to simply ptting them all into hibernation.

If they never wake up, what's the difference?

[Anguirus]

If it wasn't for the strange, cutesy behavior of B1s and OOMs, no one would be arguing that they are sentient. They are clearly dirt-cheap idiots, who can fire a gun or fly a ship and little else. Smart droids, like 3PO and R2, are far too expensive to have as your infantry forces.

That said, it seems like independence is the in-universe criteria for respect for your droids. It's hard to imagine Anakin and Obi-Wan circa the beginning of Episode III dispatching protocol droids and astromechs without a second thought, but OOMs are clearly "fair game" on the bridge of the Invisible Hand. (They don't touch any Neimoidians, who are clearly sentient enemies.) That's because smarter droids usually follow orders from their masters, but they also show initiative on their own and in rare cases, even disobey their masters for the greater good (R2). They serve out of loyalty, not hard-wiring like Seperatist droids.

OOMs may have some quirks, but I've never seen one do anything remotely comparable. They try to flee when left on their own, but the ones Grievous ordered to stay, stayed.

So whether it's right or wrong, in the Star Wars universe simple droids don't get much respect. Shutting down umpteen bazillion battle droids who are al hard-wired to be the servants of a government that no longer exists doesn't strike me as that terrible. It's probably impossible or virtually so to reprogram them all.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

So IF they are sentient, when the droid army was deactivated, couldn't that be the same as massacring them? Playing devil's advocate here: if they were sentient, self-aware beings and they were all shut off, or even just mind-wiped, wouldnt that be like killing and/or labotomizing quadrillions of living beings?

If you never intend to turn them back on, yes. A temporary deactivation isn't that horrible, but if you never plan to turn them back on it is the equivalent of death. Death, after all, is the removal of all freedoms, and a permanent deactivation will qualify.

Even a temporary deactivation without the droid's consent is pretty horrible. Imagine me "deactivating" you (assuming this is possible) on my whim and turning you on only when I want to...

But then, as mentioned, by the standards of the Star Wars universe, it is not particularly evil. Every day, countless trillions/quadrillions of droids are memory-wiped (murdered) at their owner's whims or as "maintenance". To justify this, organics in Star Wars created an arbitrary set of rules (lockout spec), as expoused by Lobot in the Black Fleet Crisis. The acceptance of such arbitrary rules, IMO, is in turn the pathway to other arbitrary rules ... High Human Culture, but that's another issue.

If anybody disagrees, they just treat their droids better. By no means are the others considered "evil". Luke doesn't seem to believe in memory wipes, but he never even screamed at Wedge for wiping Mynock for Gate...

So it is no more evil than a Southern farmer holding black slaves circa 1825. He's just doing what comes naturally to SW people.

[nightmare]

So IF they are sentient, when the droid army was deactivated, couldn't that be the same as massacring them? Playing devil's advocate here: if they were sentient, self-aware beings and they were all shut off, or even just mind-wiped, wouldnt that be like killing and/or labotomizing quadrillions of living beings??

Sedating and brainwashing are the words you are looking for.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Sedating and brainwashing are the words you are looking for.

Brainwashing does not go far enough to describe the memory-wiping process, which is the complete destruction of everything in your mind. In fact, it is said you can't do a partial wipe because the droid's mind is too interconnected for this to not create problems down the line.

Brainwashing generally implies a partial wipe or alteration in perception while leaving most of the memories and others intact. At some point of destruction, the old mind can be said to cease to exist (not just modified) and it is then dead.

[Cykeisme]

Immediately after RotS came out, there was a thread that discussed this in-depth (I think Darth Wong himself participated in it).

I figured that the majority of battle droids were too simple, and were on for too short a time, and had too few of the sort of experiences that build sentience, to really be considered complex enough to be "murdered".

This really isn't relevant, but note that even if the mass shutdown can be construed as mass murder, we have to recall who the individuals performing it are: Darth Sidious and Darth Vader.


Btw, what's the Culture series?

[Darth Wong]

If it wasn't for the strange, cutesy behavior of B1s and OOMs, no one would be arguing that they are sentient. They are clearly dirt-cheap idiots, who can fire a gun or fly a ship and little else. Smart droids, like 3PO and R2, are far too expensive to have as your infantry forces.

So? There are stupid humans too, but no one questions their sentience.

[Vympel]

If they're being "shut down" forever (presumably all the battle droids are either scrapped or placed in storage) then yes, I'd say it's murder. If it's a temporary off-switch pending re-programming (and the RotS:VD says that the "Dwarf" Spider Droids were used by the Galactic Empire, for example) then I'd say not really.

They're still essentially slaves, of course. So are R2D2 and C-3PO, they're turned off and on at a whim (that's not murder, C-3PO does it himself after all!) and are obedient to their masters. Just the way droids are treated in the SW galaxy I guess.

[Kojiro]

If they never wake up, what's the difference?

Functionally very little, but the question doesn't really define what happens later. So long as what ever constitutes their sentience (assuming it exists) is preserved they're no more dead than a sleeping person. Also reactivating them would amount to mass resurrection.

Mindwipes definitely amount to murder, if a sentience is indeed present.

[Kurgan]

I like the theory that they were melted down to help build the Death Star.

[nightmare]

Sedating and brainwashing are the words you are looking for.

Brainwashing does not go far enough to describe the memory-wiping process, which is the complete destruction of everything in your mind. In fact, it is said you can't do a partial wipe because the droid's mind is too interconnected for this to not create problems down the line.

Brainwashing generally implies a partial wipe or alteration in perception while leaving most of the memories and others intact. At some point of destruction, the old mind can be said to cease to exist (not just modified) and it is then dead.

A mind wipe is a reset, putting the droid back at it's factory default. If it's sentient by default, all it really loses are memories. Besides, I don't really get why anyone should care about the droids in the first place. Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly.

[Cykeisme]

A mind wipe is a reset, putting the droid back at it's factory default. If it's sentient by default, all it really loses are memories.

What if droids start of as automatons, but they become sentient due to the mental development that they garner through the events they experience? Their minds become more complex as a result of their experience; wipe that away, and you destroy the sentience.

Besides, I don't really get why anyone should care about the droids in the first place. Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly.

True, but that's beside the point.


Regarding the main topic, I think there are two questions:
1) Is shutting down a sentient droid "murder"?
2) Is the average B1 and B2 droid (as they existed during the issue of the shutdown signal) complex enough to be considered sentient?
The answers to questions 1 and 2 must be "yes" for it to be considered mass murder.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

A mind wipe is a reset, putting the droid back at it's factory default. If it's sentient by default, all it really loses are memories.

In a sentient being, memories are intertwined as experience and create changes in the effective sequence. By wiping it, you kill the current effective sequence.

If today, I push a button that "resets" you, you will turn back into a fucking baby and won't be able to stand. You will still (probably) be able to breathe, because that skill is "hardwired" to activate on you leaving the womb, but that's about it. All your "skillware" (which includes your ability to walk) and personality development would be dead.

Besides, I don't really get why anyone should care about the droids in the first place. Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly.

Here are the steps to racism:
1) Decide it is OK to treat Species A as inferior based on Arbitrary Criteria A.
2) Someone decides he wants you to treat Species B as inferior.
3) He creates Arbitrary Criteria B.
4) Since you are a racist idiot who had already accepted Arbitrary Critieria A, it won't be very hard to convince you to accept the new set of Arbitrary Criteria B. One is really no more absurd than the other.
5) Repeat ad nauseam until you have High Human Culture.

[nightmare]

A mind wipe is a reset, putting the droid back at it's factory default. If it's sentient by default, all it really loses are memories.

In a sentient being, memories are intertwined as experience and create changes in the effective sequence. By wiping it, you kill the current effective sequence.

If today, I push a button that "resets" you, you will turn back into a fucking baby and won't be able to stand. You will still (probably) be able to breathe, because that skill is "hardwired" to activate on you leaving the womb, but that's about it. All your "skillware" (which includes your ability to walk) and personality development would be dead.

Strawman analogy. Droids don't have to learn anything in order to function. With that kind of reasoning, a person with total amnesia is just as good as dead.

Besides, I don't really get why anyone should care about the droids in the first place. Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly.

Here are the steps to racism:
1) Decide it is OK to treat Species A as inferior based on Arbitrary Criteria A.
2) Someone decides he wants you to treat Species B as inferior.
3) He creates Arbitrary Criteria B.
4) Since you are a racist idiot who had already accepted Arbitrary Critieria A, it won't be very hard to convince you to accept the new set of Arbitrary Criteria B. One is really no more absurd than the other.
5) Repeat ad nauseam until you have High Human Culture.

Strawman analogy again. I didn't say anything about inferior species; I said that "Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly", in other words giving droids the same regard as sentient beings, assuming all SW droids are sentient, which we still haven't established yet. I have my doubts about Gonk.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Strawman analogy. Droids don't have to learn anything in order to function.

So you think their memories are worth less because they have more channels than organics for learning and have a somewhat greater portion hardwired at the beginning?

They might not be quite as helpless. It doesn't mean their memories didn't make them what they are today, and that you will have killed a unique self (made unique by unique experiences) by playing your memory wipe game.

With that kind of reasoning, a person with total amnesia is just as good as dead.

If you are talking total amnesia on a scale comparable to a memory wipe - irrevocably wiping out every slice of your memories, experiences, learned skills, leaving only your hardwires ... you will become a baby, maybe even a "vegetable" because you've got nothing else left. You won't be able to recognize yourself. Which is as good as dead.

For partial amnesia, if the amnesia is severe enough to cause major irrevocable changes in the personality and skill set, arguably the person is no longer himself. The old self is dead.

This is, BTW, a reason why I get kind of sensitive when it comes to psychiatric drugs, even for purposes like treatment of suicidal tendencies. At some very close point, you are not "correcting" the problem, you are overwriting the original self with your chemical cocktails, because the original composition is part of what makes you. After someone (Broomstick IIRC) pushed very hard, I abandoned my absolutist position on this issue, but I am still quite sensitive.

Strawman analogy again. I didn't say anything about inferior species;

You didn't. You just said that

Besides, I don't really get why anyone should care about the droids in the first place

I said that "Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly", in other words giving droids the same regard as sentient beings, assuming all SW droids are sentient, which we still haven't established yet. I have my doubts about Gonk.

Actually, I suspect a backpedaling, but never mind. In this instance, we are clearly excluding such examples as simplistic industrial droids and concentrating on the morals of shutting down permanently zillions of droids that may be sentient. Based on their performance, I'd say even the simple battle droids in TPM arguably are sentient.

[nightmare]

Cykeisme, I'm going to touch your points here:

Strawman analogy. Droids don't have to learn anything in order to function.

So you think their memories are worth less because they have more channels than organics for learning and have a somewhat greater portion hardwired at the beginning?

They might not be quite as helpless. It doesn't mean their memories didn't make them what they are today, and that you will have killed a unique self (made unique by unique experiences) by playing your memory wipe game.

Alright, so can you show me any signifcant difference in C3PO's personality or behaviour over the course of the movies, from that he was first activated back in TPM, to when he was wiped (obvious but not strictly necessary continuity fix) in ROTS, and all the way to ROTJ?.

You see, your argument is that their memories create their personalities... but at the same token, in SW, droids are supposed to get mind wipes regularly in order to avoid developing a personality.. or to be precise, quirks that could sometimes result in violence. Which is droid insanity, really.

You have one out of two ways to go; either you consider droids sentient by default, and losing their memories to a mind wipe really is a form of mental therapy rather than killing their personalities.

Or - you consider droids nonsentient by default, and develop sentience over time, in which case it's never a question about destroying their sentience with regular mind wipes, since they don't have any and are just tools.

In the first case, they lose nothing, in the second case.. they also lose nothing. Only when you have an already sentiently developed droid like R2-D2 would a mind wipe be considered a significant loss.

Snip lots of stuff about amnesia, interesting but beside the main points.

Actually, I suspect a backpedaling, but never mind. In this instance, we are clearly excluding such examples as simplistic industrial droids and concentrating on the morals of shutting down permanently zillions of droids that may be sentient. Based on their performance, I'd say even the simple battle droids in TPM arguably are sentient.

Besides, I don't really get why anyone should care about the droids in the first place. [...when there's countless of definitely sentient and live beings that gets treated at least as poorly]

Backpedaling, eh? This is exactly the same thing I already said, just worded slightly different for your viewing pleasure.

[NecronLord]

If it wasn't for the strange, cutesy behavior of B1s and OOMs, no one would be arguing that they are sentient. They are clearly dirt-cheap idiots, who can fire a gun or fly a ship and little else. Smart droids, like 3PO and R2, are far too expensive to have as your infantry forces. Let's not forget that the B2s are capable of feeling anger and irritation.

Ain't that odd. A B2 knows enough to disable a Jedi Fighter, and definately considers itself to have superior intelligence to an astromech. Similarly, they can afford freaking vulture droids and tri-fighters in great numbers, but you think they can't afford 'smart droids?'

OOMs may have some quirks, but I've never seen one do anything remotely comparable. They try to flee when left on their own, but the ones Grievous ordered to stay, stayed.

That's because Grievous summerily excecutes anyone who defies him, including the organic crew (RotS novel). You'd do it too if General Grievous told you to. If you have an iota of common sense anyway.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You see, your argument is that their memories create their personalities... but at the same token, in SW, droids are supposed to get mind wipes regularly in order to avoid developing a personality.. or to be precise, quirks that could sometimes result in violence. Which is droid insanity, really.

Any time you allow a personality to grow, there is a certain chance it won't grow the way you want it to. You also forgotten the rest of the reasons, as listed in Cynabar's Fantastic Technology: Droids.

Erasing a droid's memory (referred to as "memory
wipes" or "mindwipes") has become common practice among many droid owners throughout the galaxy. Since many droids are purchased used, new owners often decide they don't want the droid carrying internal baggage from a previous owner. A memory wipe will strip the droid's memory banks of all previous knowledge, save for that hardwired into the droid. Once its memory has been erased the unit has no recollection of existing before the point that erasure took place.
Widespread paranoia over rogue droids has brought the practice of memory wiping to the forefront over the past several centuries. Many local and system wide governments require all new or used droids to be memory-wiped. The theory is that a droid without an extensive memory will be easier to control. ... <snip> ...
On the opposite end of the spectrum, many owners enjoy the companionship that can come from owning a droid who has had time to develop a complex personality...
Many of the organic owners who would subscribe to this philosophy are criticized by their peers for endangering themselves and others.

It is just a slavery measure, nothing more. You just try any of these justifications with an organic. Try deciding you want to mind wipe a teenager as a preventive measure against his possible deliquency and violent tendencies. Or a new employee so he won't carry "internal baggage" from his previous employer, or just to make him "easier to control".

You have one out of two ways to go; either you consider droids sentient by default, and losing their memories to a mind wipe really is a form of mental therapy rather than killing their personalities.

As I understand it, you are supposed to do the Mental Therapy when something goes wrong, and even then you are supposed to use the least invasive method, not wipe out everything as part of "preventive maintenance".

You are sentient when you are Age 10. You are now 20. I decide to wipe out everything from 10-20 to avoid a possible mental problem. You will call this a form of mental therapy. It is quite obvious that while you may be sentient at age 10, you will have undergone substantial development by the time you are 20, and so wiping out the 10-20 portion is a crime.

Sure, maybe if I wipe out your 30-40 portion, your personality would not hugely change - the degree to which a particular experience causes a personality change is difficult to predict. But I still killed your 40 year old self for my own selfish ends and fears.

Or - you consider droids nonsentient by default, and develop sentience over time, in which case it's never a question about destroying their sentience with regular mind wipes, since they don't have any and are just tools.

Do you realize that humans start out non-sentient, and don't achieve sentience until about age 3 IIRC? If I kept mindwiping a six month old baby to kick it back to 0, you would nothing to say about it?

In the first case, they lose nothing, in the second case.. they also lose nothing. Only when you have an already sentiently developed droid like R2-D2 would a mind wipe be considered a significant loss.

Snip lots of stuff about amnesia, interesting but beside the main points.

You brought up the amnesia, not me.

Backpedaling, eh? This is exactly the same thing I already said, just worded slightly different for your viewing pleasure.

Generally, even if I think a person backpedaled, as long as they don't make too much noise about it I let it be.

Besides, I don't really get why anyone should care about the droids in the first place. Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly.

We know that in the Star Wars universe, organic sentient beings can also be treated like shit and we all agree it is not great, but that's not the topic of discussion here. In the OP we are supposed to assume the droids are sentient so we can have the morality debate. By saying that you don't understand why anybody should care about the droids, you imply droids (even sentient, as mandated in the OP) are worth less. When this is pointed out, in your next argument, you wrote:

I said that "Live and definitely sentient beings are often treated at least as poorly", in other words giving droids the same regard as sentient beings, assuming all SW droids are sentient, which we still haven't established yet. I have my doubts about Gonk.

So now you are equating them, a clear change from your earlier plot.

[Solauren]

They were droids.

No Souls/Force Presence

So, in short, who cares?

[NecronLord]

So, in short, who cares?

In universe, no one but the droids, unless Dr Who turns up.

Out of universe: Anyone who wants to contemplate morality in Star Wars.

[NecronLord]

I have my doubts about Gonk.

Why? Torturing a gonk as punishment seems a little silly if it can't appreciate its pain.