(ROTS) Was the Droid Army 'massacred'?

[NecronLord]

Not true. Only the infantry units are B1s, to my understanding. Security and pilot droids are all OOMs, or so I was told. This is the source of our misunderstanding, not a lie or afailure to watch the film carefully.

OOM models are droid generals. They're the yellow painted ones. AFAIK. there is only one that could be an OOM in RotS, the one that says 'you're welcome.' Others, Pilot and Security droids, while having greater independance than the infantry model (partly by design and partly due to their spending more time active) are still essentially the same (see the Databank on that one if you don't believe me).

There are even other command droids that don't hold the OOM designation. According to the TPM ICS, a yellow command droid in every trade fed tank, but according to other sources (the manual/background of Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds for example) there were only a dozen or so OOMs in the Trade Federation Army at the time of the Invasion of Naboo.

I included my original quote so I could show you how little your response had to do with it. You do not address the fact that their loyalty is absolute. I know that their droids learn. However, there's a big gap between getting better at combat and approaching sentience, much less open rebellion.

So what you're saying, is that if you're conscripted, and don't rebel, you're not sentient? What people like you don't get is that the emotions of the B1 are what makes it worthy of consideration as a humanlike 'sentient', and the fact that they're all made loyal to their owners doesn't make them any less so - Turkish jannissaries did all that sort of thing, according to the histories of them. Just because they're childlike doesn't mean they're mindless. They feel pain, and fear, and hesitation, and anxiety. In those respects, they're rather more human than the clones.


Let's just pause to remind ourselves of what sentient means:
Main Entry: sen·tient
Pronunciation: 'sen-ch(E-)&nt, 'sent-E-&nt
Function: adjective
: responsive to or conscious of sense impressions —sen·tient·ly adverb

Now obviously, animals are sentient. In this context, we mean the degree of sentience which humans posess, namely, that of being responsive to abstract input, and able to comprehend relatively abstract data like speech. Indeed, I think you'll have a hard time finding a meaning of sentient that a B1 doesn't fulfill. Are they as smart as the average human? Perhaps not (or perhaps, given some of the idiots out there). Does this mean they're complete automata without feelings? No.

I'm talking about OOMs. You bring up a totally different model of droid, an expensive one that was produced in limited numbers. I will not speculate on your motives forchanging the subject of discussion so drastically, because I KNOW you can tell the difference between the dirt-cheap spindlies and an IG-88.

Yes. The difference between IG-88 and a B1 is sophsitication. It's a point of battle droids not being as flawlessly loyal as you claim.

I only remember them opening the canopy and looking around, but I can't make a firm statement on this till I rewatch it.

They are in fact, poking around inside, they're not removing anything in the film though. I would have to check on the novel.

Spare me this pathetic bilge. You're smart enough to know that an army on a GALACTIC scale is the subject under discussion.

You can build quintillions of B1s that are just bright enough to walk around, shoot, and hold territory, or you can build a smaller number of smarter droids. The SMART thing to do, what the CIS DOES, is build vast numbers of idiot savants and support them with more intelligent droid fire support, armor, and aircraft.

Actually, they don't pay for their droids. They're made in self replicating factories (RotS novel), with the exception of the Vulture Droids, they don't have to pay for anything. Given how vastly the B2 and destroyer models outpreform the B1, this is actually a stupid thing to do. Grievous is quite clear in that the B1 is simply not worth using in anything beyond a policing/cannon fodder role, because they're so inept. He far preffers B2s (hence his army of them in the clone wars cartoons.

Of course I would! What's he going to do, chase me? He's got bigger fish to fry.

He'd swat you before you got a pace. He's absurdly fast.

I'm gone when he turns his back, assuming I'm not an extreme CIS patriot, insane, or hard-wired to be loyal.

Which is what they did. Note that not one droid remained on the bridge longer than it had to.

[NecronLord]

Just FYI, two shots after Grievous tells the pilots to keep the ship in orbit, the entire bridge is deserted. Those two appear to have been the last two who hadn't already run off or been cut down. Obi-Wan then chops them up, and he and Anakin confront Grievous.

[Anguirus]

OOM models are droid generals. They're the yellow painted ones. AFAIK. there is only one that could be an OOM in RotS, the one that says 'you're welcome.' Others, Pilot and Security droids, while having greater independance than the infantry model (partly by design and partly due to their spending more time active) are still essentially the same (see the Databank on that one if you don't believe me).

There are even other command droids that don't hold the OOM designation. According to the TPM ICS, a yellow command droid in every trade fed tank, but according to other sources (the manual/background of Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds for example) there were only a dozen or so OOMs in the Trade Federation Army at the time of the Invasion of Naboo.

Thank you. I was misinformed.

Still, there seems to be a difference been the non-colored droids and others.

So what you're saying, is that if you're conscripted, and don't rebel, you're not sentient?

No, I'm saying that battle droids may not be sentient. Either you're having a hard time following the discussion or you're twisting my words.

What people like you don't get is that the emotions of the B1 are what makes it worthy of consideration as a humanlike 'sentient', and the fact that they're all made loyal to their owners doesn't make them any less so - Turkish jannissaries did all that sort of thing, according to the histories of them.

Turkish janissaries were mass-produced in large factories and had artificial intelligences incapable of allowng them to betray their government?

Emotions are also not a uniquely human phenomenon. They appear in many animals that we do not consider sentient.

Just because they're childlike doesn't mean they're mindless.

Agreed. But just because they aren't mindless doesn't make them particularly intelligent or sentient.

They feel pain, and fear, and hesitation, and anxiety.

Pain and fear are little more than detection of damage and the ability to strive to avoid it. They are essential, in some form or another, for anything ambulatory. Hesitation and anxiety aren't much different from fear.

You won't find many of our food animals that can't feel pain and fear.

In those respects, they're rather more human than the clones.

Except for NOT BEING HUMAN. In addition, clones certainly feel pain and fear, if you watch RotS.

"They're all over me!"

"Get a medic over here!"

"AGGH!"

"AAAAA!"

"AhhhAhhh!"

In this context, we mean the degree of sentience which humans posess, namely, that of being responsive to abstract input, and able to comprehend relatively abstract data like speech. Indeed, I think you'll have a hard time finding a meaning of sentient that a B1 doesn't fulfill.

The computer you are typing at right now responds to abstract input.

Does this mean they're complete automata without feelings? No.

I'd say that the question cannot be resolved fully without an actual B1 to examine. It's certainly an open one. There are some unusual droids on Grievous' ship, no doubt, but I haven't seen one converse on a much higher level than SmarterChild in the films.

Yes. The difference between IG-88 and a B1 is sophsitication. It's a point of battle droids not being as flawlessly loyal as you claim.

This would be far more convincing if you produced evidence that a) IG-88 is a typical war droid, and b) that he ever betrayed the CIS.

Actually, they don't pay for their droids. They're made in self replicating factories (RotS novel)

...do you even realize what you just said here?

You know, making things in factories COSTS MONEY!

Given how vastly the B2 and destroyer models outpreform the B1, this is actually a stupid thing to do.

They cost more to make.

Grievous is quite clear in that the B1 is simply not worth using in anything beyond a policing/cannon fodder role, because they're so inept. He far preffers B2s (hence his army of them in the clone wars cartoons.

Well, you know, he can populate his elite forces however he wants. He's only the leader of the whole damn army. But I bet he's glad to have those quintillions of B1s that can shoot just fine.

He'd swat you before you got a pace. He's absurdly fast.

Perhaps I'd wait until he leaps across the bridge?

Which is what they did. Note that not one droid remained on the bridge longer than it had to.

Indeed.

Those two appear to have been the last two who hadn't already run off or been cut down. Obi-Wan then chops them up, and he and Anakin confront Grievous.

So...they were ordered to stay, they stayed, and they died.

[NecronLord]

You know, making things in factories COSTS MONEY!

Wrong. CIS factories were fully automated. The initial investment to make one factory was all they had to pay. After that the factories were self-replicating, and able to travel interstellar. They just land them on a conquered world, and start consuming the resources. Because no one in the chain of added value was actually being paid, and because they fuelled themselves, they cost nothing. They were like World Devastators.

They cost more to make.

Not really, as no costs are incurred in the CIS manufacturing process.

Perhaps I'd wait until he leaps across the bridge?

They were chopped apart by obi-wan literally frames after saying 'yes sir.' The ones you're thinking of that stayed were red coloured security droids. Their job is to fight intruders - and before you say that's an sign of inferior intelligence, I will point out that real soldiers have done this sort of thing when similarly outmatched - Cavalrymen charging Nazi tanks in Poland for example.

So...they were ordered to stay, they stayed, and they died.

Read this.

Now read this.

Between the time you read those, Obi-Wan would have chopped you to bits if you were one of those droids. They didn't exactly have a massive opportunity to run away, did they? Note that the others did run the fuck away when they had the chance.

What you're essentially saying is that if an al-quaeda suicide bomber breaks onto the bridge of the USS Nimitz and blows himself up, the people who got killed by him were killed because they couldn't move like a fucking Roston Warrior Robot. As opposed to simply being killed by enemy action.

[Tiriol]

Read this.

Now read this.

Between the time you read those, Obi-Wan would have chopped you to bits if you were one of those droids. They didn't exactly have a massive opportunity to run away, did they? Note that the others did run the fuck away when they had the chance.

By the by, was I the only one who thought that some of those battle droids on the Invisible Hand's bridge were clearly trying to surrender? One of the droids had even raised its hands just before Obi-Wan chopped it to pieces, as if trying desperately to safe its neck/torso or trying to send out a message of "I surrender, please don't hurt me!".

[NecronLord]

By the by, was I the only one who thought that some of those battle droids on the Invisible Hand's bridge were clearly trying to surrender? One of the droids had even raised its hands just before Obi-Wan chopped it to pieces, as if trying desperately to safe its neck/torso or trying to send out a message of "I surrender, please don't hurt me!".

At one point, a Pilot droid grabs another and says "RUN!" before being murdered by Obi-Wan.

[The Original Nex]

I would guess that the Pilot Droids have stronger self-preservation programming than their Security and Soldier counterparts, as they are critical for operating ship systems. As such I can understand their running away/attempted surrender.

However, they certainly do seem higher sentients. They cheer on the IG-100s battleing the Jedi shouting "Get him!" briefly before immediately returning to their duties. A mindless automaton would not have even acknowledge the duel and continued performing their programmed functions without pause.

[NecronLord]

More likely the secdroids stuck around because they were armed and thought of themselves as soldiers, thus wanting to kill the jedi, whereas the pilots were unarmed, and thus thought of escape. Humans are quite capable of this behaviour (taking on massively superior opponents because of 'duty') after all.

[Noble Ire]

By the by, was I the only one who thought that some of those battle droids on the Invisible Hand's bridge were clearly trying to surrender? One of the droids had even raised its hands just before Obi-Wan chopped it to pieces, as if trying desperately to safe its neck/torso or trying to send out a message of "I surrender, please don't hurt me!".

It may have simply been a random, jerky reaction to percieved danger in a confused, compact area. The droids may have well been trying to manuever themselves towards a firearm.

Then again, I am fully open to the possibility that the command droids possessed more intellegence (even sentience) than their B1 brothers. It may have been activating a self-preservation routine, although considering the proximity to an angry GG, that seems unlikely. As for Obi-Wan, it was the heat of battle, and he never seems to have any problem killing droids (he doesn't seem to think of them as much more than machines, even when dealing with droids with direct outward signs of independant thought, like R2.)

[NecronLord]

It may have simply been a random, jerky reaction to percieved danger in a confused, compact area. The droids may have well been trying to manuever themselves towards a firearm.

Unlikely. Why not just pick one up from a fallen security droid, instead of try to flee the bridge?

As for Obi-Wan, it was the heat of battle, and he never seems to have any problem killing droids (he doesn't seem to think of them as much more than machines, even when dealing with droids with direct outward signs of independant thought, like R2.)

Oh yes, I'm hardly saying Obi-Wan (or anyone else in-universe {barring other droids}) would think of it as murder, or think that he was doing anything but smashing up tools. However, I certainly do, convinced as I am that most Star Wars droids, like trekograms qualify as life-forms worthy of the same respect as humans.

[The Original Nex]

More likely the secdroids stuck around because they were armed and thought of themselves as soldiers, thus wanting to kill the jedi, whereas the pilots were unarmed, and thus thought of escape. Humans are quite capable of this behaviour (taking on massively superior opponents because of 'duty') after all.

Indeed Grievous had to order over-zealous SecDroids to "Stay at your stations!" as they were rushing towards the Jedi.

[NecronLord]

Indeed Grievous had to order over-zealous SecDroids to "Stay at your stations!" as they were rushing towards the Jedi.

That there of course, is a sign of them not being automatons. If you were programming droids in fighting jedi, would you make them close the distance when firing?

[18-Till-I-Die]

I've seen some very convincing arguments for self-aware droids here. And it makes me maybe reconsider my stance on droids.

But still, i have to ask...why?

To what end would you build a sentient robot? Even a pilot droid, or comamnder. Preprogramed responses would be just as effective, if you have enough and they are varied enough, and would probably be less costly.

I said the same thing, and i kind of still do, about R2D2...why build a sentient wrench? And make no mistake, he's just a tool for repairing ships, like a wrench, but a fancy wrench with cute beeps and whistles. But does that mean he's 'alive'.

I'm for some reason struggling with the idea of sentient robots. I cant think of any good reason why, but like i said some very good arguments for it have been made, IMO.

I dont want to seem so shallow, but on the one hand i have this issue where i just cant picture a little trashcan on wheels or a skeletal war machine to be 'alive' or sentient. But it seems, like they are, or may be.

[Noble Ire]

18:

The reasons you listed are largely why I don't believe most droids are sentient. It simply doesn't make sense to give most of them sentience, especially considering the way their often treated. In my view, sentience only comes about in three ways: Malfunction or production defect (IG-88 series, EVE-9D9), expensive, custom droids that need a fully aware intellect (Guri), and droids that have survived for an exceedingly long time without mind wipes, or have been heavily modified by their owners (C-3PO, R2-D2, HK-47.) Standard, mass produced droids do not need real intellegence, and it would likely be a detriment in many cases (as seen in Wedge's astromech.) The technology obviously exists, but it is not widely used out of practicality, ethical issues, and perhaps even fear(as supported by Obi-Wan's quote "If droids could think, none of us would be here.")

[NecronLord]

But still, i have to ask...why?

To what end would you build a sentient robot? Even a pilot droid, or comamnder. Preprogramed responses would be just as effective, if you have enough and they are varied enough, and would probably be less costly.

Ask an AI professor. The new fields of AI don't revolve on making expert systems in a designed manner you suggest, but on making a framework that will then learn for itself; a good explanation of this you will be familiar with is the terminators in the films bearing their name. Neural nets are the most likely way robot minds will be made.

Simply put, it's not necesserily true that they know how to make AIs that will not become sentient given time and experience. This would explain why memory wipes are viewed as routine maintainance.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Any time you allow a personality to grow, there is a certain chance it won't grow the way you want it to. You also forgotten the rest of the reasons, as listed in Cynabar's Fantastic Technology: Droids.

A *much* higher chance that it will go wrong than good apparently. Or what's the use of near-ubiquitous mind wipes otherwise?

Did you read the quotation? It is expressedly stated that the rogue part is based on paranoia, so at least in the opinion of the person writing, the danger is low but far exaggerated in SW common opinion. Or many just don't want to bother.

As you know, there are lots of organic slaves, and there's nothing that justifies treating droids better than organics. All this also assumes that they are truly sentient to being with.

The OP states to assume they are for the purpose of morality debate. The battle droids do show enough emotion in my book to qualify them for this. In any case, I'm obviously talking about whatever segment of droids that have enough complexity in their personality to be rated sentient.

As for organic slaves, they may be beaten in SW, but apparently, at least they aren't "wiped". Also, people in SW at least feel something about slavery of organics (those not in High Human Culture), but they give nary a thought about the droid slavery all around them.

How about if there's such a high probablity that something goes wrong over time that it's next to a certainty?

First establish that. There is apparently a segment of the population that doesn't do it. I don't see most of them being killed by their droids. You seem very interested in trying to justify this immoral practice.

Would you rather wait and see if your droid tries to kill you before you press the reset button? Since you want to use the "least invasive method", I'm assuming that you consider reprogramming less invasive than a memory reset. Generally, when it comes to real life computers, we consider a reset a much less invasive solution than reprogamming. But you equate a mind wipe with formatting rather than losing RAM, obviously. I'm not so sure that analogy works. A mind wiped droid is perfectly functionable, while a formatted computer is a piece of junk.

1) Reprogramming, out of a very small analog zone in which it approaches death of the original personality, would equate to it. Imagine if I "reprogrammed" you.
2) As for a memory wipe, it is formatting. Imagine a computer where there is only ROM and "Flash" memory. Now delete everything in the Flash memory.
3) A computer today has three main forms of memory - the hardwired ROM, the hard disk and the RAM. The data in the RAM has no permanent significance unless it is expressedly stored onto the hard disk - one can say it itself is a cache. The RAM is actually more analogous to a little memory buffer the droid might have to temporarily store data until it can be processed and committed to its Flash memory. Wiping THAT out probably won't have major consequences and can't be considered killing.
4) One can analogize the situation further by adding a simple program, say NOTEPAD into the ROM. That gives it some functionality. But the Flash memory has all the other stuff to make NOTEPAD into Microsoft Word (as well as holding all your computer games). When you wipe the Flash, this goes.

You've got the age 3 wrong in my experience... but it depends on the individual, of course. In any case, you are assuming that a six month old droid equates to the sentience level of a six month old human. There's no evidence for this whatsoever.

The point is more that if we assume a droid develops rather than has sentience from the get-go, the situation is actually more analogous to a human, who also develops his sentience over time. We would scream if a potential sentience is destroyed in the form of a baby, but with a droid it is hunky-dory...

[Anguirus]

Wrong. CIS factories were fully automated.

I find it literally difficult to believe that you are having trouble with the idea that factories need raw material to make things! Not to mention, fully automated factories need to spend resources repairing, maintaining, and (as you say) expanding themselves.

The initial investment to make one factory was all they had to pay. After that the factories were self-replicating, and able to travel interstellar.

So they are paying the hyperspace fuel costs of a self-propelled flying factory.

Man, you just lost me...self-propelling flying factories. That have no operational costs. Man, I'd LOVE to see your canon source here.

They just land them on a conquered world, and start consuming the resources. Because no one in the chain of added value was actually being paid, and because they fuelled themselves, they cost nothing. They were like World Devastators.

So they got the raw materials from conquered worlds...which they had to spend an enormous amount of time and money subjugating totally, of course.

Where have you been infected with this free-lunch brainbug?

And it's STILL a smart idea to build lots of droids as fast as possible in your scenario, incidentally. They can lose 100 idiots to every clone and come out ahead.

Not really, as no costs are incurred in the CIS manufacturing process.

And I've got some desert land to sell you in Florida.

Also, as I pointed out above, time is an issue. You want large quntities incredibly fast no matter what your budget is, and you make as many as fast do that if every droid brain is more complex than it must be.

They were chopped apart by obi-wan literally frames after saying 'yes sir.

This is actually irrelevant. We're talking about why truly independent units would be unlikely to stick around, not how fast they get killed afterward.

The ones you're thinking of that stayed were red coloured security droids. Their job is to fight intruders - and before you say that's an sign of inferior intelligence, I will point out that real soldiers have done this sort of thing when similarly outmatched - Cavalrymen charging Nazi tanks in Poland for example.

Wow, sixty-plus years later the Nazi propaganda works! That's where the "lancers charging tanks" thing came from. And the whole idea was that the Poles were stupid and behind the times, not brave.

Anyway, I actually wasn't thinking of those, but let's discuss them anyway. They moved forward to do their job...security. Grievous orders them back, and they stay back. Nothing here is inconsistent with any of my earlier statements.

Between the time you read those, Obi-Wan would have chopped you to bits if you were one of those droids. They didn't exactly have a massive opportunity to run away, did they? Note that the others did run the fuck away when they had the chance.

Why are we suddenly fixated on Kenobi? We're talking about the actions of the droids here! And in the OT, we're talking about the morality of shutting all the droids down, not the actions of Kenobi and Skywalker when surrounded by enemy droids in a cramped environment.

What you're essentially saying is that if an al-quaeda suicide bomber breaks onto the bridge of the USS Nimitz and blows himself up, the people who got killed by him were killed because they couldn't move like a fucking Roston Warrior Robot. As opposed to simply being killed by enemy action.

This is utterly irrelevant and I can't imagine why you're bothering except to sidetrack me. Screw that.

And you're still putting words in my mouth. so grow up. I don't care if they had TIME to perform any actions, my point was, battle droids don't dispbey orders, no matter what. Unlike our good friend and model of droid sapience, R2-D2.

[NecronLord]

I find it literally difficult to believe that you are having trouble with the idea that factories need raw material to make things! Not to mention, fully automated factories need to spend resources repairing, maintaining, and (as you say) expanding themselves.

Which costs money why? A droid factory uses its own resources to mine raw material. Jesus christ, what you're essentailly saying is that there must be some external force funding the Earth's economy.

So they are paying the hyperspace fuel costs of a self-propelled flying factory.

Assuming of course, that there are such costs, which would seem unlikely, given that there's a canon statement that they don't have to pay for these things, and an example of the same technologies producing hyper-capable vessels, which gets nary a peep of objection from anyone.

Man, you just lost me...self-propelling flying factories. That have no operational costs. Man, I'd LOVE to see your canon source here.

As you wish - easiest to find:

General Grievous's invading forces have constructed command centers and self-replicating Techno-Union factories on Utapau. These facilities create new troops, stargifhters, wheel bikes and other vehicles using local materials. If left undisturbed they will turn Utapau into yet another of the Outer Rim's fortress worlds, riddled with ugly refineries and assembly lines and trembling under the weight of ever more deadly Seperatist war machines.

Elsewhere, I can't find it right now, is the description of such factories being landed on planets. However, this is the key point. After the initial cost of the first factories, everything else comes free by stealing Utapaun minerals and energy sources. Are you seeing that?

So they got the raw materials from conquered worlds...which they had to spend an enormous amount of time and money subjugating totally, of course.

Why do they have to subjugate it totally? Just shoot anything that goes near it. Hell, we know for a fact that the invasion of Utapau was so ham-fisted that they didn't even account for Tion Medon's fighters.

Where have you been infected with this free-lunch brainbug?

Perhaps this 'brainbug' started with the self-replicating flying factory that has been a fan-favourite and standing part of the star wars canon for about ten years at least? Ta da!

And it's STILL a smart idea to build lots of droids as fast as possible in your scenario, incidentally. They can lose 100 idiots to every clone and come out ahead.

Actually, the number given is 400. Though as the source for that is totally ludicrous...

And I've got some desert land to sell you in Florida.

And I've got some World Devastators, and Replicators, and black monoliths, and other stock-sci-fi clanking replicators to show you.

Also, as I pointed out above, time is an issue. You want large quntities incredibly fast no matter what your budget is, and you make as many as fast do that if every droid brain is more complex than it must be.

They were chopped apart by obi-wan literally frames after saying 'yes sir.

This is actually irrelevant. We're talking about why truly independent units would be unlikely to stick around, not how fast they get killed afterward.

Are you a moron? There are only two left at this stage, and they do so because they are brave they're the ship's pilots, they're trying to keep it flying.

Wow, sixty-plus years later the Nazi propaganda works! That's where the "lancers charging tanks" thing came from. And the whole idea was that the Poles were stupid and behind the times, not brave.

Incorrect. Polish cavalry units did engage a panzer unit successfully at least once, and on other occasions, attempted things like charging machine guns. The myth is that the poles did it all the time, not that they did it at all.

Anyway, I actually wasn't thinking of those, but let's discuss them anyway. They moved forward to do their job...security. Grievous orders them back, and they stay back. Nothing here is inconsistent with any of my earlier statements.

He orders them back because their foolish actions would have gotten them killed sooner. They still did their job, they just did it from their posts.

Why are we suddenly fixated on Kenobi? We're talking about the actions of the droids here! And in the OT, we're talking about the morality of shutting all the droids down, not the actions of Kenobi and Skywalker when surrounded by enemy droids in a cramped environment.

This is utterly irrelevant and I can't imagine why you're bothering except to sidetrack me. Screw that.

Incorrect. You are saying that because pilot and security droids remained on the bridge, this is proof of their being mindless automata. Even when presented with evidence that most of those who had a chance to run did so, and those who didn't didn't because they were either fighting the jedi, or attempting to keep the ship in orbit. Their behaviour was no different from that of an organic crew, and yet you're attempting to use it to argue that these droids are non-sentient, and that their getting hacked down indicates that they didn't have the initiative to run away, as opposed to simply not having the opportunity.

And you're still putting words in my mouth. so grow up. I don't care if they had TIME to perform any actions, my point was, battle droids don't dispbey orders, no matter what. Unlike our good friend and model of droid sapience, R2-D2.

They do run off the fucking bridge. What more do you want? A shakesperian B1 love story perhaps? Or would you preffer the B1s to start reading existential poetry at some point in the film?

[Darth Wong]

Anguirus, it is quite obvious that you will respond to any evidence of sentience by simply declaring that they were programmed to act that way (even when it goes against orders, eg- fleeing a dangerous situation), so it doesn't count. So tell me, what would constitute evidence of sentience in your mind?

[Mark S]

This is off topic but I can't help but put in, NecronLord, nothing is without cost. The resources of the planet that is being used by the factories, resources that could be used for anything else or sold raw, are the cost.

[Publius]

Perhaps the true problem here is one of terminology. As has been pointed out, the word sentience (from the Latin verb sentire, to feel) merely signifies the ability to feel or perceive, but does not necessarily include self-awareness or free will (itself a rather complicated philosophical subject). Sapience, on the other hand, derived from the Latin verb sapere, to know, signifies the capacity to think intelligently about sensations, feelings, and ideas; notably, the binomial name of humanity is Homo sapiens, not Homo sentiens. Considering that sentience is a common feature on Earth (virtually all animals, including extremely simple organisms like the brainless jellyfish, can respond to stimuli), and the behavior of the TradeFed's battle droids demonstrate the ability to react appropriately to their environments, there really should be no question that they are sentient (as Mr. Wong pointed out in his database, LCDR Data made this mistake when he described his cat as non-sentient).

The real question is whether or not they are sapient, which itself may or may not include free will (Asimovian robots have very real, hard and fast restrictions on their free will). Sentience and sapience are not necessarily the same thing, and the one is perfectly possible without the other; sentience without sapience is common, and there is even such a concept as a philosophical zombie, a creature that is indistinguishable from a normal human but lacks conscious experience. This is not a settled question in the galaxy far, far away, and there is evidence that there are 'droid rights activists as well as anti-'droid activists. Planet of Twilight, for example, mentioned the large Rights of Sentience Party, whose radical splinter group, the Daysong Party, "claimed that an honor guard was a form of servile humiliation and should be replaced by droids," but at the same time "objected violently to the synthdroids . . . on the grounds that synthflesh was living and had rights as well," while "Droid Rights Activists Decry Brilliant Missiles" (HoloNet News Vol. 531, No. 51, 13:4:11) mentioned the Coalition of Automaton Rights Activists, which condemned Arakyd Industries' Vindicator XM-15 'brilliant' missile on the grounds that "these are thinking, feeling sapient entities" that were "far beyond a mindless battle droid" (the radical Mechanical Liberation Front attempted to 'free' a shipment of the missiles and ironically "ended up a 25-kilometer radius of Havridam City on New Bakstre" the previous month, killing all 14 MLF radicals).

Droids are unquestionably capable of sentience; See Threepio has repeatedly responded to pain and pleasure throughout the films, and in _Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker_, he is explicitly said to have "the ability to react naturally to offensive odors," which requires that he be able to distinguish between offensive and inoffensive smells (he even suggested that Artoo Detoo needed a bath after his misadventures aboard the Invisible Hand in Revenge of the Sith). He also forgets to accommodate Luke Skywalker's stated desire not to be addressed as 'sir,' and his arm is described as having "electronic nerves and ganglia," which clearly signify that he is capable of feeling stimuli on his arm. _Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker_ includes the remark that "thoughts of escape" were "utterly alien to a mechanical," and that "the more intelligent a robot was, the more abhorrent and unthinkable the concept" (to say nothing of the fact that "had he tried to escape, built-in sensors would have detected the critical logic malfunction and melted every circuit in his brain").

Of course, it is possible that one might argue that Artoo Detoo and See Threepio are not representative of normal 'droids; in Revenge of the Sith it was said that Anakin Skywalker had "packed his creation [Threepio] with so many extra circuits and subprograms and heuristic algorithms that the droid was practically human," and Artoo had the benefit of "the bewildering variety of auxiliary tools and aftermarket behaviors Anakin had tinkered onto his starfighter's astromech, even beyond the sophisticated upgrades performed by the Royal Engineers of Naboo," to the point that he, too, was "virtually a partner in its own right." But then, there are also the examples of IG-88 and 4-LOM, bounty hunters in their own rights, to say nothing of independent information broker 8t88. Naboo society treated all higher-function 'droids like persons, and Artoo Detoo was said to have been a "decorated war hero"; New Republic law allowed for a 'droid to be manumitted (e.g., Wraith Squadron's cantankerous protocol 'droid Squeaky), and even the Empire (which pointedly considered "all sapient inhabitants of the Empire – except droids" to be full Imperial citizens according to the Imperial Sourcebook, Second Edition), was not above appointing an IG series assassin 'droid, For Atesee, to the rank of Grand Moff of the Empire, according to Prisoners of the Nikto Pirates.

[NecronLord]

This is off topic but I can't help but put in, NecronLord, nothing is without cost. The resources of the planet that is being used by the factories, resources that could be used for anything else or sold raw, are the cost.

The term cost, in that context, of course means monetary cost. Mining operatiions are part of such a factory (ref. W. Devastators)

[Mark S]

The term cost, in that context, of course means monetary cost. Mining operatiions are part of such a factory (ref. W. Devastators)

Yes. And if they weren't tearing up the planet to make droids they could be selling the resources off for monetary gain or even selling the land as realestate for such gain. The factory is costing them that money that could be made on anything other than droids for the war machine and keeping the factory running.

[Anguirus]

Which costs money why? A droid factory uses its own resources to mine raw material. Jesus christ, what you're essentailly saying is that there must be some external force funding the Earth's economy.

Not all costs are monetary. It stupefies me that you're so stuck on this. One way or another, it takes money, time, and energy in some combination to create a droid.

There's still no such thing as a free lunch, not on Earth, not anywhere.

Assuming of course, that there are such costs, which would seem unlikely

You don't think that it takes fuel to fly through space?!

Canon and elementary logic disagree with you.

As you wish - easiest to find:

RotS ICS, P24 wrote:
General Grievous's invading forces have constructed command centers and self-replicating Techno-Union factories on Utapau. These facilities create new troops, stargifhters, wheel bikes and other vehicles using local materials. If left undisturbed they will turn Utapau into yet another of the Outer Rim's fortress worlds, riddled with ugly refineries and assembly lines and trembling under the weight of ever more deadly Seperatist war machines.


Elsewhere, I can't find it right now, is the description of such factories being landed on planets. However, this is the key point. After the initial cost of the first factories, everything else comes free by stealing Utapaun minerals and energy sources. Are you seeing that?

That passage isn't anthing like what you describe. They are still USING RESOURCES TO CREATE DROIDS! Just because they steal them from someone doesn't mean they get them from thin air. Sooner or later, they would use up all the resources of a place like Utapau, and the most efficient way to use those resources is to build a massive number of dumb terminals with guns.

How can this be so difficult?

Why do they have to subjugate it totally? Just shoot anything that goes near it. Hell, we know for a fact that the invasion of Utapau was so ham-fisted that they didn't even account for Tion Medon's fighters.

Utapau's not a true factory planet, at least not yet. To use a whole planet, they must control a whole planet, in which they will of course LOSE droids.

Perhaps this 'brainbug' started with the self-replicating flying factory that has been a fan-favourite and standing part of the star wars canon for about ten years at least? Ta da!

World Devastators which are a) unique to the Imperial arsenal and b) NOT A FREE LUNCH, YOU IDIOT. They take resources from the Mon Calamari and spend time in creating war machines. If they build simpler, dumber war machines, they can make more of them faster!

Are you a moron? There are only two left at this stage, and they do so because they are brave they're the ship's pilots, they're trying to keep it flying.

It would behoove you to prove this. You are anthropomorpizing excessively. It's simpler to assume that they stayed because they were ordered to.

I'm not a moron, I'm just on-topic.

Incorrect. Polish cavalry units did engage a panzer unit successfully at least once, and on other occasions, attempted things like charging machine guns. The myth is that the poles did it all the time, not that they did it at all.
Quote:

I stand corrected.

He orders them back because their foolish actions would have gotten them killed sooner. They still did their job, they just did it from their posts.

Which does nothing whatsoever to disprove my point.

Incorrect. You are saying that because pilot and security droids remained on the bridge, this is proof of their being mindless automata.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that A BATTLE DROID HAS NEVER DISOBEYED A DIRECT ORDER. Sentient (rather, sapient) droids can, as R2 and 3PO have both done.

It's not proof that they are mindless automata. it's impossible to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt either way, because there isn't enough evidence. However, I have seen battle droids do nothing that convinces me that they are any more self-aware or intellgent than the animals we eat for food. Hence, I am not at this time morally opposed to the RotS shutdown.

Even when presented with evidence that most of those who had a chance to run did so

I mentioned that early on, and it's perfectly consistent. Unless they recieved a direct order to stay, it makes sense for them to run out of basic self-preservation.

Their behaviour was no different from that of an organic crew, and yet you're attempting to use it to argue that these droids are non-sentient

I'm using it to say that it is not evidence that the droids are sapient. Nothing they do on that bridge indicates their sapience to me. Conversely, I happen to know that Neimoidians are sapient because they have convinced me of this in other scenes.

and that their getting hacked down indicates that they didn't have the initiative to run away, as opposed to simply not having the opportunity.

They did have the initiative to run away, but they lacked the ability to disobey a direct order from Grievous. I stand by this because a battle droid has never disobeyed a direct order from a superior in any film, and this one is no exception.

They do run off the fucking bridge. What more do you want? A shakesperian B1 love story perhaps? Or would you preffer the B1s to start reading existential poetry at some point in the film?

Nah, how about understanding the sentence "I'm taking these people to Coruscant"?

There is a world between running away from danger (jelly, flatworm) and composing sonnets (human).

Anguirus, it is quite obvious that you will respond to any evidence of sentience by simply declaring that they were programmed to act that way (even when it goes against orders, eg- fleeing a dangerous situation)

Fleeing a dangerous situation is not evidence of sentience, or, as Publius has noted, sapience. Any animal can flee a dangerous situation.

So tell me, what would constitute evidence of sentience in your mind?

Evidence of sapience, to me, would be taking initiative, understanding a relatively complex conversation, participating in a friendly relationship with another sapient being, or disobeying an order. That's off the top of my head, anyway. R2 and 3PO, my constant examples of sapient droids, can and have done all these things.

If battle droids are sapient, IMO, then we haven't seen it yet. I refuse to assume that they are, because there is no good reason that they would be made that way, except in a certain poster's fantasy world where it is no easier or faster to build something simple than to build something complex.

It's their peculiar reactions, especially in RotS, that have started this debate. But honestly, I don't find much in them that an AIM bot couldn't do. They acknowledge, warn of danger, respond to stimuli, follow orders, cheer on an ally, and verbally acknowledge an ally's rudeness. That's all we're working with here. Without positive evidence that there is something going on in there, I'm not jumping to conclusions from THAT.

[Darth Wong]

So tell me, what would constitute evidence of sentience in your mind?

Evidence of sapience, to me, would be taking initiative, understanding a relatively complex conversation, participating in a friendly relationship with another sapient being, or disobeying an order. That's off the top of my head, anyway. R2 and 3PO, my constant examples of sapient droids, can and have done all these things.

All of those are required? There are plenty of humans who would not take initiative in similar situations. Mentally retarded humans cannot understand complex conversations; does this mean they are non-sapient and therefore should be treated as objects rather than people? And droids are only constrained to follow orders when the restraining bolt is on; that's why R2D2 had to ask for his restraining bolt to be removed in ANH so that he could disobey a direct order. According to your argument, the instant you put a restraining bolt on R2D2 he becomes non-sapient.

If battle droids are sapient, IMO, then we haven't seen it yet.

Sapience, despite your attempt to add extra conditions, is simply the ability to think intelligently. And the ability to think intelligently is quite easily demonstrated by the battledroid in the Battle of Geonosis which was attempting to analyze its situation when its head was bolted onto C3PO's body. They may not be too bright, but they're easily intelligent enough to qualify as sapient, unless your definition of sapience is so strict that it would also exclude people such as subnormal humans.

I refuse to assume that they are, because there is no good reason that they would be made that way, except in a certain poster's fantasy world where it is no easier or faster to build something simple than to build something complex.

Because a combat droid will be more effective if it is more intelligent! Why does this have to be spelled out? It's entirely possible that the TPM battledroids were non-sapient, but there is ample evidence that there has been significant redesign in their control hardware between TPM and AOTC, particularly in light of the fact that they can now function independently of a control ship.