What is uniquely Christian?

[CaptJodan]

That's the beauty of Why I became a Christian, unlike in the other religions Christianity still has that sublime mysteriousness of God and we as Christians are encouraged to revel in those mysteries of Faith so that we can try to understand Him better.

This is one of the more fun sentences I've seen here recently.

We revel in the unknown by keeping it unexplainable and unknown, and thus we somehow understand God/Jesus/the unknown better.

I know jack shit about quantum mechanics. I don't know how it works, or what it does, but if I sit back and do nothing...not open a book, not study how it works or if it even works, then that will bring me closer to understanding quantum mechanics according to this line of reasoning.

Isn't this just an excuse for Christians to be intellectually lazy? See, to me, this just seems to say that it requires not only faith, but pretty much BLIND faith in order to actually follow through with that. It's pretty evident, when you don't even have to TRY to explain something that makes no sense at all.

You're never going to understand something by reveling in it's mysteriousness. Unless this is really the core of Christianty (I guess a case could be made that it is). It just seems to me that when Christianity runs across anything it can't explain, it pulls out the trump card every single time without fail. "It's a miricle. God did it so we don't have to explain it. God works in mysterious ways, et al". That's not finding answers, and that's not getting closer to the truth. That's just stepping off a cliff and having faith you won't fall.

[The Guid]

Your comparison with quantum mechanics is flawed. Quantum mechanics is a theory, one that can I believe be reasoned out. Only faith brings one closer to God because there is no evidence to evaluate for God. There are no theories one can study and try and get one's head around, there is only faith.

[CaptJodan]

What's the difference in practical terms between knowing this happened, and knowing about Xenu's galactic cruiser massacre six trillion years ago?

Damn I loved Wed's South Park.

In practical terms, Christianity has had and still does have a significant impact on world history. That is why it is important to understand at least the basic doctrines and beliefs of Christians. It helps to inform your understanding of history and of current events.

Which I have no problem with. Some of us learned the basics of the Greek and Roman gods, and their beliefs in them, so I really have no trouble getting the basics of other religions, especailly when it accounts for current events. But it really doesn't differ much from knowing of Xenu as those things are also in current events (though less so, I know).

[CaptJodan]

Your comparison with quantum mechanics is flawed. Quantum mechanics is a theory, one that can I believe be reasoned out. Only faith brings one closer to God because there is no evidence to evaluate for God. There are no theories one can study and try and get one's head around, there is only faith.

Which only goes to show how this type of faith is blind faith only.

Though I suppose you're right. Since this blind faith is what Christians want, then a lack of, or a rejection of real knowledge is what they strive for. That certainly is telling.

[Molyneux]

Wait...so if someone had actually braved the Roman soldiers and taken Jesus down from the cross, or just stopped the crucifixion from taking place at all...they would have been doing a bad thing, according to Christian doctrine?

Then Christ could've been Martyred someother way, though we can't say for certain. The point is that there was a need to fulfill the old covwnant of the Hebrew Scriptures and create a new and everlasting covenant in which the old sins of Adam will be washed away through the redemptive sacrifice of Christ.

EDIT Though I should point out that Christ by being the virtue of Being God the Son has both the dine and the Humanity even in Heaven after death becuase Christ is the perfect embodiment of God's love for Humanity and that love is perfectly shown to us in the image of Christ. The Holy Spirit is that guiding love that points in the direction of that perfect embodiment of God's love which is Christ.

How the heck does the hideous torture and death of a (supposedly) innocent man fulfill the covenant between God and the Hebrews? Do you even know what that covenant entails?

[Nephtys]

What's the difference in practical terms between knowing this happened, and knowing about Xenu's galactic cruiser massacre six trillion years ago?

In practical terms, Christianity has had and still does have a significant impact on world history. That is why it is important to understand at least the basic doctrines and beliefs of Christians. It helps to inform your understanding of history and of current events.

Impact on world history is irrelevant to answering my question. Technically, the Nazis, Communism, the Roman Empire, Slaughter of the Indians, et cetera have had and still have a lasting impact on history. Understanding that one religion is at best, a minor factor in how the world works, especially with secularization. And I'm not talking the beliefs of them. I thought the question was on uniqueness and my question of how you consider the validity of Christianity's claim to be different?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Christianity has nothing in particular unique, seeing as not only Mithraism but the obscure Sabaean sect of Iraq and Iran held similar beliefs about the nature of redemption. The Sabaeans, who still exist in a few tens of thousands, are the descendants of Jews who adopted a Christian-like faith, which interestingly gives John the Baptist the role of Jesus. They only allowed Jews to join, and so their growth was stunted when they were expelled to Mesopotamia following the second Jewish Revolt in the age of the Fourth Good Emperors.

As an interesting aside, Islam technically fits the definition of being a Christian heresy.

[Surlethe]

As an interesting aside, Islam technically fits the definition of being a Christian heresy.

I've seen that browsing books in my Church's library; it gives Islam as a heresy along with other contextually better-known ones such as Gnosticism.

[The Guid]

Your comparison with quantum mechanics is flawed. Quantum mechanics is a theory, one that can I believe be reasoned out. Only faith brings one closer to God because there is no evidence to evaluate for God. There are no theories one can study and try and get one's head around, there is only faith.

Which only goes to show how this type of faith is blind faith only.

Though I suppose you're right. Since this blind faith is what Christians want, then a lack of, or a rejection of real knowledge is what they strive for. That certainly is telling.

Why does one need to reject "real knowledge" to have a faith? All I stated was that there was no way to evaluate God and that one can not reach him based purely on reason. Where did I state that I would "reject" "real knowledge".

[wolveraptor]

This thread is sort've becoming derailed on the subject of whether Christianity makes sense.

To contribute to that derailment: if Jesus is God, why is he bothered by pain? He's fucking omnipotent. Why can't he magick the pain away?

It's like if I cut myself and screamed, "LOOK WHAT I HAVE DONE FOR YOU!! ARE YOU NOT IMPRESSED BY MY SACRIFICE! I TOOK YOUR SINS FOR YOU!"

Nobody asked me to cut myself for you, and I didn't ask for Jesus to die for me, and I'd have preferred it if he didn't. He probably wasn't a bad guy for the times. Besides, his death doesn't appear to do anything for Christians. Are they less likely to sin than other people? No, not really. Are they psychologically more healthy because they're "washed of sin"? No. So what exactly did Jesus' death do in the real world? Why can't god just cleanse us of sins without killing people?

[CaptJodan]

Why does one need to reject "real knowledge" to have a faith? All I stated was that there was no way to evaluate God and that one can not reach him based purely on reason. Where did I state that I would "reject" "real knowledge".

One tends to trump another, and in religion, the one that generally takes precidence is faith over...say...science, or even theories about how X came to be.

The Bible makes several statements about the nature of things, which are, of course, avaliable here. The infamous storehouses. Now at that time, God's followers didn't go around trying to prove God wrong about the many statement of the Earth that he was claiming. In effect, they would take the Bible's word about what God said in these instances as fact. They dismissed physical proof to the contrary, didn't look for the scientific truth, and relied on their faith that the Bible was absolute truth. Even after it was proved that the Earth was in fact not flat, it took a while for everyone to believe it. This shows that it is sure as hell possible to hold faith over scientific truth.

Now, I was responding to Solo's post, so I'm not sure if you're talking about broad faith in God, or in his specific example of Jesus, and faith that he was born of two natures. In effect, I don't know what you're arguing. I was also noting that Solo said "We don't know how it happens, all we understand is that it DID happen". We must understand this as a matter of faith. It does not, however, discount the possiblity of being able to "create theories one can study and try to get one's head around", as you put it.

For example, I can propose the theory that Jesus had a multi-personality disorder of some kind. I can put forth the theory that Jesus never said X or Y, and that this story is allegory. I can even say the Bible is flat wrong, and that none of it ever happened. Some of those go against faith, but some Christians take the Bible as allegory, and still can hold their faith on God himself.

A great deal of money is spent trying to find evidence of God by many of the churches, through whatever means (expeditions, digs, etc). Finding scientific proof of God may not be your cup of tea, but it seems to be something that some in religion feel is necessary (ID anyone?).

I'm not sure where all that above was going, but here's my overall point. It may turn out that the existence of God cannot be proven by rational means (big surprise there). But why should that stop people from trying? How is it better to just sit back and say "Yup, it's a miricle." rather than trying to find the answers as to why?

[CaptJodan]

This thread is sort've becoming derailed on the subject of whether Christianity makes sense.

To contribute to that derailment: if Jesus is God, why is he bothered by pain? He's fucking omnipotent. Why can't he magick the pain away?

Wouldn't seem like such a noble sacrifice then, would it? (Of course, there could be another response to this, but even I won't go there)

It's like if I cut myself and screamed, "LOOK WHAT I HAVE DONE FOR YOU!! ARE YOU NOT IMPRESSED BY MY SACRIFICE! I TOOK YOUR SINS FOR YOU!"

Nobody asked me to cut myself for you, and I didn't ask for Jesus to die for me, and I'd have preferred it if he didn't. He probably wasn't a bad guy for the times. Besides, his death doesn't appear to do anything for Christians. Are they less likely to sin than other people? No, not really. Are they psychologically more healthy because they're "washed of sin"? No. So what exactly did Jesus' death do in the real world? Why can't god just cleanse us of sins without killing people?

Apparently he died so that when the end comes, those that believe in him (to varying degrees, depending on your religion) will be washed of sin and be admitted into Heaven. It does nothing for the real world, because...you know, the real world really doesn't matter.

I wish I had an answer for you on that second part. How come a mother of a child who was murdered by some maniac can look to the accused and say "I forgive you" with no strings attached, but God can't do it without a huge ass plan that invovles deaths? Sorry, I can't help you there.

[Surlethe]

This thread is sort've becoming derailed on the subject of whether Christianity makes sense.

Christianity requires faith; ergo, it doesn't make sense. End of story.

[chaoschristian]

Perhaps I'm speaking heresy here, and more knowing Christians will point it out if that's that case, but my understanding is that Christ's sacrifice redeemed and redeems ALL of humanity throughout all of time - from the beginning to the end, and that it takes an active choice of rejecting God that separates one from God. Furthermore its not clear, at least to me, when one makes that final choice, so that a rejection of God while living could have an opportunity for redemption after death when one confronts the true fully revealed glory of God.

I've always found that this particular interpretation of Christianity shifts the emphasis away from running around the four corners of the Earth in order to hit people over the head with the Bible, to a strategy of disciples actually disciplining themselves (imagine!) to 'bear witness' by living and leading a 'Christ-like' life. That salvation, not being something a human could ever effect, was entirely in God's court and that we were not to muck around with attempting to determine or discern who was saved and not saved or attempting to determine or discern or actively bring about the end times. It seems to me that Jesus gave the Apostles a pretty good smack down when it came to those last things and basically said bugger off with that.

If true, then is that not unique compared to contemporaneous religions?

If not, then I'm mistaken and perhaps there is nothing 'unique' to Christianity that cannot be claimed outside of the faith.

Because within the faith, one could always claim that Christianity's uniqueness lies in the fact that it’s the only true/right/correct path to God and salvation.

But arguing from tautologies doesn't make for good conversation then now does it?

[General Zod]

Because within the faith, one could always claim that Christianity's uniqueness lies in the fact that it’s the only true/right/correct path to God and salvation.

Just like how Islam claims to be the one true path to God and salvation?

[chaoschristian]

Just like how Islam claims to be the one true path to God and salvation?

Exactly - it doesn't get you very far does it?

[Stark]

Give a poor scholar a hint - how was the crucifixion a 'sacrifice' at all? If God and Jesus are the same, who lost what? God is still god, and Jesus came back. So what's the big deal? Leaving aside that the 'sin' is a ridiculous concept to start with, why would a premeditated fake death absolve it? I was under the impression the the crucifixtion was the plan from the start, so what's so great about the noble sacrifice if he planned the whole thing and didn't really die anyway?

[Surlethe]

Give a poor scholar a hint - how was the crucifixion a 'sacrifice' at all? If God and Jesus are the same, who lost what? God is still god, and Jesus came back. So what's the big deal? Leaving aside that the 'sin' is a ridiculous concept to start with, why would a premeditated fake death absolve it? I was under the impression the the crucifixtion was the plan from the start, so what's so great about the noble sacrifice if he planned the whole thing and didn't really die anyway?

The idea -- at least as I understand it -- is for Jesus, who was initially sinless to suddenly become as sinful as possible: to take every possible sin into himself, as though he had committed every sin in the history of the world. So he comes to earth, and does that; and then, he's tortured and killed as a proxy for all humans. At this point, Jesus is dead; with him, all the sins died. Now, Jesus comes back from the dead, but all the sins stay dead; and the point is, because Jesus is alive, we can give our sins to him, so they die with him on the cross, and stay dead as we go with the live Jesus to heaven.

At least, that's how I understand it.

[Stark]

That sounds like bad fantasy plot, but I don't understand how this is a 'sacrifice'. It sounds more like the 'purge the universe of sin manueveur' - nothing is lost. Jesus dies, then comes back. Just like in bad television. So, how is it a sacrifice, and in what sense did he die, if he just came back next episode? Surely he could do that every day before tea and not break a sweat?

[Anguirus]

but my understanding is that Christ's sacrifice redeemed and redeems ALL of humanity throughout all of time - from the beginning to the end, and that it takes an active choice of rejecting God that separates one from God.

Universal redemption is found in some forms of Buddhism. It's a different sort, though, and it's really just the weirder ones.

In True Way Buddhism it is my understanding (and I'm not an expert) that all on have to do is recite a Buddha's name to gain entry to the Promised Land. This is considered the easiest and therefore best action to enter it, because the Buddha has already done the spiritual "heavy lifting" as it were. Everthing else is irrelevant. (This is all based on one passage in which the Buddha in question said that reciting his name would get you into the Promised Land.)

The more extreme disciples of this eventually rejected even the need to put effort and meditation into the recital (all you need is to have faith in him and say it) and at the most extreme, rejecting *faith itself* so that all anyone has to have done is HEARD of him, or said his name once with no sincereity, to make the Promised Land. Hell keep his promise, to the letter. These extreme adherents then literally went out to spread the word, not demanding anything but that the individual hear about their doctrine and, in the mere act of listening, be saved.

Other schools of Buddhism eventually reacted, discrediting the extreme ones. I don't think True Way Buddhism has that much of a following today.

So it's not the same thing, but it made me think of it.

[Lord of the Farce]

Hell, for a case of a deity making a real self sacrifice for the benefit of humanity, just look at Prometheus.

As punishment for going against Zeus and giving humans many gifts - including the "Gift of Fire", which is basically equivalent to the biblical "Fruit of Knowledge" - Prometheus was hung out to freeze on the side of a mountain, and each day his body was torn open and his liver eaten by Zeus's eagle, only to have his immortal body regenerate night after night.

[Battlehymn Republic]

So not only is one God three people(Trinity), there's two discrete Jesuses. Or Jesi. How people beleive this stuff despite the blatant contortionism...

Bingo, baby. That's why dem Monophysites and Arianists and Hussites and whoever-have-ye were all killing each other back in the olden days.

Because within the faith, one could always claim that Christianity's uniqueness lies in the fact that it’s the only true/right/correct path to God and salvation.

Just like how Islam claims to be the one true path to God and salvation?

What about the dhmmi? Don't they get a ride to the Muslim version of Limbo?

Hell, for a case of a deity making a real self sacrifice for the benefit of humanity, just look at Prometheus.

As punishment for going against Zeus and giving humans many gifts - including the "Gift of Fire", which is basically equivalent to the biblical "Fruit of Knowledge" - Prometheus was hung out to freeze on the side of a mountain, and each day his body was torn open and his liver eaten by Zeus's eagle, only to have his immortal body regenerate night after night.

Yeah, but Hercules went along and kicked the eagle's ass. Jesus had to raise himself from the dead.

[The Guid]

That sounds like bad fantasy plot, but I don't understand how this is a 'sacrifice'. It sounds more like the 'purge the universe of sin manueveur' - nothing is lost. Jesus dies, then comes back. Just like in bad television. So, how is it a sacrifice, and in what sense did he die, if he just came back next episode? Surely he could do that every day before tea and not break a sweat?

If I could promise you that you wouldn't die but that you would go through intense emotional and physical pain would you see it as a sacrifice?

[wolveraptor]

^It doesn't make sense that a mere planet's worth of sins could cause a god such great harm. He's a god, and purposely allowing himself to experience pain when he doesn't have to isn't noble or self-sacrificial. It's just dumb.

Jesus had to raise himself from the dead.

Not too hard a task for an all-powerful deity. Much harder for a being with limits, like the titan Prometheus.

[SirNitram]

If I could promise you that you wouldn't die but that you would go through intense emotional and physical pain would you see it as a sacrifice?

Personally, I'd be wondering why the hell someone has to suffer immensely when the being in question is all fucking powerful.