Would you give up control of your society for "paradise

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I'm reminded of Aesop's` fable about the house dog and the wolf. The moral is this: lean freedom is better than fat slavery. These aliens punish every crime with execution and have complete control over our workings, besides taking away any means we might have of defending ourselves from their tyranny. Besides, if they can do it, then in a few thousand or million years, so can we. All their gifts are incredible, but there is no such thing as a free lunch.

[Surlethe]

I really don't see why people object to this; the OP specifies punishments are for crimes more serious than pick-pocketing, and I don't see how that detracts from freedom in any way whatsoever; if anything, it increases personal options by discouraging crime and thus allowing more freedom of movement without fear of criminal activity.

[Zero]

I really don't see why people object to this; the OP specifies punishments are for crimes more serious than pick-pocketing, and I don't see how that detracts from freedom in any way whatsoever; if anything, it increases personal options by discouraging crime and thus allowing more freedom of movement without fear of criminal activity.

Because we'd lose our ability to govern ourselves as a species, of course.

[Surlethe]

Because we'd lose our ability to govern ourselves as a species, of course.

So? The purpose of government is to ensure the welfare of the citizenry. It sounds like this guy is doing a pretty damned good job of it; far better than current human governments, actually.

[Zero]

Because we'd lose our ability to govern ourselves as a species, of course.

So? The purpose of government is to ensure the welfare of the citizenry. It sounds like this guy is doing a pretty damned good job of it; far better than current human governments, actually.

Certainly, but by giving up control to them, we lose all ability to improve as a species. We'd be in an eternal state of perfect stagnation. To give in to these aliens is to admit that we're incompetent for our own governance, and that our abilities as a species are vastly inferior to theirs. It's an admission that we don't DESERVE the right to govern.

True as all of this is, I don't plan to give up on humanity quite so easily.

[Surlethe]

Certainly, but by giving up control to them, we lose all ability to improve as a species. We'd be in an eternal state of perfect stagnation.

Why is that a bad thing?

To give in to these aliens is to admit that we're incompetent for our own governance, and that our abilities as a species are vastly inferior to theirs.

Aren't they?

It's an admission that we don't DESERVE the right to govern.

Not so; it's an admission that alien can do it so much better than us, there's really no point in us doing it.

True as all of this is, I don't plan to give up on humanity quite so easily.

How is this giving up on humanity? We're ushering humanity into a golden age of peace, which bodes ill only for criminals; why is that bad?

[Zero]

Then I guess its just because revolution against their system, were it to be deemed unfair by humans, would be a crime. How the hell ISN'T that losing freedom, if when you try to rebel, you lose your mind, which, in the end, is all you have.

[Surlethe]

Then I guess its just because revolution against their system, were it to be deemed unfair by humans, would be a crime. How the hell ISN'T that losing freedom, if when you try to rebel, you lose your mind, which, in the end, is all you have.

How is that system unfair? It would be just like committing treason against the United States: if you think the US government is unfair, and you rebel against it, you lose your freedom; thus, the US is inherently evil. Right?

[wolveraptor]

They do a much better job of protecting freedom than we will in millions of years, if we ever reach that level of perfection.

[Zero]

Then I guess its just because revolution against their system, were it to be deemed unfair by humans, would be a crime. How the hell ISN'T that losing freedom, if when you try to rebel, you lose your mind, which, in the end, is all you have.

How is that system unfair? It would be just like committing treason against the United States: if you think the US government is unfair, and you rebel against it, you lose your freedom; thus, the US is inherently evil. Right?

I didn't say it wasn't inherantly evil. The difference is that in the US, if it's an oppressive state, there's a chance of rebellion. With these aliens, there is no chance. Even in the US, I can talk about overthrowing the system without having my mind erased. The two situations aren't the same. One is an eternal inescapable trap, whereas the other is merely a temporary nation trying to make itself last longer.

[The Grim Squeaker]

The two situations aren't the same. One is an eternal inescapable trap, whereas the other is merely a temporary nation trying to make itself last longer.

Did you miss the part about them allowing anyone who disagrees with the new world to leave to a copy of earth without their interference, Rape, aids and all?
Also anyone who stays on earth for the express and sole reason of trying to rebel agaisnt it's benefactors (HL2 pun not meant) is a criminal, if given the opportuntiy to leave at any time without injury or harm.

[Ar-Adunakhor]

The two situations aren't the same. One is an eternal inescapable trap, whereas the other is merely a temporary nation trying to make itself last longer.

Did you miss the part about them allowing anyone who disagrees with the new world to leave to a copy of earth without their interference, Rape, aids and all?
Also anyone who stays on earth for the express and sole reason of trying to rebel agaisnt it's benefactors (HL2 pun not meant) is a criminal, if given the opportuntiy to leave at any time without injury or harm.

And you run right back into the fact that you are either:

A: Going to be mindwiped if you try to do anything the hopefully benevolent overlords consider wrong. This, of course, includes not doing anything they tell you to do, or failing to do something they tell you to. There would be no chance for you or your children of taking back the freedoms that you give up by staying.

-or-

B: Placing yourself in the hopefully benevolent overlord's hands to be whisked off to some place they tell you is where you want to go, and where nobody will ever hear from you again.

Overlord: Don't want to be in this paradise? No problem we have exactly what you want right down the road. Just climb aboard this railroad car... trust us....

This is sounding more and more like that Twilight Zone episode.


Based upon the current choices, I would just settle down and say, "No Comrade, refusing these great gifts would be doubleplus ungood!" After all, fighting a battle you cannot win is sheer folly. Always better to live to fight (or perhaps merely be lifted from under their control when they get into a war with some other near-omnipotent race) another day.

However, if I had the means I would convey *myself* to, say, the past or a distant planet they could not reach, where I would encourage everyone else who chose to do the same to begin developing new tech at a lightning pace, lest they find us before we are prepared. Alas, that was not an option. Oh well.

[NecronLord]

Did you miss the part about them allowing anyone who disagrees with the new world to leave to a copy of earth without their interference, Rape, aids and all?

As Wong said, your scenario is flawed. They clearly have the ability to follow you, or just eat you when you get on the ship. Make leaving an act of will, the Time Lords, or something to that effect, and you'll have an actual dilemma.

[Surlethe]

Then I guess its just because revolution against their system, were it to be deemed unfair by humans, would be a crime. How the hell ISN'T that losing freedom, if when you try to rebel, you lose your mind, which, in the end, is all you have.

How is that system unfair? It would be just like committing treason against the United States: if you think the US government is unfair, and you rebel against it, you lose your freedom; thus, the US is inherently evil. Right?

I didn't say it wasn't inherantly evil. The difference is that in the US, if it's an oppressive state, there's a chance of rebellion. With these aliens, there is no chance. Even in the US, I can talk about overthrowing the system without having my mind erased. The two situations aren't the same. One is an eternal inescapable trap, whereas the other is merely a temporary nation trying to make itself last longer.

And, again, there's no need for rebellion: these aliens are creating a paradise for humanity.

[Ghost Rider]

Wong pointed out a interesting point about this in direct relation to heaven, and ultimately it is the funniest bit. While the aliens are claiming many things, the society is nice...and honestly when they claim that they'll return you...pfft, you really don't know, and fuck if they have to obey any such rule.

The point I object is aside from we have to believe they are benevolent...they also:

However it will govern every human affair, using it's vast knowledge,pre-cognition and power to ensure a golden age until the heat death of the sun makes it relocate earth

So, literally you do become a pet.

[wolveraptor]

So? You're a very, very well treated pet.

It seems that most people are still obsessing about whether they are to be trusted or not, which is utterly irrelevant.

[Ghost Rider]

So? You're a very, very well treated pet.

It seems that most people are still obsessing about whether they are to be trusted or not, which is utterly irrelevant.

The problem of the entire scenario is you have no choice whatsoever, and the presentor wants to give the false illusion of a choice, thus the argument of why should we trust them either way.

Literally they can do whatever they want, and the point of trust is the same that a pet goldfish has to it's owner. It can't do a damn thing and has to completely and totally obey whatever whim the thing wants to to do.

Thus any blame is not on the people debating the ideas of choice, rather the presentation offers such a pointless illusion when in fact there is no dilemma.

[Yogi]

The people who whine and complain about the aliens taking away our precious freedom, are people who have plenty of food in their stomachs, a solid roof over their heads, and adequate heating in the winter. They do NOT have to slave for hours every say just to provide for their families, live in fear of hooligans and warlords, have to choose between paying for food or heat, and watch their children die because of inadequate medical care.

For a huge number of people in the world, such discussions of "freedom" and "choice" are academic. They never had much of a choice to begin with, and every day is not a struggle for the betterment of humanity, but simply to survive.

For the 852 milliion people going hungry all over the world, I help roll out the welcome mat for our new alien overlords.

[Ou des]

Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

But about this personality scrubbing; does delete all your memories and make you into a new person, or just change how you react making you not want to commit crimes?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

But about this personality scrubbing; does delete all your memories and make you into a new person, or just change how you react making you not want to commit crimes?

It rewires any memories that caused the crime (So a family dinner will stay, but your dads memory may be changed if he talked constantly about "those people" causing you to rape and torture them for causing his heart attack in the middle of a KKK meeting for example)

[Ou des]

That seems pretty benign, and unobjectionable. If all it's doing is removing the desire to commit the crime then it wouldn't be like actually dying; you'd be basically the same person but not a criminal.

[Zero]

How is that system unfair? It would be just like committing treason against the United States: if you think the US government is unfair, and you rebel against it, you lose your freedom; thus, the US is inherently evil. Right?

I didn't say it wasn't inherantly evil. The difference is that in the US, if it's an oppressive state, there's a chance of rebellion. With these aliens, there is no chance. Even in the US, I can talk about overthrowing the system without having my mind erased. The two situations aren't the same. One is an eternal inescapable trap, whereas the other is merely a temporary nation trying to make itself last longer.

And, again, there's no need for rebellion: these aliens are creating a paradise for humanity.

Actually, they're creating a paradise for themselves to house humanity. Our own thoughts and ideas don't appear to have anything to do with the way they structure their society. We have no idea what notion of paradise they may have.

[Surlethe]

Actually, they're creating a paradise for themselves to house humanity. Our own thoughts and ideas don't appear to have anything to do with the way they structure their society. We have no idea what notion of paradise they may have.

The way the being structures human society may have nothing to do with our thoughts and ideas, but his idea of paradise damn well coincides with mine: no crime; all diseases cured; perpetual motion; advanced technology. What downsides are there? Ah, yes; the freedom not to commit crimes. Who the hell wanted to commit crime in the first place?

[Noble Ire]

I would not submit.

It is my belief that Utopia is quite impossible, humans will always find a way to screw it up, assuming of course the the being offering it doesn't reveal some alterior motive anyways. This perfect society would collapse eventually, because humans do not strive for perfection; they strive for freedom.

Flawed as our world is, it provides both freedom and means to preserve it (well, most of the planet at least.) To completely destroy human society, wars, petty squables, excess, and all, like this would simply ruin millienia of natural progress. And even if the society manages to survive, we would still lack true freedom, and eventually, we wouldn't want it anymore. We would no longer be humans at all.

[wolveraptor]

The problem of the entire scenario is you have no choice whatsoever, and the presentor wants to give the false illusion of a choice, thus the argument of why should we trust them either way.

Literally they can do whatever they want, and the point of trust is the same that a pet goldfish has to it's owner. It can't do a damn thing and has to completely and totally obey whatever whim the thing wants to to do.

Thus any blame is not on the people debating the ideas of choice, rather the presentation offers such a pointless illusion when in fact there is no dilemma.

Well, I guess a better OP question would be, would you like this scenario, rather than would you submit, since you obviously have no choice. However, for the purposes of the intellectual excercise, they are completely and totally honest. Who knows: their alien psychology might not allow them to lie.

I would not submit.

You know damn well you don't have a choice when you're facing near-omnipotent alien beings.

It is my belief that Utopia is quite impossible, humans will always find a way to screw it up

No one ever claimed that you would be eternally happy. This isn't heaven, and the aliens can't do everything. But just because we can't achieve the penultimate Utopia, doesn't mean we can't try our damndest. Removing disease and crime would be a good first step, don't you think?

assuming of course the the being offering it doesn't reveal some alterior motive anyways.

That assumption was part of the OP. That means that for the purpose of this thread, it's true.

This perfect society would collapse eventually, because humans do not strive for perfection; they strive for freedom.

How does this society limit freedom? Like Surlethe pointed out: without crime, we have much, much more freedom to do whatever we want. Class boundaries would erode, as everyone would have access to the same information, the same luxuries.

Flawed as our world is, it provides both freedom and means to preserve it (well, most of the planet at least.)

This new world provides perfect freedom, with no evil and disease inhibiting it, and has a perfect way of preserving it for all of the planet.

To completely destroy human society, wars, petty squables, excess, and all, like this would simply ruin millienia of natural progress.

This new society is hundreds of millions of years ahead of us, and is basically the pinnacle of what we would hope to achieve. We don't brush away progress: we simply skip the long and arduous journey to get to it.

And even if the society manages to survive, we would still lack true freedom, and eventually, we wouldn't want it anymore. We would no longer be humans at all.

How would we lack true freedom? What more freedom could you want? Unlimited energy, no crime, no poverty, no disease, no war. Who the flying fuck would ever stop wanting that? And even then, they can be transported off to that new Earth anyways.
What is it about ultimate freedom that doesn't make us human?