Help me out with a rebuttal to ID idiot

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kheegster
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Help me out with a rebuttal to ID idiot

Post by kheegster »

Found this letter on a Malaysian news website, and it pissed me off so much I'm having difficulty articulating my thoughts. So I'd appreciate any points which might help me, or to point out any mistakes I might have made. I will have to compile everything into a letter before I can make the reply.
I am fascinated by the discussion on evolution, especially between SK Wong (Muddling and mangling neo-Darwinism) and Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib (Darwinism heading towards oblivion).

As one who is trained in mathematical research, I know that a theory must begin with some assumptions that are not subject to proof. Changing these assumptions will yield different conclusions. For example, the assumptions of Euclidean (or Newtonian) geometry yield "flat" space. This was the prevailing notion of the universe until Einstein used different assumptions and derived a "curved" space-time.

Similarly, a scientific theory starts with some assumptions (often framed in mathematical terms) which are not capable of direct proof. No theory can come out of zero assumptions. The crucial difference between mathematics and science is that mathematicians are happy to study and allow various competing "theoretical" models to flourish in their minds whereas scientists must view each theory through the lens of reality to determine which accords with the real world.
No real problems here.

Deciding which scientific theory to accept or reject should be straightforward. It should be purely a matter of whether the observations agree with the conclusions. Unfortunately scientists in the scientific establishment have taken upon themselves to decide which assumptions are permissible and which are not (ie, "non-scientific").
Considering that most of these 'assumptions' are beyond the realm of understanding of the average layperson, who else better to decide on this than scientists? Take for example the assumption of special relativity that the speed of light is constant. This might sound simple, but would a layperson be in a position to judge between this postulate compared with that of, say, the (now-discredited) theory of the luminiferous ether from the evidence of interferometric experiments (does the average layperson even know what interferometry is?)?
In the matter of the origin of the universe (and the development of living organisms), some scientists have succumbed to their own religious (or, rather, anti-religious) preferences by tacitly incorporating an assumption (unprovable) that there is no intelligent designer (or God).
Science is not religious or anti-religious. Science is areligious, so it neither requires the existence of God nor the non-existence of God to function. This is a fallacy often made by religious fundamentalists: if there is no mention of religion in something (be it a novel, music or art), then it must be anti-religious. Is it better then for a doctor to assume that God exists, and God will heal his patients? Or to assume that God doesn't exist, thus he must do all with his knowledge to heal his patients?
With their postmodern bias of unbelief, such scientists have ceased to be open enquirers of the truth. They oppose the teaching of Intelligent Design Theory, proclaiming it to be non-scientific and unverifiable. Surely, science should be verifying whether the conclusions of the theory fit the facts. You don’t try to verify the postulates directly.
This is a nonsensical statement. The theories of relativity depend on the assumption that the speed of light is constant, which has been verified experimentally thousands of times. Electromagnetic theory assumes that there are no such thing as magnetic monopoles, and to-date no magnetic monopoles have been observed. Scientists oppose ID because ID is NOT science: it is not falsifiable...something can be said to be scientific only if there is some finding or experiment which would destroy it. ID is not falsifiable in this way, as it is dependent on the fact that some biological findings are currently unexplainable; but when theories arise which can explain these findings, ID would just move on to other findings which are currently unexplainable.

In any case, calls to 'teach the controversy' are out of place, as a quick survey of the SPM (i.e. Malaysian high school) science syllabus reveals this: the latest discoveries in physics covered was the 1912 Bohr model of the atom; for chemistry, most of the topics discussed were well-known by the early part of the 20th century as well; while the biology syllabus includes some material about the structure of the DNA and genetics which were well-established by the 1960s. In other words, there should be no controversies being taught to secondary school students, only well-established knowledge. In any case, if something which is as non-scientific as ID is to be taught in science classes, then should Darwin's theories be taught in madrasah's and church sunday schools as well?
Has anyone actually seen a postulated nuclear particle with his own eyes? Is it a round ball? Yet these occasionally squeamish scientists insist that we cannot postulate an "Intelligent Designer". They’ll probably demand that this postulated Designer appear in front of them but even then; they may still claim it’s an illusion!
Nuclear particles are in direct consequence of findings in chemistry and physics, and is directly verifiable by experiments even though it cannot be perceived by the human eye. Indeed, large swathes of modern technology cannot exist without the assumption of that nuclear particles exist. Science has moved beyond the realm of direct human sensation since the Renaissance, perhaps the writer should move beyond it as well.

Apart from perception, there are other things which must be established in order for something to conform to reality. As alluded in my reply, one of these is that it must be able to influence, and be influenced by other parts of reality. Thus, if God appeared before my eyes and struck me with lightning, I would be forced to either accept His existence or question my own sanity.
In accordance with Charles Darwin, establishment scientists see no fundamental distinction between macro-evolution and micro-evolution. The former is disputed by many scientists though the latter is accepted by most. Gregor Mendel, known as the "father of modern genetics", rejected macro-evolution. I’m not discounting all of evolutionary theory but specifically macro-evolution including that which links man to the primates.
This is because there are NO fundamental distinctions which are not arbitrary. Few people would doubt that dogs are domesticated from wolves, but nevertheless at this point in time they are generally regarded as distinct species, and are generally incapable of inter-breeding. Mendel is indeed regarded as the father of modern genetics, however he lived in the late-19th centuries, decades before the discoveries of DNA and modern molecular biology. Your rejection of the link man and primates betrays that your concerns with evolutionary theory is not of a scientific nature, but is thoroughly religious.
Many counter-arguments to macro-evolution have been developed by various scientists, for example those based on observations indicating a loss of genetic information rather than greater diversity. A recent discovery of a cell’s ability to recover correct genetic information despite parents with flawed genes also casts doubts on evolution theory.
Doubts in established theories occur all the time, however large numbers of extremely major problems need to be established before the theory is in serious trouble. In spite of all these so-called 'counter-arguments', they have not been well-established to an extent to convince biologists that evolution is in doubt. In any case, it's a misconception to regard evolution as something set in stone; it is in fact constantly changing to take into account new discoveries and information.
Scientists are presumed to be open-minded yet though macro-evolution is still unsubstantiated they pronounce it as the established truth and presume to bar all teaching of alternative theories from the classroom. This is not free enquiry but an imposition of their postmodern ethos that there is no God, no spirit realm, and only the material world exists.

They discount, a priori, any possibility that a spiritual being can manifest itself through empirically verifiable activities in the material realm. Some people testify to being healed of terminal cancers; their doctors have no explanation, and yet the scientists, under an a priori assumption that there is no God, excludes the possibility of miracles (either an accelerated operation of the scientific laws or their suspension).
Macro-evolution is as by far the best explanation for observed phenomena in biology, even though it might not be perfect in its details. That is the normal state of scientific theories, which seek to attain the best description of nature through the scientific method. Anyone who lay claims to absolute truth is not talking about science. Scientists do not attempt to bar discussions on God or the spirit realm in philosophy, theology or religious classes; they do not belong in science classes simply because they are not, by definition, science.

A scientist would not discount the possibility of miracles occurring, just that there is no way to systematically study such phenomena to establish it in a scientific manner (or rather, all such attempts have failed). Rather, the burden is on the believers of miracles to prove that the occurence of miracles are beyond the realms of probability and statistics.
A good scientist must be open-minded, open to every possibility. In the evaluation of the theories of intelligent design vs. macro-evolution, postmodern scientists have, by and large, failed this test. Indeed, by stipulating what can be a scientific assumption and what cannot be one, they are playing God.

As one who believes that the universe is not an accident (the probabilities weigh against it), I believe it is a matter of time before macro-evolution will be nailed down in the coffin by an ever-increasing preponderance of evidences now trickling in. Some might prefer to wait all night for the sun to rise but do we have that much time before we believe?
See earlier discussion on the falsifiability of scientific postulates. The burden is on the writer and others of his ilk to prove their beliefs in a scientific manner, not on scientists to disprove them.
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wolveraptor
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Post by wolveraptor »

Notice how he cites no specific instances of said "miracles", nor any sources for these "probabilities" against the universe not being created.

Ask him why he expects scientists to disprove the existance of god before discounting it from their hypotheses. Proving a negative is thoroughly impossible. Can he prove that aliens aren't the ones actually typing this sentence, and that I have been brainwashed by a pink leprechaun on a pogo stick eating bison balls?
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

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Post by defanatic »

Haha. He talks about miracles. What a nut... Um...

He says that people heal from cancers etc.

How is this 'divine intervention'? A random number of lab rats will heal spontaneously from a cancer. Does this mean that God loves this lab rat, but not that one?
>>Your head hurts.

>>Quaff painkillers

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Post by kheegster »

My reply:
Dear Editor,

I refer to Stefen Tan's letter regarding the debate on scientists and religionists. Despite portraying himself as someone with scientific credentials (assuming mathematics is considered as a science, which is highly debatable), he nevertheless betrays a breathtaking ignorance on the scientific method.

He begins by claiming that scientists have no right to decide which postulates (i.e. assumptions) in science are permissible, on the basis that postulates are not testable. While this might be true to a certain extent in mathematics, postulates in science are patently testable once one accepts the existence of an external reality. Einstein's theory of special relativity assumes that the speed of light is constant, and that nothing can exceed it, an assumption which has been proven countless times through experiments. Similarly, Maxwell's electromagnetic theory assumes that magnetic monopoles do not exist, and indeed such objects have never been observed in nature. If a postulate turns out to be false, then the theory needs to be revised. And if scientists are not the right people to decide which scientific assumptions are acceptable, perhaps an imam or church pastor is more qualified to do so?

Like many religious fundamentalists, he also makes the fallacy of mistaking something which is non-religious as being anti-religious. Science is completely impartial with regards to religious belief, and scientists do not make assumptions regarding the existence or non-existence of God, Allah, Krishna or the Jade Emperor while carrying out scientific work. This is the reason that scientists can work together even if they share different creeds and beliefs. It is, moreover, not the fault of scientists if their findings are contrary to certain religious beliefs; perhaps these people should blame their religion for not comforming to reality instead.

He castigates scientists for opposing the teaching of Intelligent Design (ID) Theory, which is not science as it cannot be falsified. Falsifiability is one of the cornerstones of any scientific theory, i.e. there must exist counter-examples which will disprove a theory. For example, as mentioned earlier, the theory of relativity will be disproved if objects moving faster than the speed of light are discovered. ID argues that biological systems are too complex to be explained through natural laws: this is impossible to falsify, as there will always be systems which are not fully understood at the frontiers of science. The moment that a theory is found to explain the 'unexplainable' theory, then ID proponents will just their shoulders and move on to something else. In addition, a quick glance at the SPM science syllabi reveals this: in Physics, the latest discovery discussed is the 1913 Bohr model of the atom; similarly, in other subjects, the only things which are taught to students are all well established for decades. Thus, any arguments to teach ID in school in order to 'show both sides of the controversy' are nothing more than naked attempts to teach religion in science class, as secondary schools are not in the business to discuss theories which are not well established. If ID is to be taught in science classes in order to 'show the full picture', then perhaps madrasahs and church Sunday schools should follow the same example by teaching other religions.

He also betrays his knowledge of science further by comparing scientists' inability to actually see nuclear particles with the naked eye with an alleged refusal to acknowledge the existence of God even if he turns up in front of them. As the scientific method has to do with describing nature, one simple consequence is that it allows humankind to manipulate nature, and furthermore any scientific theory cannot contradict other facts we know about nature. Thus, while one might try to deny the existence of nuclear particles, one cannot deny that the functionality of , say, nuclear weapons is dependent on the assumption that nuclear particles exist. Thus, if a skeptical scientists sees God appearing before him, he may indeed attempt to dismiss it as an illusion or hallucination. However, if the said apparition of God strikes him with lightning (and hence establish itself into a reality beyond the visual sense), then he si forced to acknowledge the existence of this being.

Finally, he makes a sweeping dismissal of macro-evolution, firstly by invoking the authority of Gregor Mendel, the father of modern genetics. Unfortunately for him, he is citing a scientist who lived over a hundred years ago, prior to the revolutionary discoveries of 20th century such as the discovery of DNA and molecular biology, so he would not have the knowledge to know better. Tan's dismissal of specifically the parts of evolutionary theory which 'link man to the primates' reveal that his concern is not of a scientific nature, but is thoroughly religious.

He claims that because 'counter-examples' have been found for macro-evolution, thus it has been proven false. This, again, shows an ignorance of the scientific method. Science does not progress until the scientific community as a whole agrees by consensus as to the validity of a new theory, which is fits the facts better than an older theory. At this point in time, macro-evolution is by far the best explanation for observed phenomena in biology, even though it might not be perfect in its details. That is the normal state of scientific theories, which seek to attain the best description of nature through the scientific method. While there might be evidence contrary to established notions of macro-evolution, these are not sufficient to cast out the theory until large numbers of strong evidence has been found. In any case, macro-evolution is a theory which is still in (pardon the pun) evolution: its details can be modified to fit new evidence. While religious people often complain that science is an atheist conspiracy to disprove the existence of God, scientists have in the past shown a willingness to accept evidence that can be interpreted to support the existence of God, such as the Big Bang theory of the Universe.

Regarding, the existence of miracles, a scientist would not discount the possibility of miracles occurring, rather there is no way to systematically study such supernatural phenomena to establish it in a scientific manner (or rather, all such previous attempts have failed). Rather, the burden is on the believers of miracles to prove that the occurence of miracles are beyond the realms of probability and statistics, rather than on scientists to disprove them.
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Post by Surlethe »

As one who is trained in mathematical research, I know that a theory must begin with some assumptions that are not subject to proof. Changing these assumptions will yield different conclusions. For example, the assumptions of Euclidean (or Newtonian) geometry yield "flat" space. This was the prevailing notion of the universe until Einstein used different assumptions and derived a "curved" space-time.
This strikes me as rather beside the point; a mathematical proof is based on assumptions, but a scientific theory is based on observation, rather than assumption; or do I misunderstand?
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Post by kheegster »

Surlethe wrote:
As one who is trained in mathematical research, I know that a theory must begin with some assumptions that are not subject to proof. Changing these assumptions will yield different conclusions. For example, the assumptions of Euclidean (or Newtonian) geometry yield "flat" space. This was the prevailing notion of the universe until Einstein used different assumptions and derived a "curved" space-time.
This strikes me as rather beside the point; a mathematical proof is based on assumptions, but a scientific theory is based on observation, rather than assumption; or do I misunderstand?
On a level, science is based on an understanding that the natural world works in a rational manner, and science cannot proceed unless you assume that this is a case. However, at this level the argument is no longer one of science, but one of philosophy, specifically metaphysics.
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