Alt-History: Design a "Lost World"

[Majin Gojira]

Objective: Create a true "Lost World" -- an isolated location where prehistoric creatures still exist. These may be Dinosaurs, or they may be Mamoths or Terror Birds. Or, expand on island fauna to "Monstrous" levels".

Chose a location that could reasonably surive to 'modern' times (The Age of Exploration/Enlightenment in Europe). Then choose the basic/notable fauna/flaura of your Lost Worrld.

All rules of biology apply: Species will shrink on enclosed environments. Evolution still occurs (so exact throwbacks to prehistory will be rare, or only superficial), and the creatures will not know to fear mankind until its too late.

Finally, describe how humanity would react to your lost world. Would it survive encountering humanity? Why or why not?

And please, don't just point to real "Lost Worlds" as yours. You can use them as a template, but not much else.

[Bertie Wooster]

Instead of the continent of Antarctica ending up where it is, the whole plate tectonics system worked in such a way that Antarctica had a totally different path of it's continental drift and ended up in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with 2/3 of it South of the equator, and inexplicably, never got populated by Polynesian settlers. On this dark continent, intrepid explorers find an ecosystem filled with strange animals and creatures which had long been extinct.

[Mr Flibble]

Instead of the continent of Antarctica ending up where it is, the whole plate tectonics system worked in such a way that Antarctica had a totally different path of it's continental drift and ended up in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with 2/3 of it South of the equator, and inexplicably, never got populated by Polynesian settlers. On this dark continent, intrepid explorers find an ecosystem filled with strange animals and creatures which had long been extinct.

If the continent of Antarctica was not where it is in reality, human history and evolution would be incredibly different. Sea levels would be much higher as there is no southern ice cap and as there would not be the circumpolar current, ocean current patterns would also be different, leading to large changes of climate all over the world. Forget trying to preserve biota from prehistoric worlds in this, you would be struggling to preserve the evolution of existing biota (including humans)

[CaptainChewbacca]

Instead of the continent of Antarctica ending up where it is, the whole plate tectonics system worked in such a way that Antarctica had a totally different path of it's continental drift and ended up in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with 2/3 of it South of the equator, and inexplicably, never got populated by Polynesian settlers. On this dark continent, intrepid explorers find an ecosystem filled with strange animals and creatures which had long been extinct.

If the continent of Antarctica was not where it is in reality, human history and evolution would be incredibly different. Sea levels would be much higher as there is no southern ice cap and as there would not be the circumpolar current, ocean current patterns would also be different, leading to large changes of climate all over the world. Forget trying to preserve biota from prehistoric worlds in this, you would be struggling to preserve the evolution of existing biota (including humans)

Yes, but this thread is a massive suspension of disbelief, so let's just play along and not crap on the parade.

Probably Polynesians wouldn't have settled because there were fuckass big dinosaurs ready to eat them.

[wolveraptor]

It's speciffically stated in the OP that rules of biology apply and that there must be a reasonable chance of this happening.

A good scenario would be one that takes place millions of years in the future, long after the San Andreas fault line finally causes western CA to separate from the continental US.

[Mr Flibble]

Yes, but this thread is a massive suspension of disbelief, so let's just play along and not crap on the parade.

Probably Polynesians wouldn't have settled because there were fuckass big dinosaurs ready to eat them.

OP says that normal rules of biology apply, hence that scenario just wouldnt work.

A better ne ould e the creation of something along the lines of New Zealand, or Madagascar, large islands. so instead of ripping all of antarctica into the Pacific, how about a large enough chunk to make a sizable island, say the Antarctic peninsula gets pulled into pacific by some weird tectonic action. So then you still have cirumpolar current, and you get a piece of land in the pacific. Carry a few dinosaurs along with it for good measure.

[Majin Gojira]

The OP doesn't specify the creation of a new landmass. Existing island with different fauna/flaura would be perfectly acceptable.

The only thing it decries is using New Zealands Moa's as a Lost World -- if you put Artic Dinosaur decendents there, that would be sufficient for part of the OP.

[Akhlut]

An island, roughly Madagascar sized (roughly 1250 kilometers North-South, roughly 565 East-West), about equidistant from New Zealand and Chile (about 25°S, 120°W at it's northernmost point)). Being relatively large, organisms don't experience nearly as much of a tendency toward dwarfism as on smaller islands. The island separated from South America between the Cretaceous and Jurassic periods (about 150 MYA). Just to give the island a name, it is called Insula Occultus.

Insula Occultus has in its north sub-tropical rainforests and marshes, which superficially resemble the everglades of Florida and the rainforests of Central America. However, as the Insula Occultus broke off before angiosperms appeared, these everglades, marshes, and rainforests are filled with numerous gymnosperms (conifers and relatives) and giant ferns. This lack of flowering plants means a lack of social insects like wasps, bees, and ants, though some termite species exist in these areas. The primary predators in the rainforests are descendents of Orthosuchus, a genus of early crocodilians. They are large, quadrupedal land crocodiles that, at their largest, weigh about 400 kilograms. They are about a meter tall at the shoulder and are about 4 meters long. They take up the niche of big cats in forests, though they are unable to climb trees. The primary herbivores are cynodont descendents of numerous varieties. All of them share these traits: limited endothermy, specialized teeth, whiskers and body hair, mammary glands, and ovoviviparity (eggs that hatch internally).These archaemammals in the rainforests tend to be herbivores ranging from small, rodent like creatures up to large animals with superficial resemblances to other mammalian mega fauna. The most massive of these archaemammal mega-herbivores is 10 tonne beast resembling a glyptodont, insofar as its body is covered in bony scutes and it has a large tail-club. It is the only creature capable of not being eaten by any predator. It is only about 2 meters tall at the shoulder, although, it is about 6 meters long and nearly 4 meters wide. It eats low-lying ferns, young saplings, and large mosses. The archaemammals also have some predators represented in the rainforests, though of a much smaller variety than the monstrous land crocs. The archaemammals instead tend to be pack hunters and small predators and omnivores. There are also numerous small dinosaurs and reptiles. The predatory dinosaurs mostly died out on the island, due to the KT event, and most of the large herbivores died out as well, during the period of “meteoric winter.” Only the smallest survived and the archaemammals quickly took over the larger dinosaurs niches. All of the dinosaurs are feathered, at this point. Because some of the gymnosperms have taken to producing their own fruits (similar to juniper berries, most of the time), the small dinosaurs have taken to the trees and have become very similar to monkeys and squirrels. As the pteradons have gone extinct, there are no flying animals (beyond insects) on Insula Occultus, meaning no flying predators. However, it's a rarity indeed for there to be a prey species without a predator, so, some of those “dinosaur monkeys” have turned to predating on their own cousins. Gliding dinosaur monkeys do exist, however. The reptiles, while not being those of the rest of earth, resemble them relatively closely, mainly with advanced tuatara descendents taking over monitor lizard niches and snake niches. Neither turtles nor tortoises exist on Insula Occultus.

The marshes, oddly enough, are nearly free of crocodiles. While their egg-laying strategy works well enough for the land crocodiles, it did not work for them in the marshes, where the archaemammals' ovoviviparity allowed them to easily overtake the crocodiles as the dominant niche as ambush water predator. Now there is terrible archaemammal that reaches 7 meters in length and over a tonne in weight. It's jaws superficially resemble that of a crocodile's, but they have specialized teeth, with the front teeth specialized for grabbing and holding onto prey and the back teeth specialized for crushing bones and breaking off large chunks of flesh. These mammalodiles can't just eat each other, though: the marshes also have extensive networks of herbivores. Perhaps the most unusual is a giant quasirodent. The creature is about 100 kilograms and a meter tall at the shoulder. It's head shape is intermediate between a deer's and a capybara’s and it has large, webbed feet it uses to swim as well as stand in areas with saturated soils. This animal is the primary food sources of the mammalodiles, though, to make up for this being eaten all the time, it has a very quick reproductive cycle. One of the larger dinosaurs live in the swamp: they have long necks, long hind legs, and large, powerful tails with vertical flattening. This animal uses its long neck for both feeding and raising its head to look out for predators. The tail is used as a bit of a counter-balance to its head, but it uses it primarily for swimming. This dinosaur is also in the 100 kilogram range; its full height is 2.5 meters tall.

About 200 kilometers south of the northernmost point begins a volcanic mountain range that stretches down to the southernmost tip of Insula Occultus. The mountains are old, nearly 400 million years old, and are thus significantly worn. The tropical rainforests to the north give way to the temperate rainforests on the mountains. Here, the animals living in the tropical rainforests also begin to give way to those living on the mountains in a far cooler region. While the dinosaurs' plumage remains bright, it does get significantly heavier the further one gets up the mountains and the further south one goes. The land crocodiles also disappear about 600 meters up and 300 kilometers south. The mountains are about 1500 meters tall, on average, throughout the range. The highest peak is about 2,100 meters tall. Dinosaurs and archaemammals dominate in the mountains, with the largest being the mega quasiglyptodont. As there is no alpine area or tree line, there are no bare slopes or any animals associated with bare slopes. In these mountains lives a rather large and successful archaemammal, what one might call a “cynobear” (although, it is a pretty absurd name, I mean, “dog bear”?). This cynobear is a large (200-600 kilogram; 2 meters at shoulder) omnivore with generalist teeth. It has cutting teeth in the front (like a browsing herbivore), large canines, shearing teeth directly behind the canines, and crushing premolars. Its forelimb claws have unusual adaptations, primarily that the distal three (middle, ring, and pinkie fingers in humans) are good for digging, while the median two (thumb and index finger) have become large and scythe-like for grabbing at prey and holding prey well. Further, the median two claws fold up when not in use. The claws on its hind legs are non-retractable and relatively short, but dig into the soil for traction both for running and climbing up embankments and the occasional tree. It has good senses and a downward sloping muzzle.

“Grassland” runs from the south of Insula Occultus to the western portion of central Insula Occultus. It is not true grass, however. Instead, it is an unusual fern that grows low to the ground and releases allelopathic chemicals to help drown out rival species of plants. Here, the largest dinosaurs roam. The largest dinosaurs are heavily feathered predators that eat the large herd archaemammals living on the plains. Unlike predatory dinosaurs in the age of dinosaurs, these dinosaurs are quadrupedal. Like the land crocodiles to the north, these dinosaurs have evolved massive jaws with gripping teeth in the front and crushing teeth in the back. However, unlike the land crocodiles, these dinosaurs also make use of powerful forelimbs, like lions or tigers (oh my!). These dinosaurs tip the scales at 150 kilograms and .75 meters in height. While looking relatively small (being long and low-slung), they are also dense. They often rely on ambush attacks to kill their prey, as they cannot outpace their archaemammalian prey in speed. There are also some dinosaur herbivores, though they are generally smaller than their archaemammalian competitors. Also on these plains, there are devoted scavenger animals, mainly Komodo dragon tuatara analogues. These monitor-lizard-like tuataras are relatively small, with the largest weighing in at 25 kilograms and about a meter in length. They are safe from predation due to their noxious taste from the secretion of chemicals from the spines on their backs. Their strong jaws and peg teeth allow them to crack open bones for rich marrow and their impressive constitutions allow for them to eat rotting carrion without problems.

East of the mountains and north of the southern plains are the only temperate forests on Insula Occultus. These forests are filled mostly with subspecies and similar species as those in the mountain rainforests and the plains.

[CaptainChewbacca]

That's a pretty kickass lost world, Akhlut!

[Akhlut]

That's a pretty kickass lost world, Akhlut!

Thanks. I wanted to do more, but I don't think I have the time to expand on it like I would. o_x

[darthdavid]

If It's ok with you, and if I ever get time, and if I ever get properly motivated I'd really like to write a story about your lost world Akhlut. Or at the very least read one .

[Akhlut]

If It's ok with you, and if I ever get time, and if I ever get properly motivated I'd really like to write a story about your lost world Akhlut. Or at the very least read one .

Heh, that's not out of the question. I'm currently adding more stuff to it and plan on posting what I come up with later tonight. After that, though, it's probably going to be about a week or two before I can add more, due to a lot of stuff going on at school that needs to get done.

[Akhlut]

Additions to my Lost World:

Animal names so things like "crocodile like archaemammal" don't eat up hordes and hordes of space:

Land crocodile = terracroc
Large, glyptodont like archaemammal = loricoid
Monkey dinosaurs = pongosaurs
Crocodile archaemammal = snapping beast
Capybara archaemammal = platydont
“long” dinosaur = longisaur
Cynobear = ursadont
Predatory dinosaur = carnesaur
Tuatara Komodo dragon = vulturine tuatara

Tropical Rainforest, Continued: There are other predators besides the terracrocs, such as the small, pack hunting archaemammals, the feliforms. These small animals, as their names suggest, superficially resemble felines. However, their jaws tend to be a bit longer and they don’t posses canines of any significant length. They are often only about a meter long from head to the base of the tail and about 20-30 kilograms in weight. While their forelimbs are well-adapted to gripping and wrestling with prey, they aren’t all that well-adapted to climbing. Because of this, they have reduced tails (often only half a meter in length), as they are ambush hunters and hunt with some complex strategies (three or four lie in wait while two others drive the prey toward the others in wait) and don’t require long tails for balance while they run. They live in packs dominated by large females (males are small, as they don’t retain eggs internally and don’t need the survival benefits that being larger confer) who often lie in wait to wrestle down the prey and suffocate it (suffocation occurs due to the feliforms placing their mouths over the mouth and nose of the pray). When the alpha female is carrying, the beta female is the one who does this. Males, being smaller, are quicker and chase the prey toward the females. The males tend to be a little more conspicuously colored than the females.

One of the primary prey animals of feliforms is the rotodont, a forager in the rainforests. These archaemammals are the size of a small person (50 kilograms; half a meter at the shoulder) and browse on the low-lying ferns and conifers in the forest. They have dappled coats and a great sense of hearing and smell. Their sense of sight isn’t too good, and they tend to be able only of spotting motion and bright colors. Because of this, male feliforms evolved their characteristically bright (usually whitish or yellowish) coat so that the rotodonts see them and become skittish and prone to flight. They aren’t particularly smart animals and the reason they haven’t been hunted to extinction is their reproductive success (birth to 2 reasonably well-developed calves that only have to suckle for a month and can run at birth) and easily satisfied diet (anything within reach that doesn’t break their teeth).

The pongosaurs are a diverse group of dinosaurs on Insula Occultus. Most of them are arboreal and all are less than 50 kilograms. The two largest species are the predatory avellosaurs and the mostly terrestrial gravisaurs. The avellosaurs are one of about five species of predatory pongosaurs and by-far the largest. They grew so large because of an evolutionary strategy of outweighing and out muscling one’s prey so much that it is difficult for it to harm one’s self. The avellosaurs are solitary hunters with large brains. While they have a tail, it is not prehensile and they lack opposable digits on their forelimbs. Their hind limbs, however, possess opposable digits. Because of their brachiating movement, their opposable claw migrated so as to not be problematic. With their massive size advantage over most pongosaurs (who weigh in at around 5-10 kilograms), they easily kill them. While most pongosaurs, even predatory ones, have evolved relatively flat faces, the avellosaurs have a lengthened muzzle that allows greater muscle attachment and, thus, greater biting force, allowing them to crush skulls, open ribcages, and snap bones to get at marrow.

Gravisaurs, on the other hand, have become mostly terrestrial, in a fashion similar to gorillas or chimpanzees. They often prefer the young ferns and conifer saplings for their diets and their proportionally great strength and their good sense of sight, as well as their social tendencies toward large groups, make them relatively safe from most predators, barring terracrocs. Even feliforms will avoid hunting them, as gravisaur groups will ferociously protect their friends and family.

The other, various semi-tapir like archaemammals and the small, neosauropods can be imagined on your own time.

[Akhlut]

In case you can't tell, I'm having fun with this. Also, this doesn't count as spamming, does it?

Marshes, Continued: While snapping beasts are the major predators in the marshes, there exist other animals that make hunting their business in the marshes. While there are numerous fish, none of them are particularly spectacular. Mostly just unusual cichlids and other ray-finned fish live there, along with a lungfish. While young snapping beasts hunt the fish, the trap-jaw tuatara hunts them both. With the ability to slow their metabolism significantly, they can stay underwater for hours at a time, patiently waiting with mouth agape for an incautious animal to stray toward it. If any animal gets near the trap-jaw tuatara, it snaps out with blinding speed and takes an immense bite out of its prey. As snapping beasts are archaemammals, they are covered with a fur coat, not scaly armor. And, unlike the loricoid, the snapping beast has not developed bony scutes, either. While the trap-jaw bite is unlikely to go through the thick fur pelt, leathery skin, and toughened muscle of a snapping beast that’s more than a couple of meters long, young snapping beasts can expect to lose a large hunk of flesh and bleed out. The trap-jaw tuatara then uses its epiglottis to block water from its lungs, opens its nostrils a bit to catch a whiff of blood in the water, closes its nostrils again, ejects the water from its mouth, and repeats the process the find its dying prey. For relatively small fish, the bite usually kills the fish rather quickly, so it doesn’t have to bother with that. The trap-jaw tuatara is 2 meters long and about 40 kilograms for the larger specimens.

Other herbivores in the marshes beside the platydont and longisaur are wading tuataras. These sluggish, mid-sized herbivores often avoid predation by looking like logs or other floating detritus. As they don’t often move, they pull off the deception with ease. Even if a snapping beast nudges them or gives a soft test bite, they often remain motionless. They eat all manner of greenery they can find in the marshes.

[Akhlut]

Wooh, I'm really pumping this out, aren't I? What can I say, I do so love this sort of shit, especially when it's with things I'm somewhat familar with.

Mountains, Continued: While the temperate rainforests of the mountains are inhabited by usually larger and/or better insulated animals that exist in the tropical rainforests, there are some different animals.

Besides the ursadont, there is another opportunist omnivore roving the rainforests. It is the…tanukidont! Thought to have a recent common ancestor with the ursadont, the tanukidont lacks the two scythe claws of the ursadont and is significantly smaller. Instead of 200-600 kilograms, the tanukidont is closer to 10-20 kilograms in weight. Instead of being 2 meters at the shoulder, it is about .3 meters at the shoulder. Its claws are also more generalized than the digging claws of the ursadont, allowing the tanukidont to climb trees, though not nearly as well as pongosaurs. This allows it to eat fruits and pine seeds that it would have a difficult time getting on the ground, due to pongosaurs eating them before they fall. The larger tanukidonts will also occasionally eat the smaller pongosaurs, though they have difficulty catching them.

Because opportunist omnivores can’t be the only things eating meat in the mountains, other predators exist as well. Sharing a common ancestor with the feliforms are the pantheforms. These creatures are fairly similar to feliforms in most ways, except bigger and in smaller packs. They weigh in at 50 kilograms instead of 20-30 kilograms and tend to hunt in packs of about 3 or 4 individuals instead of 5-7. Males are still smaller, some of them being the size of a larger feliform.

The mountains also have their fair share of ground herbivores. As larger predators are somewhat rare (only pantheforms and ursadonts), herbivore diversity has increased somewhat. While there are animals similar to platydonts without the webbed feet, rotodonts, and loricoids, there are also rutilodonts: large archaemammals with broad, spade-like teeth. These teeth are used to excavate for roots and fungi, especially in the winters (while temperatures don’t often fall below freezing, a lot of plants still lose their leaves and the underground rhizomes of ferns that contain a lot of starch can help the animals that can get to them). While not the mammoth size of the loricoids, they still reach hefty sizes of nearly a tonne and are about 2 meters tall at the shoulder.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Keep in mind you'd still have standard birds, which would have to out-compete any potential long-distance flyers that could migrate away from your lost world.

And no, its not spamming.

[Akhlut]

Keep in mind you'd still have standard birds, which would have to out-compete any potential long-distance flyers that could migrate away from your lost world.

And no, its not spamming.

I don't think there'd be any birds, besides maybe a few gulls seasonally. The island split off when the first bird ancestors were starting to evolve (roughly 150 MYA). Any therapod/bird dinosaurs like archeoptryx may have survived, but I have them becoming the pongosaurs on my little island.

I, personally, just like the idea of an island devoid of birds and how unusual it'd be for someone discovering it and not hearing any bird calls, just the howls of the pongosaurs.

[Ariphaos]

[snip]

Mostly good, but didn't grass only evolve over the past forty million years? It's insanely successful, true...

[Akhlut]

[snip]

Mostly good, but didn't grass only evolve over the past forty million years? It's insanely successful, true...

“Grassland” runs from the south of Insula Occultus to the western portion of central Insula Occultus. It is not true grass, however. Instead, it is an unusual fern that grows low to the ground and releases allelopathic chemicals to help drown out rival species of plants.

Emphasis mine.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Keep in mind you'd still have standard birds, which would have to out-compete any potential long-distance flyers that could migrate away from your lost world.

And no, its not spamming.

I don't think there'd be any birds, besides maybe a few gulls seasonally. The island split off when the first bird ancestors were starting to evolve (roughly 150 MYA). Any therapod/bird dinosaurs like archeoptryx may have survived, but I have them becoming the pongosaurs on my little island.

I, personally, just like the idea of an island devoid of birds and how unusual it'd be for someone discovering it and not hearing any bird calls, just the howls of the pongosaurs.

Birds can migrate several thousand miles without stopping, or they can float on debris. You'd have plenty of bird species.

[Akhlut]

Birds can migrate several thousand miles without stopping, or they can float on debris. You'd have plenty of bird species.

Birds that migrate several thousand miles tend to be things like gulls and albatrosses. I don't particularly see how Insula Occultus would be that attractive a spot for stopping over on migration, as the only thing north of it is Hawaii, really. I'd think most birds wouldn't have used Insula Occultus as a stop-over for migration as it is in the middle of nowhere and way off most of their flight-paths.

And I sincerely doubt other birds being able to make the flight over. Birds that migrate over continents stop pretty frequently to get meals, fatten up for the rest of the journey, and rest. And birds that can drift on debris probably wouldn't survive the journey to Insula Occultus, as it is over 5,000 kilometers away from any other island that has birds.

And, with that, I need to get my ass in bed. I have to be up in 4 and a half hours. >.<

[Akhlut]

Actually, now that I think about, it's very plausible that birds would be on Insula Occultus. Hawaii being the obvious example, being roughly the same distance from land as Insula Occultus, does have some native bird species. My bad.

[LadyTevar]

Actually, now that I think about, it's very plausible that birds would be on Insula Occultus. Hawaii being the obvious example, being roughly the same distance from land as Insula Occultus, does have some native bird species. My bad.

I was about to point out that fact, as well as the birds on Galapegos and other small islands in the Polynesian chains.

Otherwise, you've built a facinating little world! I'd love to see someone do pictures/sketches of the creatures

[The Original Nex]

If you don't want birds, you could always have some sort of other flying creature have evolved and diversified into many forms, such that modern vagrant birds couldn't compete with the existing organisms, and never got a foothold in the ecosystem.

[RedImperator]

I don't think you can make a lost world exist all the way into modern times, though into human times might not be out of the question. The fact of the matter is, if the Polynesians were able to discover and settle rocks like Easter Island, a landmass the size of New Zealand or Madigascar or even Hawaii won't be overlooked no matter how isolated it is (unless it's in the Antarctic, which does this scenario no good).

That said, Akhlut's lost world is pretty interesting. It would certainly present some challenges when the first Polynesian explorers arrived.