Okay apparently I wasn't as clear as needed to be.
Molyneux wrote:So, the savior of Mankind is the product of adultery - said adultery being performed by an innocent woman (rape?) and the all-powerful, all-good Lord of Creation. Got it.
Neither. No intercourse took place so little case for either. Though she wasn't married so adultery is impossible, and she agreed to this so no rape. (The archangel Gabriel came to her telling her what was about to happen, if she had a problem with it I doubt God would have forced her.)
Thou shalt not kill...
Yet Moses did just that and God didn't seem to have a problem. Also this is not murder. That's like saying that if you die saving someones life murder was committed.
What prophecy?
I'd really appreciate a clarification of to exactly what prophecy you are referring.
Isaiah mainly. A lot comes from chpt 53. My understanding is that 53 isn't the same as Jewish apocrypha. I'll try to find some more for you if you want.
Also, an innocent man suffering in a sinner's stead != justice by any stretch of the imagination. I'll suffer for my own sins, thank you.
This is the debate of mercy vs. justice I spoke of. It was kinda buried so I'd not be surprised if you didn't see it mentioned. Basicaly the debate goes like this. Justice demands that you suffer your punishment for any crimes committed. No time off for good behaviour or other leniency. Mercy says that all is forgiven and no punishment is required. Christ acted as a proxy in our stead allowing him to plead to God that justice is satisfied because some punishment will happen, however mercy can be extended. If there was no sacrifice everyone would have to suffer for there sins even as Christ suffered in Gethsemane.
Uh-huh...how exactly did he fulfill the law of Moses? Or the covenant of Abraham, for that matter? My people are still bound by that particular covenant; there wasn't any expiration date in it.
I never mentioned the Covenant of Abraham, and you're right it is still in effect. The Law was fulfilled through Christs sacrifice. I mean the Children of Israel sacrificed lambs "in similitude of My son, who will come". This is because of the events at Sinai. They showed up, God spoke to them in a cloud. Gave them his law, then Moses went up to the mountain and was gone "for forty days and forty nights". During that time they decided that Moses was dead and began to break Gods law. God told Moses that the people had sinned and he should return. Upon his return he chastised the people, then received the ten commandments. Then he began giving the people the Law. Christs coming as the Messiah fulfilled the Law, and he brought a higher law to replace it.
Well, Judaism, for one thing. That's one of the views we have of the Messianic Age. And we had it for quite awhile before you "borrowed" the idea.
Didn't realize the Judaic veiw on resurrection was that similar. Thanks for the info.
Sorry if I sound a bit snappish, but I got ambushed by an evangelist on my way to see a guest speaker last night. Nice girl, but really didn't know how to let someone out of a conversation.
Understandable, I've been in that situation a few times myself.
SirNitram wrote:.....You have heard of Valhalla and Ragnarok, right?
Yes actually I have. What I've read of their beleifs was that you died went to Valhalla where you suddenly have a
new body that was immortal. Not their old body perfected and made immortal.
CaptJodan wrote:Don't Muslim's believe in a resurrection of sorts as well? Though maybe they came later, not sure.
Islam didn't come on the scene until the seventh century AD.
God was masacuring people before he event INVENTED laws forbidding certain acts. Let's not forget the poor soul who came and was killed for bringing bad news to God. I don't remember a rule forbidding such things. There are countless other examples of God going around telling perhaps the Jews that X civilization or city has sinned, so either he, or they, should burn it to the ground, all without God actually even telling them what the hell they were doing wrong first.
God told the Israelites to kill the people in Caanan before they moved into those areas. The reason for this was because the people of Caanan worshipped Baal. The sacrifices made to Baal were children thrown living into a fire. God didn't want His people to be tempted to follow the same path. He also told the Israelites why they needed to do this.
Let's not forget the poor soul who came and was killed for bringing bad news to God.
What are you talking about? I have no idea where this is coming from.
The question doesn't become why does God not help us, it's why does he create humans TO SUFFER AND SIN IN THE FIRST PLACE!
I think this is the core of your next point, so I'm going to deal with this. As stated earlier this is all according to my particular form of Chistianity. Others might disagree. Humans are born to be tested to grow and develop and prove that we are capable of bettering ourselves. Also we were born to gain our "first estate" (a body) so that later we can be perfected and made immortal. Without all these things we would be unable to gain eternal life. Even Christ had to be born and gain a body, and he was perfect. So how much better than him are you?
And why am I suffering for a mistake made by two people from (in your view) the beginning of time?
You're not. Adams fall simply allowed sin into the world, we chose to commit those sins. Since we have sinned something must happen to allow us to return to God. Nothing impure can abide in His presence so we must be washed clean of our sin. Hence the Atonement.
God is a GOD. He can change the rules as he damn well pleases. He HAS DONE THIS (the two versions of the 10 Commandments). God's grand creation could have been far more moral and just had he created a world without sin, or without the capability for us to sin. It's not like we would have known what we were missing. He would have made the physics of the universe such that there was no sin, and thus, we would have no concept of it.
He has never changed the rules. The rules are and always will be the same. Without the capability of sin where is the growth ? The change? The test? The war in heaven took place because that was exactly what Satan wanted. He wanted a world without choice. A world where you wouldn't have a choice in sin. Everyone would return, and such a world goes against the whole point of Gods plan.
Darth Wong wrote:That's a really, really long-winded way of failing to refute my point that it's still the animal-sacrifice mentality. You just buried that away in the body of this excess verbiage by mumbling about how God has rules (like the one about how he must be appeased by sacrifice, just like Apollo or Huitzilopochtli).
Quick question. Can you explain your idea of the animal-sacrifice mentality? I thought I had refuted this, but if not then I would like some clarification.
You honestly think that life after death in some form is a unique feature of Christianity?
No, however I was unsure if the idea of a resurrection that involved a perfected and immortal body was unique.
No war was ever won by dying for your country, but by making the other poor sumbitch die for his. - Gen. George A. Patton
The soldier above all others prays for peace, for it is the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of wars. -Gen. Douglas MacArthur