precog vs. reaction time.

[His Divine Shadow]

This is something I've read more than one, that you cannot out-react someone who starts before you think of something and it's been bugging me.

Why can't you do that?

If a jedi attacks or is attacked by someone who can think, move and react at the speed of light, how can he then stop him? I mean lets say the jedi starts moving to deflect the first attack and blocks it, but is his precog then fast enough to block the other attack that will be thought of and performed like 0.00000000000000000001(just making this here up) seconds after the first one was blocked?

I mean what use is precog if your brain and limbs are too slow to use the information before your opponent has already had time to attack you a dozen times and play chess?

That would mean that while precog is a great advantage it will not always allow you to beat someone who can be absurdly fast, right? Like a culture drone or a mind.

[His Divine Shadow]

I realize this might belong more in the other sci-fi forum as well, move it if it's out of place.

[NecronLord]

It is, as an out of context statement, entirely silly, of course.

[His Divine Shadow]

It is, as an out of context statement, entirely silly, of course.

Well I've sort of gotten the impression that such was the context the times it has been used when I've seen it, might be my fault then but still, good to clear that up, I was starting to think either I have a severly defunct understand of physics of I have misunderstood.

[NecronLord]

Worked example. A culture drone holding a blaster faces off against a Jedi.

The drone decides where it wants to shoot the jedi. The jedi moves his saber to block. The drone watches the saber move, calculates that it'll be intercepted, and delays its blast by a fraction of a second, the jedi's saber has gone past where it would have blocked the blast when the blast passes the weapon, and the jedi gets shot.

[Turin]

The drone decides where it wants to shoot the jedi. The jedi moves his saber to block. The drone watches the saber move, calculates that it'll be intercepted, and delays its blast by a fraction of a second, the jedi's saber has gone past where it would have blocked the blast when the blast passes the weapon, and the jedi gets shot.

Assume for the moment that the Jedi's precog trumps this "fraction of a second" delay and can account for it. The Jedi "fakes" the saber move to account for the drone's delay and thus blocks the first shot. But the drone's rate of fire may be very high (I'm honestly not familiar enough with the Culture series), and if it can get enough shots in, the speed of the Jedi's limbs won't be fast enough to keep up no matter how good his precog is.

[LaCroix]

We can say that, using precog, the jedi will always deflect the first shot.. he KNOWS that the drone will be reacting to his movement, and therefore, the shot will be placed HERE. He knows long enough to be exactly where he needs to be.

But in a salvo, the speed of the jedi is a factor. he will get the first shot, and he will know where the second will be, but he has to move from shot a to shot be in the time between shot a and b.

Even if he reflects shot A back to the shooter, if shot B is briefly after A and the time to hit the shooter with the deflected bolt is longer than the time for the next bolt, its a darw, both get hit.

Thats how you bring a precog user down. overwhelming rate of fire. Thats why those superbattledroids/droidekas and the fast ROF Clonegun are threats to jedi.

[brianeyci]

Thats how you bring a precog user down. overwhelming rate of fire. Thats why those superbattledroids/droidekas and the fast ROF Clonegun are threats to jedi.

I second that in saying something like this is what you need to kill Jedi. The first thing I thought of when I watched the OT was put myself in the bad guy's shoes and wonder what I would need to kill a Jedi. ROF was the only thing I could come up with that could negate the precognition advantage. Something like this (and a lot of them)



When the Droideka scene in TPM came up, I was like "yes!" when it vindicated my hypothesis that Jedi could be killed by high ROF.

Which reminds me of a cool idea for a new thread...

Brian

[petesampras]

Pre-cognition runs into similar problems to time travel.

Assume you have pre-cognitive powers. If you predict an event it is possible for you to prevent its occurrance (not always, but there are many events where prior knowledge can allow this). However, if the event doesn't happen then your pre-cognition was wrong and you have a contradiction with the assumption.

A solution to this is to assume that pre-cognition applies to how the world would have been if the pre-cogition had not occurred. There may well be other solutions, but this is one which prevents the contradiction.

If this is the case the jedi has pre-cognition of the culture drone (or whatevers) attack and places his light sabre to block it. The culture drone sees this and adjusts its attack. The Jedis earlier pre-cognition could not have forseen this since it was an event caused by the pre-cognition itself, hence the Jedi cannot block the attack without similar reaction times.

[Captain Cyran]

Worked example. A culture drone holding a blaster faces off against a Jedi.

The drone decides where it wants to shoot the jedi. The jedi moves his saber to block. The drone watches the saber move, calculates that it'll be intercepted, and delays its blast by a fraction of a second, the jedi's saber has gone past where it would have blocked the blast when the blast passes the weapon, and the jedi gets shot.

Except that's not real pre-cog as described by Star Wars. I'm pretty sure it's stated to basically seeing the future. Therefore the Jedi will usually know where the blast is coming from. The main way to take out a Jedi is to do something he can't block, such as a high ROF or a high number of angles of fire also a large enough explosion. That or wait for the force to have a hiccup so the Jedi doesn't see it coming.

I hate the fact that pre-cog can beat even nanosecond reaction times, but let's face it, you're seeing things just before they happen, how can you beat that other than the ways I just said.

As an aside, the OP would result in a draw, the person with amazing reaction times couldn't hit the Jedi without a real high rate of fire, but the Jedi couldn't hit the person without using one hell of an area attack.

[Imperial Overlord]

Except that's not real pre-cog as described by Star Wars. I'm pretty sure it's stated to basically seeing the future. Therefore the Jedi will usually know where the blast is coming from. The main way to take out a Jedi is to do something he can't block, such as a high ROF or a high number of angles of fire also a large enough explosion. That or wait for the force to have a hiccup so the Jedi doesn't see it coming.

I hate the fact that pre-cog can beat even nanosecond reaction times, but let's face it, you're seeing things just before they happen, how can you beat that other than the ways I just said.

Except "the future is always in motion" according to Yoda so perfect precognition doesn't exit. Anticipation is only useful if you have enough time to act effectively on it, which is ridiculous in the Culture Drone example. It takes much less time to redirect a gun barrel slightly than to change which side of the body you have the lightsaber blade on. Hell, Jango Fett can shoot through a Jedi's guard with only one of his pistols.

[Darth Wong]

If you read the ROTS novelization, a Jedi's survivability in combat depends on his ability to submerge himself in the Force; to allow the Force to completely guide his actions without trying to think his way through and make his own decisions.

Given the mystical and seemingly all-encompassing nature of the Force, it is difficult to say what it can and cannot accomplish. Those Jedi who fail are generally those who tried to think too much and who failed to completely submit to the will of the Force.

It's akin to precognition because the Force itself seems to be precognitive (to an absurd extreme, accurately prophesying specific events decades or centuries before they happen), but there are varying skills with which a Jedi can actually tap into this power; the power itself is vast as Vader once said, but how much of it you control (or allow to control you) is a matter of user skill and philosophy.

In any case, a Jedi's combat precog is not exactly the same as conventional fantasy or sci-fi precog; he himself does not see the blaster bolt approaching before it is fired; the Force knows it will come, and it will guide his body if he is sufficiently attuned to the Force and pure of mind to allow it to do so.

[SirNitram]

Just as a quick question.. When Yoda is unable to accurately forecast an event hundreds or even thousands of lightyears away, hours or days away, why is this assumed to make combat precog.. Something that will operate on minutes or seconds.. untrustworthy? Context, context, context.

[Imperial Overlord]

Just as a quick question.. When Yoda is unable to accurately forecast an event hundreds or even thousands of lightyears away, hours or days away, why is this assumed to make combat precog.. Something that will operate on minutes or seconds.. untrustworthy? Context, context, context.

Why is it assumed to be always trustworthy? It seems to generally work fairly well, but its practitioners are not always accurate in their use of it.

Mike makes excellent points. A Jedi is attuned to the Force which is attuned to the universe around him. Their ability to deflect incoming fire is dependent upon the degree of their attunement and enhancement of their physical abilities that come with it.

[NecronLord]

Assume for the moment that the Jedi's precog trumps this "fraction of a second" delay and can account for it.

We're talking milliseconds. A jedi really can't hack that.

The Jedi "fakes" the saber move to account for the drone's delay and thus blocks the first shot. But the drone's rate of fire may be very high (I'm honestly not familiar enough with the Culture series), and if it can get enough shots in, the speed of the Jedi's limbs won't be fast enough to keep up no matter how good his precog is.

The drone could actually reduce the Jedi to a drooling imbicile in a millisecond, but it's using a blaster here.

[His Divine Shadow]

Except that's not real pre-cog as described by Star Wars. I'm pretty sure it's stated to basically seeing the future. Therefore the Jedi will usually know where the blast is coming from. The main way to take out a Jedi is to do something he can't block, such as a high ROF or a high number of angles of fire also a large enough explosion. That or wait for the force to have a hiccup so the Jedi doesn't see it coming.

I hate the fact that pre-cog can beat even nanosecond reaction times, but let's face it, you're seeing things just before they happen, how can you beat that other than the ways I just said.

Actually it cannot beat speed and reaction time, which was my original argument even if my subject only mentions reaction time, my misstake although mypost does show it means both speed and reaction time.
My fictional enemy would have no problems sending one lethal energy beam to the jedis torso and then one to his legs and thenone to his head and 184(made that up) more to various places of his body in a single nanosecond.

It could beat Necronlords original idea though, because the force is mystical and might see beyond the feint to the true lethal move. That a jedi could fend off if prepared, but not two, three or four attacks that are all genuine.

As an aside, the OP would result in a draw, the person with amazing reaction times couldn't hit the Jedi without a real high rate of fire, but the Jedi couldn't hit the person without using one hell of an area attack.

Clearly you have not read the OP. No jedi can withstand several thousands of attacks per second, each one lethal unless addressed.

Speed and reaction beats precog in this manner, sure it might be possible some über jedi might be able to use the mystical force in some way, but a being that powerfull in the force is not existant in the SWU, nor is it very likely to exist.

[NecronLord]

We can say that, using precog, the jedi will always deflect the first shot.. he KNOWS that the drone will be reacting to his movement, and therefore, the shot will be placed HERE. He knows long enough to be exactly where he needs to be.

Why? To a Culture combat drone, he seems to be moving like a statue. The shot will be going to the first location, but by the time the jedi's saber has moved, the drone has evaluated what he's doing, written several short sonnets, and then changed the place its going to shoot.

Except that's not real pre-cog as described by Star Wars. I'm pretty sure it's stated to basically seeing the future.

Always in motion the future is. When the Jedi starts moving, the Drone sees what he's trying to do, and takes a few milliseconds to compensate - the future changes. The jedi's puny, meaty brain can't operate its body that fast, and he gets shot.

[SirNitram]

Just as a quick question.. When Yoda is unable to accurately forecast an event hundreds or even thousands of lightyears away, hours or days away, why is this assumed to make combat precog.. Something that will operate on minutes or seconds.. untrustworthy? Context, context, context.

Why is it assumed to be always trustworthy? It seems to generally work fairly well, but its practitioners are not always accurate in their use of it.

Mike makes excellent points. A Jedi is attuned to the Force which is attuned to the universe around him. Their ability to deflect incoming fire is dependent upon the degree of their attunement and enhancement of their physical abilities that come with it.

That's the thing about mystic abilities; an individuals usage of it is going to be related to their skill level and innate talent. Which can make quantification tricky, but far from impossible.

Warriors are generally shown to be able to hold their own against multiple opponents who don't have Force powers; Jango manages it mostly because he's got ridiculous gadgets.

[His Divine Shadow]

It could beat Necronlords original idea though, because the force is mystical and might see beyond the feint to the true lethal move. That a jedi could fend off if prepared, but not two, three or four attacks that are all genuine.

To clairfy, oh how I hate no editing, it could beat his original blaster attack, but there would be so many more bolts coming that very instant it would only postpone death by a very short amount.

[Imperial Overlord]

[
That's the thing about mystic abilities; an individuals usage of it is going to be related to their skill level and innate talent. Which can make quantification tricky, but far from impossible.

Agreed

Warriors are generally shown to be able to hold their own against multiple opponents who don't have Force powers; Jango manages it mostly because he's got ridiculous gadgets.

In the fight against Obi-Wan and the opening stages of the arena battle against Mace, both powerful practitioners, yes he does. When he guns down the Jedi at close range, he's only using one blaster. Not every Jedi requires gadgeteering to defeat.

We have plenty of evidence of the value of surprise and superior numbers for ROTS. I trust we don't have to waste time arguing about it.

[NecronLord]

It could beat Necronlords original idea though, because the force is mystical and might see beyond the feint to the true lethal move. That a jedi could fend off if prepared, but not two, three or four attacks that are all genuine.

It's not a feint that would be if it planned that ahead of time, it's intended, by the drone, to be a real shot, the drone, but as all things are not predestined (or if they are, the Jedi can't see them all) in Star Wars, it simply changes what it's doing when it sees the jedi move.

[Darth Wong]

Given enough sheer volume of fire, it presumably becomes impossible for the Jedi to block or evade everything even with Force-assisted speed and Force-guided movement. But in the past, this typically comes up with relatively limited opponents such as Spiderman or some other bipedal creature which is constrained to not laugh his ass off at the laws of physics, unlike Culture stuff.

[NecronLord]

which is constrained to not laugh his ass off at the laws of physics, unlike Culture stuff.

If you're talking about out-reacting the jedi, you are going to need something with stupidly fast reactions, be it a Necron Lord with a time-manipulator, or a Roston Warrior Robot.

[Captain Cyran]

Actually it cannot beat speed and reaction time, which was my original argument even if my subject only mentions reaction time, my misstake although mypost does show it means both speed and reaction time.
My fictional enemy would have no problems sending one lethal energy beam to the jedis torso and then one to his legs and thenone to his head and 184(made that up) more to various places of his body in a single nanosecond.

It could beat Necronlords original idea though, because the force is mystical and might see beyond the feint to the true lethal move. That a jedi could fend off if prepared, but not two, three or four attacks that are all genuine.

Right, my bad. I figured it was rather apparent that if a person can fire a huge number of shots at every area of a Jedi there's no way the Jedi could survive the attack. But my point still remains somewhat seeing as the reaction time person would have to use the immense ROF as well to beat the Jedi, not just reaction time.

Definately so on the feint attack being seen through.

Clearly you have not read the OP. No jedi can withstand several thousands of attacks per second, each one lethal unless addressed.

Speed and reaction beats precog in this manner, sure it might be possible some über jedi might be able to use the mystical force in some way, but a being that powerfull in the force is not existant in the SWU, nor is it very likely to exist.

But that should already be quite apparent, which makes me wonder why the thread was made. *shrugs*

To play inept devil's advocate, could a Jedi's force wall ability, let's assume average Jedi, then someone of Vader's skill, stop an attack like that?

[NecronLord]

To play inept devil's advocate, could a Jedi's force wall ability, let's assume average Jedi, then someone of Vader's skill, stop an attack like that?

Given that it doesn't stop light, and probably not blasters (else why doesn't Obi-Wan use it to deflect blaster fire in the clone wars 'toons), it'd be unable to stop most energy weapons.