precog vs. reaction time.

[petesampras]

It could beat Necronlords original idea though, because the force is mystical and might see beyond the feint to the true lethal move. That a jedi could fend off if prepared, but not two, three or four attacks that are all genuine.

It's not a feint that would be if it planned that ahead of time, it's intended, by the drone, to be a real shot, the drone, but as all things are not predestined (or if they are, the Jedi can't see them all) in Star Wars, it simply changes what it's doing when it sees the jedi move.

This, to me, is the key distinction. The drones last 'nano or whatever second' adjustment is a response to the effects of the Jedis pre-cognition. It would not have happened had the pre-cognition not occurred.

If Jedi pre-cognition is allowed to account for the effects that the Jedi having the pre-cognition will have, you open the door for potential 'time travel grandfather' style paradoxes.

[SirNitram]

It could beat Necronlords original idea though, because the force is mystical and might see beyond the feint to the true lethal move. That a jedi could fend off if prepared, but not two, three or four attacks that are all genuine.

It's not a feint that would be if it planned that ahead of time, it's intended, by the drone, to be a real shot, the drone, but as all things are not predestined (or if they are, the Jedi can't see them all) in Star Wars, it simply changes what it's doing when it sees the jedi move.

This, to me, is the key distinction. The drones last 'nano or whatever second' adjustment is a response to the effects of the Jedis pre-cognition. It would not have happened had the pre-cognition not occurred.

If Jedi pre-cognition is allowed to account for the effects that the Jedi having the pre-cognition will have, you open the door for potential 'time travel grandfather' style paradoxes.

You are aware that the possibility for paradoxes, under one interpretation of our understanding of time and space, is not a limiting factor that declares something impossible?

[NecronLord]

It doesn't need to be a paradox. If he moves to block the second shot instead, the drone will calcualte that he's not going to be able to block the first one, and go through with it.

[petesampras]

It's not a feint that would be if it planned that ahead of time, it's intended, by the drone, to be a real shot, the drone, but as all things are not predestined (or if they are, the Jedi can't see them all) in Star Wars, it simply changes what it's doing when it sees the jedi move.

This, to me, is the key distinction. The drones last 'nano or whatever second' adjustment is a response to the effects of the Jedis pre-cognition. It would not have happened had the pre-cognition not occurred.

If Jedi pre-cognition is allowed to account for the effects that the Jedi having the pre-cognition will have, you open the door for potential 'time travel grandfather' style paradoxes.

You are aware that the possibility for paradoxes, under one interpretation of our understanding of time and space, is not a limiting factor that declares something impossible?

Putting it another way...


Assumption -> I can predict any event that will happen to me tomorrow.

I predict that I get hit by a bus on 'whatever' street.

I hence avoid 'whatever' street and don't get hit by a bus.

Therefore I cannot predict any event that will happen to me tomorrow.

Contradiction, therefore assumption was logially unsound.


Alternate Assumption -> I can predict any event that would have happened to me tomorrow had I not had the prediction.

This seems, to me, the most powerful pre-cognition without causing a contradiction.

[The Grim Squeaker]

If you're talking about out-reacting the jedi, you are going to need something with stupidly fast reactions, be it a Necron Lord with a time-manipulator, or a Roston Warrior Robot.

Don't exagerate, an opponent would need to be faster than the Jedi could react (Probably low milli-seconds), not faster than the Jedi can think (30 m/s based on nerve impulses).
A Exaple of this is Samurai Jack, he may not have pre cog but is stupidly faster than your average (Non CW) Jedi, and he could probably overwhelm a Jedi through strength alone, yet Superman would run circles around him, as would a culture drone.

A large problem with pre-cog is that we generally see it used agaisnt something that cannot change in mid flight, a Blaster bolt will arrive always in point D, but a light saber can change posiiton to point D, E or change it's position again to point F.

[NecronLord]

If you're talking about out-reacting the jedi, you are going to need something with stupidly fast reactions, be it a Necron Lord with a time-manipulator, or a Roston Warrior Robot.

Don't exagerate, an opponent would need to be faster than the Jedi could react (Probably low milli-seconds), not faster than the Jedi can think (30 m/s based on nerve impulses).

Are you quoting the wrong thing there?

[The Grim Squeaker]

No, I thought that your statement was a little too exagerated and wanted to state my opinion on the fact that you do not need to be a culture drone to speed blitz a jedi or attack fast enough to overcome their pre-cog

[NecronLord]

No, I thought that your statement was a little too exagerated and wanted to state my opinion on the fact that you do not need to be a culture drone to speed blitz a jedi or attack fast enough to overcome their pre-cog

Perhaps not, but I was making a point with such an opponent for clarity. I don't particularly fancy trying to define just how fast one would have to be.

[Darth Wong]

If you're talking about out-reacting the jedi, you are going to need something with stupidly fast reactions, be it a Necron Lord with a time-manipulator, or a Roston Warrior Robot.

Don't exagerate, an opponent would need to be faster than the Jedi could react (Probably low milli-seconds), not faster than the Jedi can think (30 m/s based on nerve impulses).

Ahem ... if a Jedi is well-attuned to the Force, his effective reaction time can be less than 0 seconds.

[Noble Ire]

Assumption -> I can predict any event that will happen to me tomorrow.

I predict that I get hit by a bus on 'whatever' street.

I hence avoid 'whatever' street and don't get hit by a bus.

Therefore I cannot predict any event that will happen to me tomorrow.

Contradiction, therefore assumption was logially unsound.


Alternate Assumption -> I can predict any event that would have happened to me tomorrow had I not had the prediction.

This seems, to me, the most powerful pre-cognition without causing a contradiction

Jedi precog becomes increasingly fallible the farther ahead you looked, possibly due to your own actions. Yoda says as much. However, within the seconds that a Jedi could predict something in combat, not as much is likely to change, making his prediction far more viable.

[Hotfoot]

I think the key point here is that while a Jedi's pre-cog can give them a reaction time beyond normal comprehension, they are still limited by how fast they can physically move.

If I have the reflexes to strike two blows, each one in a different location, if those blows are farther apart than a jedi can move in the time between the blows, his pre-cog is simply not going to be effective. He can see it coming, but he still has to choose between blocking blow #1 and blow #2. Hence, one of the blows will hit.

However, if your blows are all tightly-grouped, the chances that the jedi can better react to the blows increases.

Say you've got to lasers, each one propegates at the speed of light as expected, and for whatever reason, can be blocked by a lightsaber. You fire them with a very brief duration, as soon as laser #1 shuts off, laser #2 activates. Laser #1 was aimed at the jedi's head, laser #2 is aimed at his leg. The difference in time is infinitesmal, and while the jedi can see it coming, he will almost certainly not be able to block the second shot unless he can move his saber from target point A to target point B almost instantly.

Of course, that said, if the events are withing the Jedi's ability to move, he should be fine, assuming he's attuned with the force enough to accurately predict the events. After that, it's just determining the limits at which a Jedi can move, and how "Strength" in the force alters things.

[Darth Wong]

Say you've got to lasers, each one propegates at the speed of light as expected, and for whatever reason, can be blocked by a lightsaber. You fire them with a very brief duration, as soon as laser #1 shuts off, laser #2 activates. Laser #1 was aimed at the jedi's head, laser #2 is aimed at his leg. The difference in time is infinitesmal, and while the jedi can see it coming, he will almost certainly not be able to block the second shot unless he can move his saber from target point A to target point B almost instantly.

Or he can move his leg while using the sabre to block the shot coming at his head (or vice versa).

[Surlethe]

Is it worth considering the Jedi reaction time to the precognition itself? I think that's what people are saying here, but it's not been outright stated. A Jedi will precognize, certainly, but he will only be able to react to the stimulus that precognition gives within physical reflexes.

[Darth Wong]

Is it worth considering the Jedi reaction time to the precognition itself? I think that's what people are saying here, but it's not been outright stated. A Jedi will precognize, certainly, but he will only be able to react to the stimulus that precognition gives within physical reflexes.

If the Force is guiding him, it's not a matter of thinking about what he's seeing and then reacting to it in a normal manner.

[Surlethe]

Is it worth considering the Jedi reaction time to the precognition itself? I think that's what people are saying here, but it's not been outright stated. A Jedi will precognize, certainly, but he will only be able to react to the stimulus that precognition gives within physical reflexes.

If the Force is guiding him, it's not a matter of thinking about what he's seeing and then reacting to it in a normal manner.

Point. And that should settle the question, since heretofore people have implicitly based their objections to precognition on human reaction times, rather than the fact the Force is guiding the Jedi. The question in determining outcome in a battle then relies upon the ability of a Jedi to relax conscious control and allow the Force to guide him.

[LordShaithis]

Hypothetical scenario: Obi-Wan Kenobi is fighting Darth Vader. Through an Act of Thread, however, this isn't the usual Vader. No, this version is a little different. He has all of his usual powers, except for precognition. That power is gone. But to make up for it, he now somehow has super speed and reflexes which he can activate at will. He can drop a coin and watch it lazily drift toward the floor, for example. To him, it feels like he's moving normally in an extraordinarily slow universe.

In a scenario like this, where everything else is more or less equal and it's purely a contest of uberspeed versus precognition, I'll take the speed everytime. You can turn the contest into an endless repetition of...

"Vader will hit him on the left."
"But Obi will forsee that and guard his left!"
"Then Vader will decide to hit him on the right."
"But Obi will have forseen that too, and will guard the right instead!"

...over and over, ad infinitum, but the bottom line is that the guy with the speed is never going to calmly walk into his opponent's sword, just because it's "forseen".

[The Grim Squeaker]

Don't exagerate, an opponent would need to be faster than the Jedi could react (Probably low milli-seconds), not faster than the Jedi can think (30 m/s based on nerve impulses).

Ahem ... if a Jedi is well-attuned to the Force, his effective reaction time can be less than 0 seconds.

I know that, but I seriously doubt the fact that Jedi can move their arms as fast as human nerve impulses, if i'm mistaken based on blaster bolt deflection speed then please correct me for my misinterpretation.

[Darth Wong]

Don't exagerate, an opponent would need to be faster than the Jedi could react (Probably low milli-seconds), not faster than the Jedi can think (30 m/s based on nerve impulses).

Ahem ... if a Jedi is well-attuned to the Force, his effective reaction time can be less than 0 seconds.

I know that, but I seriously doubt the fact that Jedi can move their arms as fast as human nerve impulses, if i'm mistaken based on blaster bolt deflection speed then please correct me for my misinterpretation.

Jedi can move their arms faster if necessary; their movements are Force-assisted. Do you honestly not understand that they are effectively superhuman thanks to the Force? How do you explain their ability to go jumping up several stories and hurtling all over the place?

[LordShaithis]

Which is why Obi-Wan got his ass kicked in a fistfight with Jango Fett.

[Ford Prefect]

Jedi can move their arms faster if necessary; their movements are Force-assisted. Do you honestly not understand that they are effectively superhuman thanks to the Force? How do you explain their ability to go jumping up several stories and hurtling all over the place?

Death is not questioning their superhuman abilities, but whether they can move as fast as neural impulses. He seems to have missed that the Jedi themselves do not 'see' the event before hand and react to it, but rather the Force simply moves the body to intercept the incoming object, person, whatever.

However, it must have limits, and it would be nice to determine what they are, otherwise I could simply say that Jedi precog can trump the Shrike.

[Hotfoot]

Or he can move his leg while using the sabre to block the shot coming at his head (or vice versa).

I suppose that is true for that specific example, but what I was attempting to illustrate was that it seems that it would at least be possible to overpower the jedi's precog by simply acting faster than the jedi can act himself. Say instead of his head and his leg, you have three shots all coming in at his chest, each one almost immediately after the other. While the jedi might be able to block two with his saber, the third should still stike true, unless the jedi can move at speeds approaching that of light.

Part of the problem, I think, is that we are now entering issues of Causality. If I don't fire my lightspeed lasers until I know they are lined up with the Jedi or his respective body part, then how could the jedi move to avoid them? It is possible for the jedi to simply move out of the way, but if my reflexes are superior to the jedi's, then I should be able to track his movements faster than he can make them, right?

This is a really nasty problem to figure out.

[LordShaithis]

Jedi precog is... spotty at times. Otherwise Jango should never have landed a blow against Obi-Wan, among other things.

[Hotfoot]

Well I presume for this example we are using a Jedi who has hit the "zone" as far as precog goes, and is catching things damn well.

[Darth Wong]

Which is why Obi-Wan got his ass kicked in a fistfight with Jango Fett.

You've never had a bad day? Never fucked up a simple math calculation that you should get easily? Never misspelled a word? Never tried to catch a ball that is easily within your grasp and failed? Never got into a mental fog and had problems for a few hours?

Whenever you're talking about people, variability enters into the equation. If you don't understand that, I can't help you.

[LordShaithis]

Leaving aside SOD, it was an odious bit of Fett-wanking. If Obi had displayed such poor ability in a typical battle against blaster-wielding droids, he'd have been shot to pieces.

That said, we've never seen Jedi moving their arms "faster than a nerve impulse" as mentioned above. At least not that I'm aware of. I'm under the impression that except for the occasional super-sprint (ala the beginning of TPM) the Jedi aren't really that much faster than a well-trained human. /shrug