So how racist are the people around you?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2005-11-23 03:58pm

"Everyone's a little bit racist."

We hear things like that, but I figured we may as well compare notes. In your personal life, among friends and family and co-workers, how much racism is there when only people of your own race are in the room? Who are they racist against?

Among white people in the suburbs of Detroit, there's some occasional grumbling about what the "niggers" and "ragheads" are doing. But at the same time, I've heard someone who had done such grumbling in the past volunteer to speak out against his boss, when she talked to him about "those people" and made it clear she wanted to run a black co-worker out of his job.

There seems to be an unwritten rule that idle speech doesn't matter when it's only white people in the room, but that actually acting on such opinions is unacceptable. The above work incident was met with "Wow, what the hell is this, the thirties?" reactions by the "slightly racist" white people in the office, for example. It's a weird dichotomy.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-11-23 04:03pm

I often make comments that people would consider "racist", but mostly out of jest.

I don't believe that I am racist at any "real" level.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2005-11-23 04:06pm

WV is 97% white, 2% African-American, and 1% "Other".

There are still 'black neighborhoods' in the cities, and many smaller towns have generations of blacks living and growing up in just one or two hollers, away from the 'townspeople'.

Growing up in such a society, yes, I've got some racist in me. I have never met a black man that I was sexually attracted to. I see nothing sexy about Denzil Washington or Will Smith. (Prince, on the other hand, who's a very light-skinned Latino-Black, was dreamily exotic to my 16yr old mind)

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-11-23 04:13pm

I've noticed that most people aren't really racist, they just tend to classify people into social groupings, at least in my area. I'm not typically seen as one of the hispanic kids, because I don't hang out with them, or dress like them, and I'm not an ass hole the way they are. I'm also not racist against white kids the way they are. So I'm not classified as one of them. I'm the whitest hispanic guy you'll find.

I've always figured that people classified people into different stereotypes based on how they dressed and acted, not actually on race. At least that's how it works here. I do the same thing, because it usually isn't wrong, but many would consider it racism.

The Guid · Post by **The Guid** » 2005-11-23 04:15pm

Where I used to be - at a UK boarding school it was actually pretty rampant in a moderately underhand way. Nobody believed they were racists as such because they knew that that was bad but they still had peculiar opinions about "Pakis" and the like.

Now? At University? I couldn't hazard a guess because I just haven't come across it at all.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-11-23 04:22pm

Actually, I'd say more than anything else, I'd be "class-ist" - and with good fucking reason. Spend some time around the "lower class" areas of Tasmania (or Australia in general) and you'd see why.

Its not crime, or drugs or anything like that - its laziness. The bone idleness displayed by some within that community that makes me sick.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-11-23 04:32pm

LadyTevar wrote:WV is 97% white, 2% African-American, and 1% "Other".

There are still 'black neighborhoods' in the cities, and many smaller towns have generations of blacks living and growing up in just one or two hollers, away from the 'townspeople'.

Growing up in such a society, yes, I've got some racist in me. I have never met a black man that I was sexually attracted to. I see nothing sexy about Denzil Washington or Will Smith. (Prince, on the other hand, who's a very light-skinned Latino-Black, was dreamily exotic to my 16yr old mind)

That's unfortunate. Rebecca says if she weren't married, she would do both Denzel Washington and Will Smith. At the same time.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-11-23 04:32pm

weemadando wrote:Its not crime, or drugs or anything like that - its laziness. The bone idleness displayed by some within that community that makes me sick.

You should come to Canada then

. Our idiot immigration policy lures people with incredible skillsets who end up driving taxicabs, shovelling snow and waiting tables. All because they don't have any "Canadian experience", in other words you look too paki or black or chink so we're not going to hire you even though you're obviously highly qualified. I work with a man who is a Mechanical Engineer with a degree from China, a hard worker, and he makes... pizzas and fries with me part time. Terrible. In other words, Canadian immigrants are really hardworking and they make up the lower "class".

Brian

Post by **Surlethe** » 2005-11-23 04:39pm

The people around me are probably very low-level racist: they say things about "those people", and they group people based on skin color, but don't act or -- AFAIK -- think anything beyond those groupings.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-11-23 04:41pm

brianeyci wrote:
weemadando wrote:Its not crime, or drugs or anything like that - its laziness. The bone idleness displayed by some within that community that makes me sick.
You should come to Canada then . Our idiot immigration policy lures people with incredible skillsets who end up driving taxicabs, shovelling snow and waiting tables. All because they don't have any "Canadian experience", in other words you look too paki or black or chink so we're not going to hire you even though you're obviously highly qualified. I work with a man who is a Mechanical Engineer with a degree from China, a hard worker, and he makes... pizzas and fries with me part time. Terrible. In other words, Canadian immigrants are really hardworking and they make up the lower "class".

Brian

That's not necessarily racism; that's the practical reality of business. Think about it; if some guy says that he spent 5 years working at Sun Hong Manufacturing in China, how difficult will it be to call up this place and confirm what he's saying? Hell, you can't even speak Chinese, and the call is halfway around the world so you'll have to place it in the middle of the night. If another guy walks in and has 5 years experience at Absolute Tool and Die in Ohio, that's easy to check.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2005-11-23 04:41pm

Darth Wong wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:WV is 97% white, 2% African-American, and 1% "Other".

There are still 'black neighborhoods' in the cities, and many smaller towns have generations of blacks living and growing up in just one or two hollers, away from the 'townspeople'.

Growing up in such a society, yes, I've got some racist in me. I have never met a black man that I was sexually attracted to. I see nothing sexy about Denzil Washington or Will Smith. (Prince, on the other hand, who's a very light-skinned Latino-Black, was dreamily exotic to my 16yr old mind)
That's unfortunate. Rebecca says if she weren't married, she would do both Denzel Washington and Will Smith. At the same time.

I see the lack as a part of racism on my part. Hearing my grandma talking about a white woman who took up with a black man as 'shameful' might have been part of it.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-11-23 04:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:That's not necessarily racism; that's the practical reality of business. Think about it; if some guy says that he spent 5 years working at Sun Hong Manufacturing in China, how difficult will it be to call up this place and confirm what he's saying? Hell, you can't even speak Chinese, and the call is halfway around the world so you'll have to place it in the middle of the night. If another guy walks in and has 5 years experience at Absolute Tool and Die in Ohio, that's easy to check.

I saw a documentary of one guy who applied for 4500 jobs (yes that's not a typo) in his field. He was a high-level manager or something. He's suing the government for telling him during his interview that he would have no problem getting back into his field. With 4500 jobs there has to be some racism in there.

If it is just a problem of "business reality", then at the very least they should be able to get entry-level positions in their field. You can head on down to St. George and Bloor to the Comparative Education Service at the University of Toronto and they can evaluate your diploma and tell you your Canadian equivalent. I'm sure a lot of people do that, I see people lining up all the time for that.

You have an accent, you don't have a degree from a Canadian University (even though the standards of your degree may be higher) then too bad so sad you're passed over. One of the reasons I'm glad my dad forced us to speak English when we were kids rather than speak Chinese. I suck at Chinese and I'm good at English, but I'd rather be that than the other way around.

Brian

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-11-23 04:51pm

My brother's in-laws have displayed some pretty disturbing racist trends in conversation recently, disturbing to me at least. Not the brightest people, my brother's in-laws...

In my immediate family, all the old-time, blatantly proud racism has pretty much died out with my grandparent's generation; but my mom's mom is still around at age 92, and racism is just one of her many, many character flaws.

Mom, to her infinite credit, has held aspects of her upbringing in contempt since long before I was born. The Baptist Church, racist mentality, that uniquely Southern willful ignorance; she burns with embarrasment that any of it was ever part of her life.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-11-23 04:52pm

brianeyci wrote:You have an accent, you don't have a degree from a Canadian University (even though the standards of your degree may be higher) then too bad so sad you're passed over.

I hate to break it to you, but communications skills are pretty important. A lot of companies are reluctant to hire people who can't speak English clearly, and can you really blame them? Have you ever tried working with a coworker who speaks really badly broken English? It can be very tiresome and frustrating, and it saps productivity.

As for education, one must keep in mind that without PEO membership, an engineer is not legally licensed to practice engineering in this province. And you only get PEO membership by applying and going through proper channels, one of which is writing an ethics exam (if your university has been assessed and accredited) or a full suite of exams (if your university has not been assessed and accredited). This engineer acquaintance of yours has apparently not gone through these channels; if he did, it would be easier to get work. Simply saying that you've gone to university in China doesn't mean much to the average employer, who is probably unwilling or perhaps even unable to verify this claim due to the logistical difficulties of confirming any claim based in China.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-11-23 05:07pm

Darth Wong wrote:
brianeyci wrote:You have an accent, you don't have a degree from a Canadian University (even though the standards of your degree may be higher) then too bad so sad you're passed over.
I hate to break it to you, but communications skills are pretty important. A lot of companies are reluctant to hire people who can't speak English clearly, and can you really blame them? Have you ever tried working with a coworker who speaks really badly broken English? It can be very tiresome and frustrating, and it saps productivity.

I know that communications skills are important, and I have worked with people with bad English skills. Of course fast food is not the same, I imagine it is much different when you have to discuss materials science rather than where to put the fries, but I know what you mean.

The man who applied for 4500 jobs was very articulate though and had a thick Indian accent. Maybe it's media sensationalism, but you hear of this problem all the time. If it's a business reality, Canada should have no business luring people who think they'll have an easy time with high skillsets but have to end up driving taxicabs or shoveling snow.

As for education, one must keep in mind that without PEO membership, an engineer is not legally licensed to practice engineering in this province. And you only get PEO membership by applying and going through proper channels, one of which is writing an ethics exam (if your university has been assessed and accredited) or a full suite of exams (if your university has not been assessed and accredited). This engineer acquaintance of yours has apparently not gone through these channels; if he did, it would be easier to get work. Simply saying that you've gone to university in China doesn't mean much to the average employer, who is probably unwilling or perhaps even unable to verify this claim due to the logistical difficulties of confirming any claim based in China.

I understand this, and I actually questioned him about this. I'm not sure what he did or how he did it and I didn't pry because it seemed to be a sensitive topic. He is resigned to his current path, which is to stay at the racetrack and then move over to the hotel. He's taking college courses in hotel management now and that's where he's headed. He's happy where he is, and happy with what he's doing. Meanwhile he works at call centers for even more spare cash. His communications skills can be that bad if he's a telemarketer. He has a really thick Chinese accent though. I think he's accepted that he'll be racially discriminated as de facto. What makes it worse is one day he tried complaining about some lazy workers to a higher level manager, and then a manager came in the next day and had a huge meeting and told everybody not to be racist. Of course, everybody knew who made the racist charge, so he's ostracised and now he thinks all Canadians are racist and he doesn't have a chance. He's happy where he's going though so I'm not going to pry. Besides I have serious doubts as to the actual competence of his level of education... he told me he took a test for being a Rogers Cable serviceman and he failed (it was highly technical but he had time to study before). That doesn't sound like an academic to me. Either someone who has severe problems with English to the point he'll fail a professional exam, or someone whose education is a shit education.

The PEO thing is the same as Teacher Certification or medicine. Teachers, doctors and engineers are being lured here with promises of a good life then being told they can't practise. You're right, it might be a business reality or educational standard rather than racism though. I still don't like it.

Brian

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2005-11-23 05:08pm

When my parents immagrated to America, both of them had to get Masters degrees in an American university, or else they couldn't get jobs.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-11-23 05:46pm

The only bit of racism that I'm personally aware of in my life is that my mom is not fond at all of Palestinians or other people of Arab descent (she doesn't seem to have much of a problem with non-Arab Muslims). I think that stems more from the fact that we have family in Israel than anything else.

She's also not very fond of black people, but that's because her personal experience with the kids she had to teach in Brooklyn has led to her seeing some really bad stinkers. The year before she retired, a kid in her class set fire to his desk. DURING class.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-11-23 05:47pm

brianeyci wrote:The man who applied for 4500 jobs was very articulate though and had a thick Indian accent. Maybe it's media sensationalism, but you hear of this problem all the time. If it's a business reality, Canada should have no business luring people who think they'll have an easy time with high skillsets but have to end up driving taxicabs or shoveling snow.

Part of the problem is that they often don't realize the importance of acquiring language skills before coming here. Another part of the problem is the cultural barrier, and by that I don't mean "culture" as a PC codeword for "race"; I mean things like understanding how to conduct oneself in an interview, and how to apply for jobs properly, and all kinds of unwritten rules (for example, a lot of older people from Hong Kong often believe that it's perfectly acceptable for a manager to treat subordinates like shit while being transparently obsequious to higher-ups, because their society is unapologetically class-hierarchical, but if you pull that shit in a North American factory, the guys on the floor will find a way to fuck you).

The guy who applied for 4500 jobs obviously didn't know how to job-search. There's no way you could apply for that many jobs in a reasonable amount of time while doing the proper research for each one. I've job-searched a few times, and you have to do your homework on each company you submit an application to, if you want to have even a vague hope of success. Applying to a company without any personal contacts within the company is already difficult, and if you are just firing off hundreds or thousands of cookie-cutter resumes and cover letters, you can pretty much guarantee that all of them will fail.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-11-23 05:49pm

We're pretty horrible to each other actually. It's meant as a joke, but the things we say are really rotten when you come down to it. When i first reported here, it really came a a shock to hear people talk to each other the way they do. It's casual too

"Hey man, pass me the white binder"
"Why's it gotta be a white binder?"
"Cuz if ain't white it ain't right"

And yet since its meant as a joke, and everyone knows its meant as a joke, its accepted. One time we had a new guy try and join in, and because he was new we didn't know for certain he was joiing and he pushed the bounds of what was acceptable, even for us. End result was he apologized, but he still got his ass kicked in berthing.

And there is definately a lot of institutionalized racism in the higher ups. I don't get it, the military was deseggregated before the civillian world was, yet it definately lags behind in equal treatment. Maybe its because in the military its easier to abuse your power and get away with it.

Korvan · Post by **Korvan** » 2005-11-23 06:06pm

Darth Wong wrote:The guy who applied for 4500 jobs obviously didn't know how to job-search. There's no way you could apply for that many jobs in a reasonable amount of time while doing the proper research for each one. I've job-searched a few times, and you have to do your homework on each company you submit an application to, if you want to have even a vague hope of success. Applying to a company without any personal contacts within the company is already difficult, and if you are just firing off hundreds or thousands of cookie-cutter resumes and cover letters, you can pretty much guarantee that all of them will fail.

Absolutely true. I spend several months after graduation for uni fruitlessly sending out hundreds of carbon-copied cover letters and resumes to any job add that even mentioned computers. The first application I customized and put a little effort into landed me the job.

As for racism amoung my peers, I've got a couple of friends who don't have too many good things to say about first nations people. One of them was an RCMP officer in a small town in northern BC, the other spent several years in the yukon as a kid where he was beaten up on a daily basis for being the only white kid in his class. My dad will occasionally spout out some nonsense about immigrints taking jobs away and he used to speak really loud and slow to anyone who didn't look white. He doesn't do that anymore after being embarressed a couple of times by people who spoke clearer english than himself.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2005-11-23 06:22pm

Zero132132 wrote:I've noticed that most people aren't really racist, they just tend to classify people into social groupings, at least in my area. I'm not typically seen as one of the hispanic kids, because I don't hang out with them, or dress like them, and I'm not an ass hole the way they are. I'm also not racist against white kids the way they are. So I'm not classified as one of them. I'm the whitest hispanic guy you'll find.

I've always figured that people classified people into different stereotypes based on how they dressed and acted, not actually on race. At least that's how it works here. I do the same thing, because it usually isn't wrong, but many would consider it racism.

I'm going to raise my hand here, my bit of racism is I think best described as a classification of sorts. If a black guy is dressed respectably and speaks english I could care less what his skin color is, but another black man who dresses 'gangsta' and speaks some kind of mockery of english is flagged as the race black, complete with all the stereotypes that go with it.

If you look or act like your stereotype I tend to think of you that way, if you act like someone I could talk to and respect then I don't care what you are or where you come from.

Zor · Post by **Zor** » 2005-11-23 07:01pm

There are some anti-semites and some anti native sentiment in some of the less well off parts of winnipeg though real racism has yet to surface (beyond one neo nazi a few years back, who got arrested).

Zor

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-11-23 07:15pm

Almost everyone is racist if someone starts talking about pakistanis being bastards when there's just white people in the room, in my experience, anyway. Blacks too, sometimes. I've only witnessed one person being antisemitic, homophobia is still quite popular, however.

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2005-11-23 07:26pm

Darth Wong wrote:That's not necessarily racism; that's the practical reality of business. Think about it; if some guy says that he spent 5 years working at Sun Hong Manufacturing in China, how difficult will it be to call up this place and confirm what he's saying? Hell, you can't even speak Chinese, and the call is halfway around the world so you'll have to place it in the middle of the night. If another guy walks in and has 5 years experience at Absolute Tool and Die in Ohio, that's easy to check.

I know most Canadian Universities will not accept credits from US Universities and that many Canadian employers will only accept Canadian degrees. It's frustrated a number of my friends, at least.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2005-11-23 07:34pm

I'm going to raise my hand here, my bit of racism is I think best described as a classification of sorts. If a black guy is dressed respectably and speaks english I could care less what his skin color is, but another black man who dresses 'gangsta' and speaks some kind of mockery of english is flagged as the race black, complete with all the stereotypes that go with it.

If you look or act like your stereotype I tend to think of you that way, if you act like someone I could talk to and respect then I don't care what you are or where you come from

ditto for me, I really don't care at all what skin color you are, I care ALOT on how you dress and act, that is how I classify people as well. the behavior not the skin color.