So how racist are the people around you?

[SirNitram]

Race is more of a human psychological construct than a hard scientific biological one. Therefore I tend to think that having existing races intermarry to the point of being physically indistinguishable wouldn't really defeat racism. The Irish are caucasian, after all, but that didn't stop the English from regarding them as savages. Koreans and Japanese are both asian, but they have their own long-standing history of ethnic hatred.

In a society where racist attitudes didn't exist, physical differences wouldn't matter. In a society where racist attitudes prevail, almost any difference is enough to provide an excuse for discrimination.

You're confusing Racism and Nationalism, which are seperate things. One is from fear of unknown/different things(Racism), the other is from long held, often completely ridiculous, greivances.

[LordShaithis]

If I recall correctly, the English regarded the Irish as "savages" in just the same way they regarded American and African natives. They were even made to work on large plantations that were an obvious prototype for those used in the New World, although I believe the Irish ones were unprofitable and didn't last long for that reason.

In any event, racism and nationalism are both cases of human beings seizing upon arbitrary differences as an excuse to elevate themselves above those they consider inferior. As long as that attitude pervades, you could make everyone identical, and they'll still find reasons to split off and treat each other like shit.

[The Guid]

Race is more of a human psychological construct than a hard scientific biological one. Therefore I tend to think that having existing races intermarry to the point of being physically indistinguishable wouldn't really defeat racism. The Irish are caucasian, after all, but that didn't stop the English from regarding them as savages. Koreans and Japanese are both asian, but they have their own long-standing history of ethnic hatred.

In a society where racist attitudes didn't exist, physical differences wouldn't matter. In a society where racist attitudes prevail, almost any difference is enough to provide an excuse for discrimination.

You're confusing Racism and Nationalism, which are seperate things. One is from fear of unknown/different things(Racism), the other is from long held, often completely ridiculous, greivances.

I don't think that's quite right, certainly not in the English and Irish case. The English actually have few, if any, grievances towards the Irish from Eire - they may dislike us for the whole colonial past thing but the English see the Irish as beer drinking, rather happy if totally and utterly stupid nation - a racist belief. Racism is defined pretty much as a tendency to sterotype a "race" and may not be linked at all to fear in my opinion.

[SirNitram]

If I recall correctly, the English regarded the Irish as "savages" in just the same way they regarded American and African natives. They were even made to work on large plantations that were an obvious prototype for those used in the New World, although I believe the Irish ones were unprofitable and didn't last long for that reason.

In any event, racism and nationalism are both cases of human beings seizing upon arbitrary differences as an excuse to elevate themselves above those they consider inferior. As long as that attitude pervades, you could make everyone identical, and they'll still find reasons to split off and treat each other like shit.

No. Irish were quite readily regarded as worse than blacks; a black brought onto British soil was a freed man and a subject after around 1760, an Irishman was still a peice of trash.

Your rush to generalize misses the fundamental point. My culture crapped on the Irish because we had been steadily crapping on each other and killing each other until one finally was strong enough to take the other behind the shed and fuck them up nine ways to Sunday.

We treated the blacks like scum because, well, they were wierd, different, and uncivilized. We were far faster to stop crapping on them than the Irish, because racism is based on fear of the unknown; one could state nationalism comes from knowing too much(Like, oh, what it means when an Irish rebel has a powerdrill.).

[SirNitram]

I don't think that's quite right, certainly not in the English and Irish case. The English actually have few, if any, grievances towards the Irish from Eire - they may dislike us for the whole colonial past thing but the English see the Irish as beer drinking, rather happy if totally and utterly stupid nation - a racist belief. Racism is defined pretty much as a tendency to sterotype a "race" and may not be linked at all to fear in my opinion.

I'm referring more historically here; there were many periods Irish were seen as worse than negros/darkies. They were crappy workers, for one. Have we gotten better? Yes, I think so. But it's a worthwhile example.

[GuppyShark]

Personally, I'll admit that when I see an Aboriginal man my first instinct is fear. I have never had a pleasant experience with one - usually they're either try to hit me up for change, stumbling around the city drunk and yelling abuse at passersby, or they're mugging my friends. They're such a small segment of the population that these few visible louts tar the entire race. In this case, it's really Pavlovian response.

Africans are a whole different story, for some reason. They're usually polite and well-dressed.

Teenagers of various races like to get into little gang wars - I know a Serb who was part of some enormous pan-ethnic alliance that used to go up against Asian gangs all the time.

Noone I know has a bad word to say about homosexuals, even if we do use terms connotating sodomy as generic insults among friends.

In Australia, the ethnic group I hear trashed most often is Americans.

[Danny Bhoy]

I don't think that's quite right, certainly not in the English and Irish case. The English actually have few, if any, grievances towards the Irish from Eire - they may dislike us for the whole colonial past thing but the English see the Irish as beer drinking, rather happy if totally and utterly stupid nation - a racist belief. Racism is defined pretty much as a tendency to sterotype a "race" and may not be linked at all to fear in my opinion.

I'm referring more historically here; there were many periods Irish were seen as worse than negros/darkies. They were crappy workers, for one. Have we gotten better? Yes, I think so. But it's a worthwhile example.

Yes, Scots of Irish Catholic heritage in the West Coast of Scotland often refer to the "Whit school di ye gae tae?" recruitment of the early 20th century, as RCs mostly went to denominational (RC) schools then. Although it is difficult to say for sure if the discrimination was against Catholics or specifically Irish Catholics.

[LordShaithis]

We treated the blacks like scum because, well, they were wierd, different, and uncivilized. We were far faster to stop crapping on them than the Irish, because racism is based on fear of the unknown; one could state nationalism comes from knowing too much(Like, oh, what it means when an Irish rebel has a powerdrill.).

When one group of people treats another group as subhuman, debating which "-ism" to call it is mere semantics, and rather irrelevant to the guy getting his ass kicked while the boss screams "Back in the field, you savage!"

My point is that people always divide themselves up by some arbitrary standard, and then set about treating one another like shit. Skin color and other racial traits are immediately and vividly obvious, and thus have been an extremely popular arbitrary standard to use.

But I've never seen any evidence that a lack of such visible traits will actually result in people treating one another better. Rather it seems they'll just find something else to use as an excuse to shit on one another.

Take this quote from Warren Beatty's character in the movie Bulworth:

All we need is a voluntary, free-spirited, open-ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color.

If a society is pervaded with the opinion that prejudicial hate is acceptable, making them all the same color will just force them to find a different standard of hate. If a society marginalizes that opinion, it won't matter what color people are.

This sort of "Let's fuck until everyone is a uniform medium-brown, then we can all lynch each other over religion instead!" idea always strikes me as being painfully blind in regards to human nature.

[SirNitram]

We treated the blacks like scum because, well, they were wierd, different, and uncivilized. We were far faster to stop crapping on them than the Irish, because racism is based on fear of the unknown; one could state nationalism comes from knowing too much(Like, oh, what it means when an Irish rebel has a powerdrill.).

When one group of people treats another group as subhuman, debating which "-ism" to call it is mere semantics, and rather irrelevant to the guy getting his ass kicked while the boss screams "Back in the field, you savage!"

Wow, a useless, pithy phrase from a retard who couldn't contribute if his life depended on it. They spring from fundamentally different sources; only an imbecile would lump them together with no distinction.

My point is that people always divide themselves up by some arbitrary standard, and then set about treating one another like shit. Skin color and other racial traits are immediately and vividly obvious, and thus have been an extremely popular arbitrary standard to use.

Holy shit, welcome to several thousand years ago. Have you worked out stone tools too?

But I've never seen any evidence that a lack of such visible traits will actually result in people treating one another better. Rather it seems they'll just find something else to use as an excuse to shit on one another.

So you decided to use an example from a pair of countries who spent several hundred years murdering one another. That's not 'finding a reason', you dumb-shit. That's what's popularly known as a bloody, violent feud.

Take this quote from Warren Beatty's character in the movie Bulworth:

More pithy bullshit.

If a society is pervaded with the opinion that prejudicial hate is acceptable, making them all the same color will just force them to find a different standard of hate. If a society marginalizes that opinion, it won't matter what color people are.

No shit. Where does this justify your idiotic strawman of reality that hate based on long-running national feuds is identical to racism?

This sort of "Let's fuck until everyone is a uniform medium-brown, then we can all lynch each other over religion instead!" idea always strikes me as being painfully blind in regards to human nature.

It's blind on basic genetics, as genetic uniformity is a good way to off a species. That does not, however, excuse your blatant imbecilic treatment of varieties of hatred as identical. It's willfully blind to just pigeonhole it together because different solutions are required for each. But you don't care about solutions, I'm suspecting.

[SirNitram]

Yes, Scots of Irish Catholic heritage in the West Coast of Scotland often refer to the "Whit school di ye gae tae?" recruitment of the early 20th century, as RCs mostly went to denominational (RC) schools then. Although it is difficult to say for sure if the discrimination was against Catholics or specifically Irish Catholics.

My understanding of the situation was that religion was just another scapegoat for the violence, which was English V. Irish. It was Hatfield and McCoy writ large, really, and it's something of a miracle it's defused to the degrees it has.

[Danny Bhoy]

Yes, Scots of Irish Catholic heritage in the West Coast of Scotland often refer to the "Whit school di ye gae tae?" recruitment of the early 20th century, as RCs mostly went to denominational (RC) schools then. Although it is difficult to say for sure if the discrimination was against Catholics or specifically Irish Catholics.

My understanding of the situation was that religion was just another scapegoat for the violence, which was English V. Irish. It was Hatfield and McCoy writ large, really, and it's something of a miracle it's defused to the degrees it has.

I recall reading in a book about the Old Firm and sectarianism in Scotland that sometime after the postwar period (50s or even early 60s) that there were some managers in the private sector who were under the impression that certain jobs in certain areas were closed off to Catholics or those with Catholic sounding names. Of course Glasgow Rangers FC from the Great War years onwards didn't knowingly sign Catholic playing staff until 1989 (a few non-practicing left footers were rumoured to have slipped through the "Whit school di ye gae tae" screening during the period).

[LordShaithis]

Blah blah blah, shrill pointless flaming.

So hundreds of years ago when an English planter looked at an Irishman and saw a savage who was only good for pushing a plow around, that was COMPLETELY different than a colonial planter looking at an African and thinking the exact same fucking thing?

Handwaving and jabbering about the motivations in each case doesn't even begin to address my point, which is that belonging to the same broadly-defined race will NOT keep one group of people from discriminating against another.

And your "Racism is because people fear what they do not understand!" line was a fucking joke the first time you said it. Where the hell did you hear thay sappy bullshit, a fucking sitcom? A redneck doesn't join the KKK because some Africans came in off a boat last week and he doesn't know what to make of them.

Unless a society widely holds the opinion that discrimination based on prejudice is unethical, they will find themselves a prejudice. Each will be different based on that society's situation, but they WILL find something.

[SirNitram]

Blah blah blah, shrill pointless flaming.

Observe the typical troll's response to a basic argument laden with profanity as is the SDNet standard: Try and play it off as 'pointless flaming' so you don't have to reply.

Shaithis, we ban people for that sort of shit.

So hundreds of years ago when an English planter looked at an Irishman and saw a savage who was only good for pushing a plow around, that was COMPLETELY different than a colonial planter looking at an African and thinking the exact same fucking thing?

Yes. Because the negro was an uncivilized savage who could be lifted up by Proper British Society. An Irishman was a fucking animal whose not gonna work a proper day in his fetid, stinking life, and is gonna turn on you first chance he gets.

But you oversimplify, so you don't get it.

Handwaving and jabbering about the motivations in each case doesn't even begin to address my point, which is that belonging to the same broadly-defined race will NOT keep one group of people from discriminating against another.

Never was my argument, you stupid peice of shit. The two terms exist for good reasons, which are missed by simple idiots who simplify things until there's no difference. Hell, there's no smell difference between many poisonous gases and pure oxygen. There must be no difference in your minimal mind.

And your "Racism is because people fear what they do not understand!" line was a fucking joke the first time you said it. Where the hell did you hear thay sappy bullshit, a fucking sitcom? A redneck doesn't join the KKK because some Africans came in off a boat last week and he doesn't know what to make of them.

'Sappy bullshit'? Are you such a sheltered, utterly retarded fellow that you don't grok that people hate and fear anything not from their tiny, navel-gazing 'comfort zones'? Or is this just another of your pithy, useless attempts to dismiss actual evidence against your bullshit?

Unless a society widely holds the opinion that discrimination based on prejudice is unethical, they will find themselves a prejudice. Each will be different based on that society's situation, but they WILL find something.

No shit. Because people hate everything that's not familiar. The 'unknown' innately fits into this. But I'm sure you'll continue to argue you know better than thousands of years of evidence.

[Zero]

The differences between nationalism and racism aren't a big fucking deal. The point is that even without racism, we find ways to segregate and seperate. The specifics aren't a big fucking deal. He's right that eliminating racism wouldn't really help a whole lot, in terms of segregation. We'd just fine new lines to seperate each other with. It's part of human nature to group people based on shared features. We don't have the mental capacity to recognize each and every stranger individually, so we group and generalize. It happens.

[SirNitram]

The differences between nationalism and racism aren't a big fucking deal. The point is that even without racism, we find ways to segregate and seperate. The specifics aren't a big fucking deal. He's right that eliminating racism wouldn't really help a whole lot, in terms of segregation. We'd just fine new lines to seperate each other with. It's part of human nature to group people based on shared features. We don't have the mental capacity to recognize each and every stranger individually, so we group and generalize. It happens.

Congratulations. You're illiterate. Because I've agreed people will continue to discriminate. Do you have some other useless post to make, re-iterating what I myself have said, or are you going to stop wasting time and bandwidth?

[The Guid]

But the harder those groups are to distibguish the less people are likely to do it - especially if they start intermingling and stop being seperate in terms of where they live and what they do. I think Sir Nitram's essential point (correct me if I am wrong) is that more mixed race couples and therefore mixed race children you have the harder it is for people to point and state that they are different.

I think also that people are being foolish for saying that all generalisations are as harmful as race. Racism can easily be accountable for huge death tolls across the many centuries of history particularly when people confused religion with race - such as in Nazi Germany. Sure, people will find ways to categorise people but its hardly as if there is a great history of "Emo kids" or "Goths" or "Geeks" being enslaved and killed by right wing groups is there?

Indeed, this is why so often problems seem to develop with minorities - when there is no interbreeding and no intercommunities - when "ghettos" develop whether by accident or by intention. Once there starts to be an area of the town given over mainly to a certain "race" or religion I think that is where the problems develop.

[Zero]

The differences between nationalism and racism aren't a big fucking deal. The point is that even without racism, we find ways to segregate and seperate. The specifics aren't a big fucking deal. He's right that eliminating racism wouldn't really help a whole lot, in terms of segregation. We'd just fine new lines to seperate each other with. It's part of human nature to group people based on shared features. We don't have the mental capacity to recognize each and every stranger individually, so we group and generalize. It happens.

Congratulations. You're illiterate. Because I've agreed people will continue to discriminate. Do you have some other useless post to make, re-iterating what I myself have said, or are you going to stop wasting time and bandwidth?

I was just trying to clarify what he said. I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a flying fuck about the specifics of the causation of nationalism and racism, and really, it's irrelevant to his essential point that eradicating racism won't matter. If you agree with that point, then quit arguing, because that's his point too, in case you're such a stupid shithead that you missed it. If you agree with my point, then why the fuck are you responding to me in any negative way at all?

This whole fucking bit of bullshit from you about the specifics as to the seperate causes of the different forms of segregation is irrelevant to the earlier point that some form of segregation will always fuck up whatever attempts at equality that we come up with. Why the fuck are you accusing me of wasting bandwidth when you've been carrying on a pointless debate for half a fucking page?

[SirNitram]

I think Sir Nitram's essential point (correct me if I am wrong) is that more mixed race couples and therefore mixed race children you have the harder it is for people to point and state that they are different.

Not really. I never advocated the 'Force interbreeding!' nonsense. The correct answer is to expose people to as many cultures and bodytypes and so forth as possible early on, thus making more people inside the 'familiar' territory. But people never asked my solution, just assumed I was supporting someone elses in true idiotic fashion.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Ok shitstain it us

they used to have signs that said "Irish need not apply", the Irish riotted during the civil war because they were afraid that freed slaves would take all the jobs that none wanted in New York. In the Deep south, they used the Irish were used for "scuicide jobs" because slaves we're too valuable. After the War the Chinese and the Irish were the primary construction crews for the railroad, as they were considered "disposable" and that was just in the united states.

[SirNitram]

Why the fuck are you accusing me of wasting bandwidth when you've been carrying on a pointless debate for half a fucking page?

Because you are simply repeating me and acting like this is some kind of point, you worthless sack of scrotal droppings. You are trying desperately for a point and failing, and then declaring you 'don't care' about my distinction. Well, here's news: Your personal opinion means jack shit. This is not 'Myths, Religion, and Happy Fun Rainbows' forum. Your subjective view on whether the difference matters is irrelevent.

[The Guid]

I think Sir Nitram's essential point (correct me if I am wrong) is that more mixed race couples and therefore mixed race children you have the harder it is for people to point and state that they are different.

Not really. I never advocated the 'Force interbreeding!' nonsense.

Neither did I. How on Earth did you think that I wanted to force people to interbreed?

The correct answer is to expose people to as many cultures and bodytypes and so forth as possible early on, thus making more people inside the 'familiar' territory.

I see what you mean and I have to agree.

But people never asked my solution, just assumed I was supporting someone elses in true idiotic fashion.

I know I really shouldn't care, but you aren't assuming that I made assumptions are you? I misunderstood exactly what you were going for but I believe that our posts are linked in terms of beliefs as to cause of racism and one of the ways it might fall away.

[Zero]

Why the fuck are you accusing me of wasting bandwidth when you've been carrying on a pointless debate for half a fucking page?

Because you are simply repeating me and acting like this is some kind of point, you worthless sack of scrotal droppings. You are trying desperately for a point and failing, and then declaring you 'don't care' about my distinction. Well, here's news: Your personal opinion means jack shit. This is not 'Myths, Religion, and Happy Fun Rainbows' forum. Your subjective view on whether the difference matters is irrelevent.

The difference doesn't matter. You already agreed with me that eliminating racism won't solve the problem, and that people will always find different ways to group people, and segregate, so what fucking relevance is it what specific ways people find to do this? Why the fuck does it matter to the initial point that eliminating racism won't eliminate the problem? What fantastical justification do you have for this you stupid fuck? Why the fuck does it matter? Because you say so?

[SirNitram]

I think Sir Nitram's essential point (correct me if I am wrong) is that more mixed race couples and therefore mixed race children you have the harder it is for people to point and state that they are different.

Not really. I never advocated the 'Force interbreeding!' nonsense.

Neither did I. How on Earth did you think that I wanted to force people to interbreed?

I thought the 'more mixed race couples' bit spawned from that. No worries, just a misunderstanding as you were trying to get it clarified.

The correct answer is to expose people to as many cultures and bodytypes and so forth as possible early on, thus making more people inside the 'familiar' territory.

I see what you mean and I have to agree.

But people never asked my solution, just assumed I was supporting someone elses in true idiotic fashion.

I know I really shouldn't care, but you aren't assuming that I made assumptions are you? I misunderstood exactly what you were going for but I believe that our posts are linked in terms of beliefs as to cause of racism and one of the ways it might fall away.

No, no. I'm specifically looking at Zero and Shaithis here. But Shaithis is a worthless troll who exists for nothing but shitstirring, and Zero.. Well, I couldn't tell you what he's contributed on the board. But no, it was not aimed at you. I'm rather more direct when replying to someone like that.

[Darth Wong]

Why the fuck does it matter to the initial point that eliminating racism won't eliminate the problem?

You're a worthless fucking idiot piece of shit. The fact that A does not cause 100% of B does not mean that A does not cause B. And if A causes B, then eliminating A would reduce B. Please take your worthless black and white fallacies and shove them up your ass.

I'm so fucking sick of stupid assholes who think that there's no point mitigating problems if you can't eliminate them completely.

[SirNitram]

The difference doesn't matter. You already agreed with me that eliminating racism won't solve the problem, and that people will always find different ways to group people, and segregate, so what fucking relevance is it what specific ways people find to do this? Why the fuck does it matter to the initial point that eliminating racism won't eliminate the problem? What fantastical justification do you have for this you stupid fuck? Why the fuck does it matter? Because you say so?

What a lovely way to spin out the phrase 'Why does it matter' into a spewing of empty bytes. Are you proud of yourself? Now shut the fuck up and listen, you inbred swine.

It matters because the root causes must be addressed seperately. Hatred will never 'go away' completely, but it is a black/white fallacy to say that because you can never get rid of all of it, you shouldn't identify the different kinds and paths to solutions and reduce what you can. This fallacy does not surprise me in it's use in your post.. It's the same dishonest, illogical argument Shaithis has been pimping out as if it makes sense.. But it is depressing.

By the way. Strawman my position from 'Interbreeding doesn't stop hatred' into 'People will always hate the same amount so it doesn't matter' again, and it will go badly. Just a hint.