Does Star Trek Have Any Chance AT ALL?!

[Noble Ire]

If this is the case, then why weren't there huge explosions on the ice when the shots missed their targets?

My theory, which most people seem to ignore despite the evidence in favor of it, was that a portion of Echo base was under the battlefield. This is suggested both by the shockwaves from the AT-ATs march visibly seen in some of the outer tunnels (the snow falling on R2-D2's head.,) as well as by the OT:ITW, which shows that the berthing area for the Rebel Gallofree's streched out a long way from the main portion of the facility, and quite probably at least partially under the battlefield. To fire weapons that could collapse poritions of your own base, especially if your only preforming a holding action, is foolish.

The rebels would have got their weapons off the black market, which would have had decent hardware to sell, as it always does.

You are correct. While Imperial starship and armor was superior, Rebel armament and defensive capability was near state-of-the-art, most of it from arms dealers, or stolen from the Empire itself.

Also, someone mentioned that the walkers had repulsors so that they would not fall in holes. Is this true? The AT-ST's on Endor didn't seem to have this tech.

Why would a smaller vehicle, designed to be a simple scout without heavy armor or carrying capacity, need or even be able to carry a repulsor, even if the AT-AT had one? However, I am unfamiliar with the source of this claim, and I do question its relevance to the topic.

[Admiral_Evian]

Quote:
If this is the case, then why weren't there huge explosions on the ice when the shots missed their targets?

My theory, which most people seem to ignore despite the evidence in favor of it, was that a portion of Echo base was under the battlefield. This is suggested both by the shockwaves from the AT-ATs march visibly seen in some of the outer tunnels (the snow falling on R2-D2's head.,) as well as by the OT:ITW, which shows that the berthing area for the Rebel Gallofree's streched out a long way from the main portion of the facility, and quite probably at least partially under the battlefield. To fire weapons that could collapse poritions of your own base, especially if your only preforming a holding action, is foolish.

Thats an interesting theory. As you said, we could clearly see the snow falling into the tunnels during the battle giving an indication that perhaps the battle was raging directly above their heads. As far as I could tell from the few scenes in the movie, the base was mostly cut from ice and didn't seem to provide much protection. Do you think that the base had an internal shield that sat just under the surface of the ice thus preventing large explosions?

Also, this doesn't explain why the ice trench used by the rebels, gave them protection against the Empires oncoming fire. The Empire was on a shoot to kill policy, and yet their blaster bolts didn't even destroy/melt the trench. Something is very wrong here.

I would also like to add another point. When General Veers saw the generator, he gave the order to fire upon it using "maximum firepower". This immediately made me frown because if we are talking about weapons that could well have an energy output in the mega/kiloton range, then firing at full power at such close range would essentially destroy the AT-AT walker or at least cause it to fall into the huge crater its weapons would have inevitably caused. Once again the numbers make no sense.

Why would a smaller vehicle, designed to be a simple scout without heavy armor or carrying capacity, need or even be able to carry a repulsor, even if the AT-AT had one? However, I am unfamiliar with the source of this claim, and I do question its relevance to the topic

I can understand your point here. I'm not sure how large this repulsor actually is. If its anything like the one on an X-wing then its pretty small and therefore could be fitted onto a scout vehicle. Has anyone else got further info.

Also, as I feared no one is answering the questions I put forward. Can soneone read my earlier post and fill us in? Why has this thread died all of a sudden?

[Darth Wong]

It is obviously a larger calibre gun than the puny rifles and weapons held by the ground troops. If this is the case, then why weren't there huge explosions on the ice when the shots missed their targets?

I don't believe those dish guns ever missed an AT-AT. And if they did, the shot would not have hit the ground; it would have continued into the air because of the positive elevation of the weapon.

Has it ever occurred to anyone here that digging an ice trench to defend ones self against blaster fire from an AT-AT is just pointless?

It probably takes a while to charge up a full-power blast, so they use low-power blasts against infantry. The low-power blasts are quick and easy and save ammo. That's the thing about using one gun for many duties, unlike a modern tank which has a big gun and then several smaller guns for anti-infantry or other purposes.

We are constantly reminded about the eye opening power of the SW weapons but in the Hoth scene we clearly see that a trench, cut only out of ice, can give protection against these weapons. The numbers just don't add up. Why don't the blaster bolts melt the ice? Someone answer this without dodging the question.

The power of SW weapons is not in question; Jango Fett was easily blowing away asteroids in AOTC that, given an equal hit on the trench, would have easily killed everyone nearby. So one must explain why the AT-AT shots at the trench were not particularly powerful, and I think this is because they weren't particularly concerned with killing those men. Look at the subsequent scene where the Rebels are in full retreat; they take only a few sporadic shots at the men rather than constantly firing at them. It's clear that the men are a low-priority target; they're more interested in going after the snowspeeders, which are the only things that can actually take them down.

I have to agree with Dark Primus about how the Feddies should deal with the Empire. Clearly, the tech gap is too large for starters, and lets not mention again the numerical difference between the two sides. The Federation should offer an unconditional surrender and allow an occupation. The Empire will then start huge building projects in Federation space so that this area of the galaxy can be brought up to a "useful" level of tech. After many decades or even centuries, the Federation space will be on the same tech level as the rest of the Empire giving an opportunity to begin a rebellion and time for secret organisations like section 31 to infiltrate the Empire and aid the AQ in an uprising.

The Empire's draconian political structure would severely hamper the continued operation of an outfit like Section 31, particularly over extremely long periods of time as you suggest. Not to mention the fact that they already have plenty of experience dealing with insurgents and uprisings; there is nothing Section 31 could possibly do which the Rebels did not do in vastly greater amounts and with vastly greater effectiveness. Unless they have a Force user handy, they will only be a background annoyance because the Emperor and Vader certainly won't risk themselves personally to capture anyone on their side.

[Vympel]

Another point that just occured to me watching TESB the other day- I think the AT-ATs were bombarding Echo Base itself pretty badly as well- notice the huge tremors that rumble through the base at several times- and of course, what do we think wreaked havoc in the command centre?

[Hedgehog's Roommate]

Why should the Empire have been trying to kill the Rebels at Echo base? Vader was looking to take Luke alive. Do the Imps have some power to just know where he is? No. Do they know what he looks like? Probably not. So why risk angering Vader by accidently killing someone he's looking to capture. Flushing him out into open space, and capturing him there makes more sense to me.

[RThurmont]

Section 31 would probably be totally annhilated by the Empire in just a few months. Remember, the Empire has two extremely competent intelligence organizations, the ISB and the Ubiqtorate, and remember this is an empire with millions of worlds, and consequently, at the absolute minimum, tens of millions of intelligence workers in the ISB and Ubiqtorate each. The only real fight would be between the ISB and the Ubiqtorate, to determine who got to do more of the enivitable ass-whooping of Section 31.

There is no reason at all to believe that the Rebels furthermore would align themselves with Federation remnants, considering the 24th century Federation's horrific record on human rights and its totalitarian, communist regime. I would rather spend 5 years living in the Galactic Empire than 5 minutes in the 24th century Federation.

[CoyoteNature]

You know the Fed might have a chance if it just had a better drive system, its the maneuvaribility that really kills it.

[Ghost Rider]

You know the Fed might have a chance if it just had a better drive system, its the maneuvaribility that really kills it.

That has to be one of the more ignorant things to say in the Star Trek versus Star Wars arena, given even if the Federation had ships on par with the Empire they lose horribly.

Speed and manuverability have nothing to do with it. It just makes the invasion from one month long to less then a day. What makes the difference?

The same reason America and USSR such powerhouses in WW2 even compared to the superior German technology.

[CoyoteNature]

Admittedly ignorant, I'm not really a finatic.

Just saying a faster drive would allow for more BDZ attacks, perhaps even harming the Empire in the process.

As is they are still limited to one sector, couldn't really do much damage.

[Surlethe]

Admittedly ignorant, I'm not really a finatic.

Just saying a faster drive would allow for more BDZ attacks, perhaps even harming the Empire in the process.

As is they are still limited to one sector, couldn't really do much damage.

If you don't know anything, then shut up until you learn. The Empire has millions of worlds, and is so economically powerful the loss of Alderaan, a core world, was barely noticed; Federation technological capabilities don't allow for true BDZ attacks; and the type of Federation fleet which could conceivably devastate even a single world would be a logistics nightmare, and nigh impossible to operate surreptitiously.

[CoyoteNature]

I was under the impression Fed tech did allow for High C planetary bombardment.

I.e. accelerate asteroid to high C speeds, hit planet or station with it, would it necessarily require a large fleet?

[HSRTG]

I was under the impression Fed tech did allow for High C planetary bombardment.

I.e. accelerate asteroid to high C speeds, hit planet or station with it, would it necessarily require a large fleet?

This was discussed in depth on page two. But just for fun I'm going to see what arguments I can come up with.

Planetary shields have to be able to take sustained high teraton events to withstand typical fleet bombardments. How is an asteroid going to breach these shields?

Furthurmore, the ships and stations have FTL sensors, as evidenced by them detecting ships prior to materialization from hyperspace. Not to mention that, without EW, (IIRC) in the NJO series turbolasers fired from a Calamari Cruiser successfully hit targets from OUTSIDE A SOLAR SYSTEM! How the hell is an asteroid going to hit a station capable of being a threat to capital ships (which requires sustained gigaton level output), much less take them by surprise?

Allow me to quote from my own post regarding the planetary defense turbolasers that worlds the Empire cares about would have.

Planetary Turbolasers are common surface-based weapons that fire supercharged bolts of destructive energy into low orbit. When deployed in sufficient numbers they prove a deadly detterent to planetary sieges and are capable of reducing enemy fleets to drifting hulks and debris in a matter of hours.

With a power output nearly four times that of the v-150 Planet Defender Ion Cannon (Note: used at Hoth) the w-165 is one of the most powerful turbolasers ever built. It's sustained volly's can destroy even an Imperial Star Destroyer, ripping through armor plating to pierce the ship's vulnerable main reactor and cause a titanic explosion that can literally rip apart one of these massive cruisers.

Because of the turbolaser's limited fire vectors, planets may use hundreds of them, and they are normally part of a larger defensive network that typically includes ion cannons and planetary shields.

As I put in the post below that, only a world that the Empire cares about would have that. A planet like Backwater IV wouldn't. So the only thing the Empire stands to lose is a small colony, while they potentially gain a huge PR victory.

[LordShaithis]

Even if the Feds somehow blew up Coruscant and killed the Emperor, the fleet would come along and BDZ every world in the Federation in retaliation. Any "trick" on the Fed's part would need to be repeatable a million times over in less time than it takes the Empire to smash them, which isn't much. Anything else is just asking for a harder ass-beating.

[Plushie]

What could give the Feds a chance?

Give GStone God-like powers, then the Feds could take anything on:

++http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/vie ... sc&start=0

[Darth Quorthon]

What could give the Feds a chance?

Give GStone God-like powers, then the Feds could take anything on:

++http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/vie ... sc&start=0

Never in my life have I seen such long-winded posts.

I found this on that same site, and it's priceless:

++http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=826
(Scroll down to the post by Captain Newland. Frickin' hilarious.)

(Sarcasm on) 9.52 gigatons per torpedo? Shoot, the Feds win easy. (sarcasm off).

[Plushie]

What could give the Feds a chance?

Give GStone God-like powers, then the Feds could take anything on:

++http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/vie ... sc&start=0

Never in my life have I seen such long-winded posts.

I found this on that same site, and it's priceless:

++http://www.strek-v-swars.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=826
(Scroll down to the post by Captain Newland. Frickin' hilarious.)

(Sarcasm on) 9.52 gigatons per torpedo? Shoot, the Feds win easy. (sarcasm off).

The thing is, not even that is as bad as GStone not only saying that the Fed could beat the Culture (Yeah, that Culture), but also that he says they could do it in a way that gives them free reign with pretty much every other sci-fi verse that isn't universe spanning (and that's only because most of their resources would be out of the reach of the Feds).

[Darth Quorthon]

I'm not too familiar with the Culture, but from what I've gathered so far, it appears that someone who suggests that ST could beat someone who could smoke the Empire is evidently smoking some pretty strong stuff.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I'm not too familiar with the Culture, but from what I've gathered so far, it appears that someone who suggests that ST could beat someone who could smoke the Empire is evidently smoking some pretty strong stuff.

Let's put it this way, one medium-large culture ship (GSV Sleeper Service) could singlehandedly destroy the empire if given time to build up a fleet a hundredth of the size of the one it built up in a few years-decades.

[Nephtys]

I would also like to add another point. When General Veers saw the generator, he gave the order to fire upon it using "maximum firepower". This immediately made me frown because if we are talking about weapons that could well have an energy output in the mega/kiloton range, then firing at full power at such close range would essentially destroy the AT-AT walker or at least cause it to fall into the huge crater its weapons would have inevitably caused. Once again the numbers make no sense.

One thing you and Tempest seem to be rather ignorant of is that kiloton energy transfer is not the same thing by any means as a kiloton nuclear bomb yield, which is omnidirectional. An energy weapon such as a blaster may transfer an equivilent energy but may not have anywhere near the effects of a comparable yield bomb, transfering it's energy to heat the atmosphere enough to cause a fireball and shockwave.

[Shroom Man 777]

What she's saying is that it's not going to cause a giant explosion. It's just that the bolts are going to be very hot and that they can pierce through a crapload of things.

[Battlehymn Republic]

There is no reason at all to believe that the Rebels furthermore would align themselves with Federation remnants, considering the 24th century Federation's horrific record on human rights and its totalitarian, communist regime. I would rather spend 5 years living in the Galactic Empire than 5 minutes in the 24th century Federation.

Now, now, you're just using hyperbole there. Maybe 5 years on the Outer Rim or somewhere with a free hand, but totalitarian? How's the Federation totalitarian?

-----

And does the Federation have any good options to take, other than follow the suggestions Wong made here?

[Ghost Rider]

There is no reason at all to believe that the Rebels furthermore would align themselves with Federation remnants, considering the 24th century Federation's horrific record on human rights and its totalitarian, communist regime. I would rather spend 5 years living in the Galactic Empire than 5 minutes in the 24th century Federation.

Now, now, you're just using hyperbole there. Maybe 5 years on the Outer Rim or somewhere with a free hand, but totalitarian? How's the Federation totalitarian?

-----

And does the Federation have any good options to take, other than follow the suggestions Wong made here?

Surrender.

And look at how old that bit he wrote was and how much different the power curve is currently.

[Stark]

I just found out that ST has 2.5GT phasers! I'm glad I didn't miss THAT!

[Kurgan]

Their only chance is for Jar Jar to trip over something and unplug the entire Imperial fleet... failing that, hire some Ewoks!

*Imagines Ewok Gliders magically working in space, thanks to midichlorian shamans or something*

[Waddles McGee]

Why does being a fan of Star Terk necessarily mean that you have to believe that it is militarily superior to everything else?

You could simply enjoy your favourite franchise without comparisons at all.

But if you have to compare franchises, you could base your comparison on

• Storytelling ability
• Continuity
• Subjective "fun" factor
• Moral philosophy and "vision" for the future
• Special Effects
• Popularity
• Profitability
• Acting talent
• Humour
• Penis/breast size
• ...or any one of thousands of other criteria.

Now, most of these have been discussed to death here and elsewhere, as well as the original main topic of military success. And ST is still often found wanting in comparison to SW.

But my real point is, there is so much more to SciFi (and storytelling in general) than just "Who has the biggest guns?", which is the only thing that fanboys fixate on.

Since when did I say that I believed star trek was technologically superior to everything else? I was just looking for a light of hope in a Pitch-black tunnel.

Wow, i didn't expect such a lengthy topic. I thought it would be simply "No fucking way trekkie. Locked!" and it'd be over. I posted this nearly a month ago.....wow.

I side with the "Common Sense" people. There is no way Trek could ever win. The horse is dead. Discussion over.

Emperor Brandon