Darth Maul vs. Neo

[Sea Skimmer]

The ability to see slightly into the future is of no value if the lead-time you see does not allow for sufficient time to react.

Except that, obviously, the Jedi precognition lead-time is more than sufficient, given how long Maul, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting.

That would depend on if Neo was faster then Jedi. We don’t see many examples of Jedi dodging blaster bolts without just jumping clear out of the way and they travel slower then bullets.

[Durandal]

The ability to see slightly into the future is of no value if the lead-time you see does not allow for sufficient time to react.

Except that, obviously, the Jedi precognition lead-time is more than sufficient, given how long Maul, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were fighting.

That would depend on if Neo was faster then Jedi. We don't see many examples of Jedi dodging blaster bolts without just jumping clear out of the way and they travel slower then bullets.

That's because deflecting the blaster bolts back at the attacker serves as a sort of long-range weapon for the Jedi.

[Anarchist Bunny]

Armed: Maul wins, even if bullets can't be stopped by a light saber, Mual just needs to take some cover and use the force to send his double lightsaber spining towards Neo.

Hand-to-Hand: I have to go with neo, even with the force, Mauls strength just can't compare to Neo's.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Jedi CAN use TK to deflect bullets, remember, but probably not a lot.

[Shogoki]

Hey, consider this, Neo and his gang's power in the matrix is all about mind states and keeping their minds open and crap like that, with is kindda what Force users do, except they are so strong at it it works in the real world, so I think if you put a Force user in the matrix he/she/it may be able to get even more powerful than any ordinary human, so maybe if the actual Darth Maul was put in the matrix he could kick Neo's ass as bad as he can do it in the real world, I know this is not the setting, but its interesting.

[Crown]

Hey, consider this, Neo and his gang's power in the matrix is all about mind states and keeping their minds open and crap like that, with is kindda what Force users do, except they are so strong at it it works in the real world, so I think if you put a Force user in the matrix he/she/it may be able to get even more powerful than any ordinary human, so maybe if the actual Darth Maul was put in the matrix he could kick Neo's ass as bad as he can do it in the real world, I know this is not the setting, but its interesting.

Let me welcome you before the poking begins. Hello.

[Shogoki]

I'm not really new here, i have been around since the board got started, it took me a while to register though, i come from ASVS, kindda, im the official semi-lurker there.

[Vympel]

I don't poke. The one time I tried it, it was a miserable failure. Hello Lurker.

[Shogoki]

Poking is a foul SB tradition and i don't know why anybody would want it here.

[Moonstone Spider]

Re: Force Damping
Somehow Obi-Wan, one of the most powerful Jedi, didn't manage to use this Force-damping skill to slow down Jango Fett. In fact the AOTC novelization shows that Jango had Obi-Wan on the ropes, he could have killed him a chose not to only because he though Obi-Wan was dead anyway. Clearly Obi-Wan's force-damping skills either did not exist, or were only of use against another force user. Neo is hundreds of times faster and stronger than Jango Fett, who was at least a close match if not a full match for Obi-Wan, who was able to defeat Darth Maul. Darth Maul doesn't stand a chance.

Re: Matrix Learning
Tank pulls out the first disk.
Neo: "You're going to teach me. . . Ju Jitsu?"
Tank *Winks*: "Trust me."
*5 Seconds Later, Neo pulses and the lights flash.*
Neo: "Whoa. . ."
Tank: "Hey Mikey, I think he likes it. Want more?"
Neo: "Hell yes. . ."
*The screen flashes dozens of Martial arts as time passes. I can't remember all of them but I recall Drunken Boxing, Tae Kwon Do, and Caoperia going by among others.*

Re: Force Speed
Funny how in the entire AOTC Arena battle not one Jedi goes into force-speed mode, they all move at regular speed. They're fighting for their lives against overwhelming odds, and yet they decide not to use this incredible speed which would be such a killing advantage? As for the TPM sequence there's a scene cut when the Jedi run off so their speed is uncertain, they may have simply moved at regular speed and time passed during the cut. The fact that the Jedi failed to use any speed enhancement during a critical battle argues that either they don't have it at all, or they are unable to use it in direct combat. And Luke's force speed move is a complete unknown and contradicts the movies to boot, even if he can speed up it doesn't mean he can attain anything like the bullet-dancing speeds Neo can.

[Darth Wong]

Somehow Obi-Wan, one of the most powerful Jedi, didn't manage to use this Force-damping skill to slow down Jango Fett.

He's no Sith Lord. And their grasp of the Force was weakening. Didn't you pay attention to the dialogue in that movie?

Re: Force Speed
Funny how in the entire AOTC Arena battle not one Jedi goes into force-speed mode, they all move at regular speed.

So what are you trying to say? That this force-speed mode doesn't exist, even though we SAW it in TPM? Don't be an idiot. Once again, their control of the Force has been weakened. Watch AOTC and listen to the dialogue. They spell it out for you, and you STILL didn't seem to get it. This was not a problem in TPM.

And Luke's force speed move is a complete unknown and contradicts the movies to boot, even if he can speed up it doesn't mean he can attain anything like the bullet-dancing speeds Neo can.

Two points:

1) Luke's force-speed does not contradict the movies. They could do it in TPM, but not in AOTC when their power has weakened. I don't see a contradiction; well after ROTJ, the shroud of the Dark Side has presumably lifted.

2) Neo only did his bullet-speed thing once, and he still got hit. Remember we're talking about Neo BEFORE he undergoes his bizarre ascension. When he's running from the agents throughout that extended chase, why doesn't he activate this "bullet-dancing speed?" Why is he running like a normal man?

[Moonstone Spider]

He's no Sith Lord. And their grasp of the Force was weakening. Didn't you pay attention to the dialogue in that movie?

Yes, I paid attention. However it's impossible to say exactly how much weaker they were, and if only Sith could use force-supression then a Jedi would be utterly screwed against a Sith. Clearly that hasn't been the case in that movie.

Also the dialogue of the movie said that a cloud of darkness hung over the future, I recall nothing saying that their powers were weakened, merely their precog.

So what are you trying to say? That this force-speed mode doesn't exist, even though we SAW it in TPM? Don't be an idiot. Once again, their control of the Force has been weakened. Watch AOTC and listen to the dialogue. They spell it out for you, and you STILL didn't seem to get it. This was not a problem in TPM.

Cutscene in the middle makes it impossible to tell how fast they were in TPM, or even if they had any acceleration at all. And see above for force-weaknes, for all that they seemed to be doing just fine for force-abilities, nobody felt that Jedi were no longer fit bodyguards despite this force-weakness, Annakin didn't seem to think he was weaker at all.

Two points:

1) Luke's force-speed does not contradict the movies. They could do it in TPM, but not in AOTC when their power has weakened. I don't see a contradiction; well after ROTJ, the shroud of the Dark Side has presumably lifted.

They might have done it in TPM or might not.

2) Neo only did his bullet-speed thing once, and he still got hit. Remember we're talking about Neo BEFORE he undergoes his bizarre ascension. When he's running from the agents throughout that extended chase, why doesn't he activate this "bullet-dancing speed?" Why is he running like a normal man?

Probably because he was taking directions from Tank and trying to find his way as he went, since Tank was operating at normal speeds or less due to injuries it would do Neo no good to reach 500mph, run across town, and discover that the exit he wanted was in the other direction. Super speed is useless if you're relying on a normal human to tell you which way to go next. He also repeatedly did his bullet-dancing speed against Agent Smith in the big subway fight, and was not hit.

[Darth Wong]

Also the dialogue of the movie said that a cloud of darkness hung over the future, I recall nothing saying that their powers were weakened, merely their precog.

Bullshit. They said they were losing their ability to use the Force. How the fuck did you read "precognitive abilities but not everything else" into that?

They might have done it in TPM or might not.

Once again, bullshit. We could clearly see them super-speeding in TPM. Watch the fucking movie and see how they accelerate from a standing start when they decide to beat feet from the two droidekas.

Probably because he was taking directions from Tank and trying to find his way as he went, since Tank was operating at normal speeds or less due to injuries it would do Neo no good to reach 500mph, run across town, and discover that the exit he wanted was in the other direction.

More bullshit. Neo was ad-libbing most of the time, and that extra speed would have come in REALLY handy.

Super speed is useless if you're relying on a normal human to tell you which way to go next.

By that "logic", a car capable of 100mph is useless because a normal human is driving it.

He also repeatedly did his bullet-dancing speed against Agent Smith in the big subway fight, and was not hit.

That fight looked to be normal-speed to me. Besides, they only had handguns. Bullet-dancing speed is limited; Agent Smith sucked it down from a minigun. A couple of quick lightsabre slashes will still kill you if there's no way to contort your body to avoid them.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Incidentally... I don't believe that someone's whole body can move faster than somebody else's hand, all other things being equal.

And that's what Neo has to do to dodge a lightsaber slash.

[gravity]

Incidentally... I don't believe that someone's whole body can move faster than somebody else's hand, all other things being equal.

And that's what Neo has to do to dodge a lightsaber slash.

What? The whole point of Neo is that he *can* move faster, very much so.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Incidentally... I don't believe that someone's whole body can move faster than somebody else's hand, all other things being equal.

And that's what Neo has to do to dodge a lightsaber slash.

What? The whole point of Neo is that he *can* move faster, very much so.

Can he really move that much faster? JEdi force speed vs. Neo speed = Jedi victory, Jedi lightsaber vs. FN P90 = slashed P90.

[Moonstone Spider]

Bullshit. They said they were losing their ability to use the Force. How the fuck did you read "precognitive abilities but not everything else" into that?

Simple, first of every Jedi seen, only Mace Windu and Yoda seem to have any clue that this power weakening occurs. Yoda's comments refer to the shadow of the Dark Side clouding the future, and how the Jedi must be blind not to notice 1.2 million warriors being raised up. Nobody else seems aware that their power has suffered this huge degradation, only the two Jedi Masters have any inkling. Annakin seems uninhibited, Obi-Wan doesn't seem to show any signs that he's feeling his powers down, Yoda even comments on how many Jedi are growing arrogant, people who've just lost most or a significant portion of their power would not be arrogant about how strong they were.

Once again, bullshit. We could clearly see them super-speeding in TPM. Watch the fucking movie and see how they accelerate from a standing start when they decide to beat feet from the two droidekas.

I've seen it, they do move quickly but not at superhuman speeds and a cut in the middle of the scene makes it impossible to judge speed with any accuracy.

More bullshit. Neo was ad-libbing most of the time, and that extra speed would have come in REALLY handy.

I see no bullshit here. It would have been completely useless. The Agents could jump from body to body, so outrunning them was completely impossible since their speed is effectively limited by only their ability to sense something screwing with the matrix. Thus he could never outrun them, it wasn't handy at all for those purposes. It would have seriously messed him up to have gone too fast, only to discover that he'd outrun Tank's instructions, has to double back, and now there's three agents between him and the exit.

As for Ad-libbing, Tank was giving him instructions every couple of seconds; "go up the ladder, now into the left apartment, no your other left, okay across the room . . ."

By that "logic", a car capable of 100mph is useless because a normal human is driving it.

If you have to be able to follow directions being piped to you via cell phone, in which the directions are constantly changing, through a narrow and winding set of city streets, would you drive 100 MPH? My logic is highly sound, 100mph speeds are useless unless you have a relatively straight and smooth roadway ahead of you. Nobody goes 100mph down a crowded city street or 0ff-roading through a forest why? Because their reflexes aren't good enough to dodge obstacles at such speed. Thank you for proving my point with your excellent analogy.

That fight looked to be normal-speed to me. Besides, they only had handguns. Bullet-dancing speed is limited; Agent Smith sucked it down from a minigun. A couple of quick lightsabre slashes will still kill you if there's no way to contort your body to avoid them.

Yet as the fight began we quite clearly saw them dodge each others fire, and repeatedly we saw Agent Smith and Neo blur as they went into super-speed. In addition during the fight with Morpheus the non-matrix humans could not track the fight. The mini-gun fired how many hundreds of rounds to kill those Agents? And bullets move at vastly higher speeds than any Lightsaber. Finally in the fight against the Swat-Team we saw both Neo and Trinity jumping, flipping, and leaping out of the way of incoming fire from many directions at once so clearly your allegation that bullet-dancing speed is not good enough to do more than just contort your body is false.

[Vendetta]

<i>Nobody goes 100mph down a crowded city street or 0ff-roading through a forest why? Because their reflexes aren't good enough to dodge obstacles at such speed.</i>

Racing drivers very often go in excess of 100mph around corners, and that's whilst concentrating on passing the guy in front safely as well.

[Lord Pounder]

Mace Windu - "Do you think it's time to tell the Senate that our ability to use the force had been weakened?"

Yoda "Not yet, Many enemies we have but doubled that number will be if they find out Wakened our powers are"

*it's bloody hard to talk like yoda so i may have misquoted him*

[Moonstone Spider]

Sorry I've been gone so long, real life intruded for a while.

Mace Windu - "Do you think it's time to tell the Senate that our ability to use the force had been weakened?"

Yoda "Not yet, Many enemies we have but doubled that number will be if they find out Wakened our powers are"

This quote is quite correct, but you're taking it out of context, since they were specifically speaking of the fact that they didn't forsee the clone army being formed. That's my whole point, when combined with complaints about Jedi arrogance it shows that their powers have not diminished, only their foreseeing.

To continue to point out the gaping plot holes in this notion, consider the Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan fight. Where was the Super Speed? If Jedi powers went down a great deal due to the dark side, Dooku should have been able to simply go force-speed and slice both of them in half in less than half a second? The novelization makes it clear that Dooku's superiority was because he trained himself in fencing, fighting lightsabers with lightsabers, where Annakin and Obi-Wan both trained themselves in fighting lightsabers against blasters. Force-Speed could have ended it all there but mysteriously, and with no handy imaginary power-drain copout, it didn't materialize.

Then we come to the fight of Luke against Darth Vader. Where's the Force Speed? According to the force-drain theory there was no darkside shadow (although why this would be I have no idea, Palpatine was still fully in control) at that point so Luke should have been able to dish out some of his mystical speed skills, and Vader the same. Yet they moved like tree-sloths. What about Luke's fight on Jabba's Sail Barge? With force-speed Luke might not have been shot. Certainly it would have made his victory a good bit easier and less dangerous. Yet no speed and no conceivable reason for him not to use it. The movies never show Force-Speed aside from one clip of very dubious quality, and there are loads and loads of places where they should have. Movies override other canon, force-speed does not exist.

Racing drivers very often go in excess of 100mph around corners, and that's whilst concentrating on passing the guy in front safely as well.

Thank you once again for proving my point, racing drivers can hit speeds of 200mph on fast tracks. Are they on a very controlled course with every curve known to them? Yes. Do they have to constantly change direction to deal with instructions they are getting to turn here, jump there, dodge now? No. Are the other cars moving at a relative speed of only 2-3mph? Yes. Will more than half the cars finish intact? Unlikely.

[NecronLord]

Maul uses the force to lift Neo off the floor and slowly burst the blood vessels in his brain one at a time (a la black fleet crisis)

"I can feel it Dave, my mind is going, I can feel it... Daisy dasiy give me your answer dooo..."

And frankly if you plugged maul into the matrix it'd be virtual-force-powered-gridfire.

[Moonstone Spider]

And this force-lift skill has been shown where? I have seen force-chokes at times, and objects thrown using the force, but somehow this force-trick of lifting up your target never happens anywhere. Even in interrogations Vader picked up his target with his hands, not the force.

At any rate Maul's reflexes are, relative to Neo's, slower than a vegetable drying in the sun. By the time Maul's Neurons have actually fired and before the nerve impulses have reached his hands, Neo will already have punched him several dozen times with each hit strong enough to shatter several feet of concrete. Maul will be dead before he feels the pain of the blows.

[Crown]

And this force-lift skill has been shown where? I have seen force-chokes at times, and objects thrown using the force, but somehow this force-trick of lifting up your target never happens anywhere. Even in interrogations Vader picked up his target with his hands, not the force.

Were you asleep during TESB when Yoda lifted the X-Wing? Did you miss the part where Luke was hovering the rocks? What are you on about? If you are saying that because Vader didn't lift and choke the rebel in ANH, then he didn't have the ability to choke with the Force till later in the movie? Come on, that was a very weak rebuttle.

[NecronLord]

Errr righto then

Jedi telekenesis

Qui gon and Obi Wan killing various droids by telekenisis in TPM

Maul flinking Obi Wan over the edge of the pit in TPM

Anakin in the factory in AotC

Jedi in the arena in AotC

Yoda and Dooku in AotC

Lightsaber retrival. appears first in AotC

Obi Wan tapping the wall in ANH

Yoda instructing Luke to lift rocks

Yoda lifts the X wing

Vader flings machinary at luke

Vader sends luke down that shaft (IIRC that is implied in shadows of the empire so it's a little uncertain)

Yet more saber retrival in TESB

Can't remember seeing anything more than saber retrival in RotJ

[NecronLord]

At any rate Maul's reflexes are, relative to Neo's, slower than a vegetable drying in the sun. By the time Maul's Neurons have actually fired and before the nerve impulses have reached his hands, Neo will already have punched him several dozen times with each hit strong enough to shatter several feet of concrete. Maul will be dead before he feels the pain of the blows.

correction in reality Neo's reflexes are piss poor. Maul would kill him almost instantly. And as for the 'matrix' you did notice that Maul was a sith lord. He'd simply overload the thing, killing everyone nearby. Force powered virtual gridfire...