Clonetroopers become Stormtroopers

Admiral Felire · Post by **Admiral Felire** » 2005-11-27 01:54am

I was wondering if anybody knew the moment that the Clonetroopers became the Stormtroopers. Was it an almost immediate thing after Palpatine is declared Emperor, or was it something slower and more degree.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-11-27 02:53am

What defines a Clone becoming a Stormtrooper? I doubt their uniform changed instantly, that was probably a gradual thing, with probably a few more slight changes in the armor before it became the type of armor we're used to seeing in the Original Trilogy, though it's worth noting there are slight variations obvious in the helmets in between ANH contrasted to TESB and RotJ (in real life, this is because the prop departmnet devised a way to make the armor faster, as well as making it more comfortable for the extras to wear).

It's worth noting that the name "Stormtrooper" was first used after the declaration of the Galactic Empire in Dark Lord (which I have yet to read except for an extract at the back of my paperback of Labyrinth of Evil as well as another extract available on starwars.com).

Kenoshi · Post by **Kenoshi** » 2005-11-27 03:56am

Now just to clarify, because I'm a wee confused about this issue, are the Stormtroopers from episodes 4 through 6 clones, conscripts, or a mixture of the two? What's the official word on that?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-11-27 04:16am

IIRC, the word is clones with a healthy dose of recruits.

Hedgehog's Roommate · Post by **Hedgehog's Roommate** » 2005-11-27 04:24am

Darth Yoshi wrote:IIRC, the word is clones with a healthy dose of recruits.

In BF2 the cutscene dialogue states that this is the case. It was instituted because of a rebellion on Kamino, Palps didn't want all clones anymore for fear of someone subverting them. Also from the cutscenes you get the impression that this wasn't the case for the 501st. It implies that they stayed an all clone unit and were quite proud of this fact.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-11-27 04:39am

In Evasive Action: Recruitment, which takes place some months after ROTS, there's stormtroopers wearing the Phase II clone armor. I don't know of any stories that go further into the future, apart from the Last of the Jedi series. Anyone read them?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2005-11-27 07:41pm

Hedgehog's Roommate wrote:
Darth Yoshi wrote:IIRC, the word is clones with a healthy dose of recruits.
In BF2 the cutscene dialogue states that this is the case. It was instituted because of a rebellion on Kamino, Palps didn't want all clones anymore for fear of someone subverting them. Also from the cutscenes you get the impression that this wasn't the case for the 501st. It implies that they stayed an all clone unit and were quite proud of this fact.

While I've yet to play BF2, a friend of mine who owns it says the same thing. After the revolt on Kamino the Empire started using a variety of templates (and perhaps different cloning techniques?). Not only did the 501st remain an all clone unit, but they were all clones of Jango Fett. "Pure" in the words of the veteran who does the cutscenes.

Unless there's a way to grow fully combat-ready clones in under a year, it wouldn't be practical for the Empire to continue favoring clones over regular recruits. However, soldiers born and raised by the military are unswervingly loyal, which is one of the points of stormtrooperdom. I suppose the GAR gave way to the stormtroopers as they were phased out as the Empire's primary fighting force (replaced by the Imperial Army).

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-11-27 11:30pm

the 501st Shocktroopers began being referred to as the stormtroopers about a month after Mustafar. Presumably this is because they stormed the Jedi Temple. From there it spread to all the clones being stormtroopers.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-11-27 11:44pm

I thought Palpatine's men, the ones who searched for Yoda and accompanied him to and from Mustafar, were the ones called "shocktroopers"?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-11-28 12:12am

Vympel wrote:I thought Palpatine's men, the ones who searched for Yoda and accompanied him to and from Mustafar, were the ones called "shocktroopers"?

Apparently so are the 501st. Both were apparently grown on Coruscant, maybe that the connection

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2005-11-28 03:23am

My guess is that "stormtrooper" comes to mean any sort of trooper (clone or non-clone) who are basically "The Emperor's men" - IE Palpatine's. I'd bet the non-clones are drawn (mostly?) from among the brainwashed or fanatical members of the New Order (those who worship Palpy like a virtual god, that is.) while the clones are just as they are already depicted - hard-wired for loyalty.

"Clonetroopers" in generla probably refer to those clones in the GAR - the "REpublic's" men (like those traitorous commandos in the latest Luceno book.) they aren't hardwired for loyalty. And the local "non-clone" regiments of the Sector members and whatnot probably also fall into this category too.

The interesting question is.. are there still any "non-stormtrooper" clones around? do the standing militaries of the Sector members still use clones? Or do they use non-clones? What about the Imperial Army?

I think we know the answer for the Navy and fighter corps..

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-11-28 05:12am

Personally, even though I know full well Clones are so much more inefficient that simply recruiting men or constructing battle droids- I do like the idea of the Empire's military ranks being made up of countless trillions of AotC/RotS clones. I bet everyone would complain like crazy if the OT was say, changed so that every Stormtrooper became a CGI Jango-Clone with the same height and that voice- but not me. I'd love it. Yeah, it's a guilty pleasure.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-11-28 05:26am

They became the Stormtroopers the moment they recieved Order 66.

Yes, I just PTOOMA, but I think it sounds cool.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-11-28 05:27am

You just what?

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-11-28 05:32am

WT is a PTOOMA?

Doctor Doom · Post by **Doctor Doom** » 2005-11-28 03:40pm

"Pulled That Out Of My Ass"

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-11-28 08:11pm

Vympel wrote:Personally, even though I know full well Clones are so much more inefficient that simply recruiting men or constructing battle droids- I do like the idea of the Empire's military ranks being made up of countless trillions of AotC/RotS clones. I bet everyone would complain like crazy if the OT was say, changed so that every Stormtrooper became a CGI Jango-Clone with the same height and that voice- but not me. I'd love it. Yeah, it's a guilty pleasure.

Same here. There's just something appealing about the idea that the Empire can just mass manufacture people like that. I think its because it really, more so then Alderaan, Ghoram, Camaas, slavery, torture droids, or any of the others, makes it evil. Those kinds of things have been done before and will unfortunately continue to be done long in the future. But the clones is a new take. The Empire has managed to so warp its people that they have cheapened life to the point where they throw it away. Clones are fully human, even if they came from a tube, yet are ordered into battles where their lives are thrown away like they were nothing. And everyone accepts it because, hey, its not their kids dying. The clones have no choice in the matter, they are bred and treated like cattle, and are kileld just as easily. Somehow that strikes me as being more sinister and evil then anything else.

Bill_Dunaway · Post by **Bill_Dunaway** » 2005-11-29 08:06am

There's a lot to be said for clones fillling the oppressor role in the evil empire. They have very high skill levels, fantatical loyalty, and superb courage. You don't have to worry about them developing any sort of conscious or allowing personal ambition to interfere in their jobs. You don't even have to pay them or offer any veteran benefits and when they get too old to be useful, you can just send them to the glue factory.

If I am ever an even emperor, I will try to use a clone army if robots can't do the job adequately.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2005-11-30 02:27pm

I guess it's sort of a toss up.

Which is scarier? Guys who are genetically programmed to obey their leader without question, no matter what horrendous atrocities he orders them to commit? "Soulless zombies" or slaves who can't be reasoned with...?

Or brainwashed fanatics (like SS) who do the most henious acts because they, in their twisted thinking, feel that it's for the best... or simply indulge their own sadism because they can?

Both can be scary...

And which would you feel more justified killing?

As fictional minions of evil it could go either way I guess.

Bromma_Herman · Post by **Bromma_Herman** » 2005-12-09 03:20am

Sorry for my late entry here but:

We know from the Thrawn Trilogy that the Emperor had a storehouse at Wayland, maybe more than one on other planets. It is possible that weyland produces a small number of clones for the empire. Captain palleon states that weyland can produce 100 000 troops in a year, wich might just fit with the capacity of Kamino, however, Kamino takes 12-15 years to produce maybe a million troops.

Gildor · Post by **Gildor** » 2005-12-09 05:49am

Interesting theory, but I somehow don't see 200,000 "units" equating to individual soldiers. That's just WAY too few, considering the war and its personnel requirements.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-12-09 07:12am

Bromma_Herman wrote:Sorry for my late entry here but:

We know from the Thrawn Trilogy that the Emperor had a storehouse at Wayland, maybe more than one on other planets. It is possible that weyland produces a small number of clones for the empire. Captain palleon states that weyland can produce 100 000 troops in a year, wich might just fit with the capacity of Kamino, however, Kamino takes 12-15 years to produce maybe a million troops.

Given that they had to reassemble the Spaarti Tubes to working order, and given they are two entirly different process and one is a small facility within a mountain and the other is fucking planet.

Somehow it doesn't fit even in the slightest, except both produce clones.

Bromma_Herman · Post by **Bromma_Herman** » 2005-12-09 07:57am

@Ghost Rider:

Maybe, but Im just comparing. Since Weylands clones (without Yasalamari) does take shorter to produce, in the long term, they just might produce enought clones to compete with kamino. Kamino is a ocean planet btw with only a few habitats.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-12-09 08:40am

Bromma_Herman wrote:@Ghost Rider:

Maybe, but Im just comparing. Since Weylands clones (without Yasalamari) does take shorter to produce, in the long term, they just might produce enought clones to compete with kamino. Kamino is a ocean planet btw with only a few habitats.

And you have undeniable proof that it only has a few habitats? Just because what was shown was one city hardly proves conclusive to that matter. And also the comparison has some distinct differences since the Spaarti tubes utilize flash imprinting and once again, it's a small facility within a single mountain. The Spaarti way is infinitly faster. But wayland was never mentioned and in fact was noted as a trophy within Palpatine's mountain.

So you are presuming several factors.

1. Palpatine went for Spaarti cloning, when he placed what is seemingly the only batch of working tubes he had inside a trophy room. This hardly looks to be the work of a man needing a device.

2. That Kamino is only a few habitats. What made you think this, given what we've seen of SW tech?

3. This method was used, but given the pitiful amount Thrawn produced in a year, would not cover the enormous amount needed for the New Order, let alone the clone war.

The 3 million, no matter how much one wants to claim is impossible for a war of that scale given the CIS had quadrillions of offensive troops...easily.

Bromma_Herman · Post by **Bromma_Herman** » 2005-12-09 12:21pm

@Ghost Rider:

I only presents MY PERSONAL THEORIES; not any kind of proof.

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Clonetroopers become Stormtroopers

Clonetroopers become Stormtroopers

that would suck!