Might Obi Wan have had a shot against Palpatine?

[Hedgehog's Roommate]

Just checked some material I have here. The ROTS: VD says that when Yoda first arrived at the temple the "...memories of the Jedi-Sith war and the waning of the dark times were still fresh." Implying that the war might not have been over for that long. It could be that the Sith of old had much the same Master/Apprentice tradition. There were just more masters then.

Something else to think about. Publius, in a different thread, stated that there were a number of connections that Palps used to gain control. It could be that the earlier Sith had similar connections, and one of their agents was captured or defected. They spill their guts the Jedi start poking around, but aren't attacked or uncover anything. Decide it was a false alarm, and carry on with their lives. Fastforward ~1000 years and Qui-Gon gets attacked the council starts looking into things,and come across this thousand year old report.

Just something to think about.

[Eleas]

The Obi-Wan backpeddiling thing is just the results of a diffrent fighting style. Its stated int he Insider issue with the lightsaber styles that in Ep: I Obi Uses the more agressive form IV? Qui Gon used II.
Then in Episode II-IV Obi used a form II While Anakin used close to the style Obi used in EpI (form IV? i dont have the issue on hand)

The forms, as described in Insider, are nonsense. Having said that, Obi-Wan's style does seem to have a highly defensive component. Still, the oft-repeated assertion that Obi-Wan was "outclassed" by Anakin is just as stupid and baseless as it was when stated the first time.

Several times, Obi-Wan holds his ground and engages Anakin, and even pushes him back successfully. At one point, he's even standing above Anakin, a split second from killing him outright. Note that while Anakin is the better swordsman, the disparity is by no means huge. If it were, Obi-Wan would not stop to exchange blows, and would have succumbed before even reaching the control room.

As for Sidious vs Windu -- Windu has been observed to be faster and more efficient in all other battles we've seen him in. I can only assume that he's met his match in Palpatine's Force abilities, and that they're messing with each others' heads. In fact, they seem inexplicably stymied at points in their duel -- particularly when passing each other, where both could have attacked but instead hesitate. To be honest, they looked like a couple of dancers who didn't trust each other to follow the steps, and that could very well be due to Force interference.

[Vympel]

At one point, he's even standing above Anakin, a split second from killing him outright.

You will recall the scene started with Anakin throttling Obi-Wan- Anakin has lost his sabre, we can surmise this is from the novelization's account where Obi-Wan used the force to manipulate Anakin's cyber-arm so that his fingers opened and his lightsabre sprung out of his hand.

Obi-Wan only got above him from recovering successfuly from Anakin strangling him, and kicking Anakin (after Anakin just as easily kicked him).

[Crown]

Palpatine would have made mince meat out of Obi Wan. Obi Wan is no where near Anakins equal in that fight in mustafar, he back pedles the whole way through the battle[/yellow]. It was Anakins arrogance that defeated him. Obi Wan would have had a lot of trouble countering the lightning barrage Yoda got hit and even if he could counter that I don't think he'd have been able to defeat the flying senate pods of d00m!

I'm so sick of the above. Get some glasses and re-watch the fucking point in question. Anakin and Obi-Wan were fucking MATCHED in terms of Force power during the Mustafar fight scene. This is proven without a doubt as they both had no advantage over each other when they TK'ed each other.

G. Level. Canon.

[Vympel]

I'm so sick of the above. Get some glasses and re-watch the fucking point in question. Anakin and Obi-Wan were fucking MATCHED in terms of Force power during the Mustafar fight scene.

You're talking about two different things- Pounder is referring to Obi-Wan giving ground during the battle in general, which is what an inferior swordsman should do when faced with a superior one. You're referring to their attempt to force push each other, but when Jedi fight with lightsabres the issue of their power definitely comes into it- it's a fight on two levels.

[Crown]

I'm so sick of the above. Get some glasses and re-watch the fucking point in question. Anakin and Obi-Wan were fucking MATCHED in terms of Force power during the Mustafar fight scene.

You're talking about two different things- Pounder is referring to Obi-Wan giving ground during the battle in general, which is what an inferior swordsman should do when faced with a superior one. You're referring to their attempt to force push each other, but when Jedi fight with lightsabres the issue of their power definitely comes into it- it's a fight on two levels.

I know what Pounder was saying, I pointed out that he 'replied' to a point that wasn't raised in the OP, the post at the top of the page, immediately above his.

He addressed a point that wasn't raised, and has since been pointed out to be naive and essentially wrong.

Like I said, I'm sick of seeing it. Everytime someone mentions the TK battle, someone else brings up 'well Obi-Wan was back peddeling all the way'. This does not address the point and it proves nothing, unless someone can explain to me why backpeddeling is a bad thing when your opponent is stronger, faster, younger and taller (has greater reach) than you.

Obi-Wan used the best strategy he could against an enranged Anakin (or Vader if you prefer). Even Darth Maul backpeddeled and gave ground to Qui-Gon remember?

[Molyneux]

I'm so sick of the above. Get some glasses and re-watch the fucking point in question. Anakin and Obi-Wan were fucking MATCHED in terms of Force power during the Mustafar fight scene.

You're talking about two different things- Pounder is referring to Obi-Wan giving ground during the battle in general, which is what an inferior swordsman should do when faced with a superior one. You're referring to their attempt to force push each other, but when Jedi fight with lightsabres the issue of their power definitely comes into it- it's a fight on two levels.

There is strategic value in retreating continually from a strong opponent; you're both using much less energy than they are, and can lead them to a position where they will have a disadvantage. Retreat is not always a method of last resort.

[Chris OFarrell]

Frankly the impression I got from the duel between Obi and Anikin was that Anikin was using his rage and hate to fuel his assault simply attacking without respite was all he could think of doing.

Obi-Wan however was perfectly balanced in the force and gave himself over to it. It's always been contrasted how Anikin was a 'do it now, action this day', very much an agressive impulsive fighter. Obi-Wan however was one who would bide his time and wait as long as necessary for the right moment. So he did keep giving ground and letting Anikin attack. Not because he was barely holding on in the fight or anything like that.

But simply because he was waiting for that one moment, that one critical error he knew Anikin would eventualy make. And more then a few times in the fight Obi-Wan lured his former studnet into a point where he damn near got it. Like when the mining thingy went over the 'river of lava' and he was just damn lucky to have that little floating thing to land on. Or inside the command centre when he was barely able to get out from under Obi-Wan after his contemptious attitude towards him until then in the duel.

Patience and a calm centered mind has allowed more then a few Jedi in the EU including Luke to perform amazing feets of swordplay.

[Eleas]

You will recall the scene started with Anakin throttling Obi-Wan- Anakin has lost his sabre, we can surmise this is from the novelization's account where Obi-Wan used the force to manipulate Anakin's cyber-arm so that his fingers opened and his lightsabre sprung out of his hand.

Obi-Wan only got above him from recovering successfuly from Anakin strangling him, and kicking Anakin (after Anakin just as easily kicked him).

Granted, but Anakin could not have been put in that position were he at an equilibrium.

[Vympel]

Obi-Wan used the best strategy he could against an enranged Anakin (or Vader if you prefer). Even Darth Maul backpeddeled and gave ground to Qui-Gon remember?

Actually Maul gave ground to both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon- he was outnumbered. When it was one on one he stood his ground and easily won out both times- as the TPM novelization says, he was superior to both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Unfortunately, just like Anakin, he was too overconfident.

[Crown]

Obi-Wan used the best strategy he could against an enranged Anakin (or Vader if you prefer). Even Darth Maul backpeddeled and gave ground to Qui-Gon remember?

Actually Maul gave ground to both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon- he was outnumbered. When it was one on one he stood his ground and easily won out both times- as the TPM novelization says, he was superior to both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. Unfortunately, just like Anakin, he was too overconfident.

Actually he gave up 30 odd meters to Qui-Gon when Obi-Wan was still seeing stars due to his fall off the bridge.

[Vympel]

Actually he gave up 30 odd meters to Qui-Gon when Obi-Wan was still seeing stars due to his fall off the bridge.

To ensure that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon remained seperated, which he repeatedly attempted to accomplish by kicking Obi-Wan out of the way (one of which sent him flying, previously it just knocked him away). Obi-Wan was pretty foolish in the TPM fight all up. Once this was accomplished, he dispatched Qui Gon in short order- same story with Obi-Wan.

[Crown]

Actually he gave up 30 odd meters to Qui-Gon when Obi-Wan was still seeing stars due to his fall off the bridge.

To ensure that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon remained seperated, which he repeatedly attempted to accomplish by kicking Obi-Wan out of the way (one of which sent him flying, previously it just knocked him away). Obi-Wan was pretty foolish in the TPM fight all up. Once this was accomplished, he dispatched Qui Gon in short order- same story with Obi-Wan.

Yes Vympel. It's called strategy ... do you see my point?

One cannot take the fact that Obi-Wan was giving ground to Anakin and say 'well obviously the fact that X person is giving ground to Y person means that they are a shit poor swordsman in comparison', and then when the opposite is pointed out (as in TPM) stammer and sputter 'but, but, but'.

Here, do something for me; time the two scenes in TPM. The one where it's just Qui-Gon and Maul alone while Obi-Wan is still seeing stars and when it's just Qui-Gon and Maul while Obi-Wan is trapped behind the barrier. You'll find that there isn't really that much difference in time IIRC.

Why the hell didn't Maul just finish Qui-Gon earlier? Could it be perhaps, that he wasn't so much more uber than him after all, but was waiting to tire the older man out first? After all Obi-Wan, for all his energy, really wasn't a problem for Maul even while Qui-Gon was in play.

The point stands; giving ground is a sound strategic practice when faced with someone who is stronger and with greater reach (RotS and ANH), and when you're out numbered (TPM). It does not denote a lack in skill - or at least such a staggering void some people are making it out to be.

[Vympel]

Yes Vympel. It's called strategy ... do you see my point?

One cannot take the fact that Obi-Wan was giving ground to Anakin and say 'well obviously the fact that X person is giving ground to Y person means that they are a shit poor swordsman in comparison', and then when the opposite is pointed out (as in TPM) stammer and sputter 'but, but, but'.

It's two different situations, so it's perfectly justified to say "but". Darth Maul is acknowledged in the TPM novelization as being superior to Qui-Gon, and by extension, to Obi-Wan- he gave ground to seperate them and defeat them one at a time- Obi-Wan gave ground because he obviously couldn't stay in one place and eventually get cleft in two. You can't point to a situation where it's two against one and argue it's the same thing as a one on one.

Here, do something for me; time the two scenes in TPM. The one where it's just Qui-Gon and Maul alone while Obi-Wan is still seeing stars and when it's just Qui-Gon and Maul while Obi-Wan is trapped behind the barrier. You'll find that there isn't really that much difference in time IIRC.

Why the hell didn't Maul just finish Qui-Gon earlier? Could it be perhaps, that he wasn't so much more uber than him after all, but was waiting to tire the older man out first? After all Obi-Wan, for all his energy, really wasn't a problem for Maul even while Qui-Gon was in play.

Likely because if he stopped to actually fight Qui-Gon then Obi-Wan would be on him- he was a force jump and a run away, and actually stopping to finish him would mean he was standing still rather than drawing them further apart. As it is, his strategy was perfect- he got Obi-Wan further enough away that he was in no danger of ever having to fight both of them.

The point stands; giving ground is a sound strategic practice when faced with someone who is stronger and with greater reach (RotS and ANH), and when you're out numbered (TPM). It does not denote a lack in skill - or at least such a staggering void some people are making it out to be.

If Obi-Wan was as skilled, then he needn't have given up ground as he did. He is still the inferior fighter, but I for one never claimed it was a "staggering void". That he simply wasn't as good is still a fact (see for example how easily Anakin dispatched Dooku alone, a feat Obi-Wan couldn't accomplish in AotC even though he was older and more experienced than Anakin at that point).

[Crown]

It's two different situations, so it's perfectly justified to say "but". Darth Maul is acknowledged in the TPM novelization as being superior to Qui-Gon, and by extension, to Obi-Wan- he gave ground to seperate them and defeat them one at a time- Obi-Wan gave ground because he obviously couldn't stay in one place and eventually get cleft in two. You can't point to a situation where it's two against one and argue it's the same thing as a one on one.

It was one to one when Obi-Wan was lying on his back, Maul still gave up ground. If we use the 'giving up ground = poorer sword fighter' 'logic' certain people are employing, then it holds true that Maul was less of a swordman than Qui-Gon. If of course the 'giving up ground = poorer sword fighter' logic is a load of bollocks, then the two can be easily reconciled, what is it that you are unable to understand about the above?

Likely because if he stopped to actually fight Qui-Gon then Obi-Wan would be on him- he was a force jump and a run away, and actually stopping to finish him would mean he was standing still rather than drawing them further apart. As it is, his strategy was perfect- he got Obi-Wan further enough away that he was in no danger of ever having to fight both of them.

Yes, I agree with that assertation, but you've gotta be shitting with me if you agree with the 'Maul being lightyears better than Qui-Gon' bullshit. Clearly he wasn't, since if he was, he needed not have employed that strategy at all to begin with (after all we also have to reconcile the 'over confident' angle somehow too).

I asked you to time the two scenes for me (note the first one uses time lapsing), I can't do it, and you didn't. You also seem to be labouring under the false impression that I'm somehow married to the opposite of the 'giving up ground' crowd, i.e. 'no giving up ground shows how uber one is!'

I'm not, I'm demonstrating the absurd stupidity of using the fact that one fighter is giving up ground as some kind of 'proof' that shows that they obviously are lacking in skill.

If Obi-Wan was as skilled, then he needn't have given up ground as he did. He is still the inferior fighter, but I for one never claimed it was a "staggering void". That he simply wasn't as good is still a fact (see for example how easily Anakin dispatched Dooku alone, a feat Obi-Wan couldn't accomplish in AotC even though he was older and more experienced than Anakin at that point).

That's just plain obsurd. If we employ a; A > D, D > OW type of logic then it means that OW can not beat Anakin, and yet he did, even 20 fucking years later when Anakin considers himself a fucking Master and his old Master as weak - Obi-Wan had to let himself be killed.*

The staggering void is just not there (we both agree on that), I have yet to be shown any proof of any disapparity worth mentioning between the two at all (except who can and can't beat Dooku angle) which frankly to me seems about as accurate an indicator as saying 'Liverpool won the Champions League, so natch their not going to lose to Fullham' ...

People aren't robots, they vary in their performance. The RotS novelisation makes it clear that Dooku could not penetrate Obi-Wan's defences and had to resort to TK.

Your starting to grate when you just repeat yourself. Other members on this board knowledgeable in sword play have stated (many times) that giving ground to someone taller, younger and stronger than you does not denote a lack of skill. Bob Brown (as whacko as he might be when it comes to the whole SW issue) is a qualified Kendo master and he has stated that giving ground to someone younger, stronger and taller than you does not denote a lack of skill.

Fuck me, but I'm willing to trust these people's professional opinions more than the novelisations, just like I'm willing to trust Dr Saxton's conclusions on weapon's and ship's performances. If you're not, then I see no point in continuing our conversation, since we are approaching it at an almost EU vs Purist point of view.

Consider this; while I'm more than willing (as a layman) to say that Anakin is a better swordsman than Obi-Wan in RotS (whether it's due to youth, or physique, or just skill, you pick), people knowledgeable in sword play would - I would argue - retort with; yeah but Obi-Wan in ANH would rip them both a new one in a second, and yet we have the ANH novelisation telling us Obi-Wan as being weak and just barely holding on.

This is the fundamental difference in this debate between the two of us (let's be frank this is an on going conversation spanning many threads and months). While I'm more than happy to admit that I'm a bit of a Obi-Wan fanboy, I'm by no means pulling this shit out of my arse. It comes down to the question of how much of the novelisation can either of us tolerate (when discussing fight scenes) before we say 'that does not match what we see on screen'.

My tolerance is demonstrably short.

Consider what we have to reconcile in RotS; the novelisation (and George Lucas) harps on the fact that Anakin is stronger in the Force than Obi-Wan. This is demonstrated as false in the control room, for fucks sake.





*Say what you will about Bob Brown, the man understands swordplay, as far as I'm concerned I see no reason why people are perfectly willing to use SoD when it comes to such things as speed or firepower, but when we talk about sword fighting they fall back on 'but in the novelisation!!!!'

[Vympel]

It was one to one when Obi-Wan was lying on his back, Maul still gave up ground. If we use the 'giving up ground = poorer sword fighter' 'logic' certain people are employing, then it holds true that Maul was less of a swordman than Qui-Gon. If of course the 'giving up ground = poorer sword fighter' logic is a load of bollocks, then the two can be easily reconciled, what is it that you are unable to understand about the above?

As I said below, because he didn't rid himself of Obi-Wan to his satisfaction. We already know from the TPM novelization that Maul is better, and Qui-Gon knew this to be true. See the quotes below.

Yes, I agree with that assertation, but you've gotta be shitting with me if you agree with the 'Maul being lightyears better than Qui-Gon' bullshit. Clearly he wasn't, since if he was, he needed not have employed that strategy at all to begin with (after all we also have to reconcile the 'over confident' angle somehow too).

As I said, the TPM novelization tells us that Maul was better- not only was he younger and faster, but he was more in tune with the Force:

Qui-Gon Jinn was one of the most able swordsmen in the Jedi order. The Jedi Master he had trained under had considered him one of the best the Master had taight in his more than four hundred years in the order [written before Episode II, of course, so we can discount that four hundred years thing]. Qui-Gon had fought in conflicts all across the galaxy in the span of his life and against odds so great that many others would not have stood a chance. He had survived battles and tested his skill and resolve in every conceivable way.

But on this day, he met his match. The Sith Lord he battled with Obi-Wan was more than his equal in weapons training, and he had the advantage of being younger and stronger. Qui-Gon was nearing sixty, his youth was behind him and his strength was beginning to diminish. His edge now, to the extent that he had one, came from his long experience and intuitive grasp of how an adversary might employ a lightsabre against him ...

It goes on for some time.

But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing.

Anyway.

I asked you to time the two scenes for me (note the first one uses time lapsing), I can't do it, and you didn't. You also seem to be labouring under the false impression that I'm somehow married to the opposite of the 'giving up ground' crowd, i.e. 'no giving up ground shows how uber one is!'

I'm not, I'm demonstrating the absurd stupidity of using the fact that one fighter is giving up ground as some kind of 'proof' that shows that they obviously are lacking in skill.

I never said he was lacking in skill per se- only in comparison to Anakin, and even then, the disparity is not massive- they've been sparring each other for years. However, the simple fact is he is not the Chosen One, he doesn't have the raw ability, nor is he Anakin's equal in lightsabre-fighting- especially not one filled with the Dark Side.

That's just plain obsurd. If we employ a; A > D, D > OW type of logic then it means that OW can not beat Anakin, and yet he did

Through Anakin's own arrogance. This is obvious to everyone, including George Lucas' own commentary during the DVD.

even 20 fucking years later when Anakin considers himself a fucking Master and his old Master as weak - Obi-Wan had to let himself be killed.*

See below.

The staggering void is just not there (we both agree on that), I have yet to be shown any proof of any disapparity worth mentioning between the two at all (except who can and can't beat Dooku angle) which frankly to me seems about as accurate an indicator as saying 'Liverpool won the Champions League, so natch their not going to lose to Fullham' ...

How is it not an accurate indicator? If Obi-Wan had ever been as good or as powerful as Anakin was, he should've been able to dispatch Dooku without Anakin's help in AotC, not to mention getting bitched out of the fight at the start of RotS. Given that Obi-Wan was three years younger in AotC, he should've had an even easier time of it.

People aren't robots, they vary in their performance. The RotS novelisation makes it clear that Dooku could not penetrate Obi-Wan's defences and had to resort to TK.

So Obi-Wan was just having a bad day in AotC?

Your starting to grate when you just repeat yourself. Other members on this board knowledgeable in sword play have stated (many times) that giving ground to someone taller, younger and stronger than you does not denote a lack of skill. Bob Brown (as whacko as he might be when it comes to the whole SW issue) is a qualified Kendo master and he has stated that giving ground to someone younger, stronger and taller than you does not denote a lack of skill.

If you're going to refer to Bob Brown then I can just as easily refer to Nic Gillard, who, unlike Bob Brown, actually had something to do with the making of the film and rated Anakin a 9 as opposed to Obi-Wan's 8. This is crystal clear obvious in the manner that Anakin was defeated- he overestimated his power and thought he could leap at Obi-Wan from low to high ground, and paid for it with his limbs. It wasn't Obi-Wan actually breaking through Anakin's defense.

Fuck me, but I'm willing to trust these people's professional opinions more than the novelisations, just like I'm willing to trust Dr Saxton's conclusions on weapon's and ship's performances. If you're not, then I see no point in continuing our conversation, since we are approaching it at an almost EU vs Purist point of view.

I have referred to no novelization here except the TPM novelization- do you disagree with it?

Consider this; while I'm more than willing (as a layman) to say that Anakin is a better swordsman than Obi-Wan in RotS (whether it's due to youth, or physique, or just skill, you pick), people knowledgeable in sword play would - I would argue - retort with; yeah but Obi-Wan in ANH would rip them both a new one in a second, and yet we have the ANH novelisation telling us Obi-Wan as being weak and just barely holding on.

See below.

This is the fundamental difference in this debate between the two of us (let's be frank this is an on going conversation spanning many threads and months). While I'm more than happy to admit that I'm a bit of a Obi-Wan fanboy, I'm by no means pulling this shit out of my arse. It comes down to the question of how much of the novelisation can either of us tolerate (when discussing fight scenes) before we say 'that does not match what we see on screen'.

My tolerance is demonstrably short.

I haven't said that the novelization doesn't match what we see on screen to my knowledge.

Consider what we have to reconcile in RotS; the novelisation (and George Lucas) harps on the fact that Anakin is stronger in the Force than Obi-Wan. This is demonstrated as false in the control room, for fucks sake.

No it isn't. For one, notice who's on on who like white on rice after they blew each other across the room- Anakin, flying across the room and over a table in an obvious force leap, while Obi-Wan barely recovers in time to continue defending himself. Anakin has, as the RotS novelization tells us, "tremendous reserves" of force energy that Obi-Wan doesn't have.

And it's not just the novelization, it's the entire prequel trilogy that tells us Anakin is stronger in the Force.

*Say what you will about Bob Brown, the man understands swordplay, as far as I'm concerned I see no reason why people are perfectly willing to use SoD when it comes to such things as speed or firepower, but when we talk about sword fighting they fall back on 'but in the novelisation!!!!'

Bob Brown has always hated any canon information he doesn't like- such as the entire prequel trilogy. He looks at the Vader vs Obi-Wan fight and says "Obi-Wan could hold Vader off all day" without giving a hint of thought as to whether he can maintain that sort of defence indefinitely, because a battle between Jedi is a battle of not just raw skill but also the *Force*. When Vader refers to Obi-Wan's "powers" as being weak, that's exactly what he means. Given how quickly Count Dooku (over 20 years Obi-Wan's senior by the time of ANH) and Qui-Gon (Obi-Wan's age in TPM) can move compared to how slow Obi-Wan was in ANH, it's quite possible that Vader was restricting his movements in the same manner that he attempted against Dooku back in AotC (AotC novel).

[Vympel]

Just timing the fights-

On PowerDVD,

Obi-Wan is kicked off at 1.50.48, and the shields close in between Qui-Gon and Maul at 1.51.33, so 75 seconds.

After the shields open, the fight between Qui-Gon and Maul lasts almost exactly 30 seconds- from 1:54:28 to 1:54:38, by my reckoning. Qui-Gon is also clearly on the defensive, constantly moving back a few steps to try and right himself after his first initial charge fails. There's a very clear change in manner in the two combats- Darth Maul only stops giving ground when Obi-Wan has no chance of getting near them.

[Hedgehog's Roommate]

In Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter it describes how Maul has to kill a Jedi master and his Padawan in oreder to keep the upcoming blockade secret. IIRC he's not happy that the fight has to be short and quick. He also describes disappointment that he's not facing the best of the Jedi. In his fight with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan he doesn't have these restrictions. He can take his time and enjoy the fight. He strikes me as the sort who would take a lot of pleasure in drawing it out. He even went so far as to mortally wound QG without killing him. Seems he's a bit of a sadist, go fig.